Brazil : what's next ?

[Easo]

So yeah, there are plenty of room for indians here.

Ah, yes, they had plenty of room before too. Surely they can give some more?
/s

[igualitarist]

Sure, if you want to ignore the other Brazilian opinions I already posted here, If you want to ignore how much of a fascist that guy is, its really clear why nobody should you seriously on this, even if you live in Brazil.

But hey, enjoy the Amazon while it lasts.

Trust me, i've already heard those opinions more than you can imagine. For the first time since 1989 Brazil had to choose between two extremely different projects of nation, since then social democrats and socialists have being dominating brazilian politics. Brazil was a politically dormant country, people didnt talk about politics and didnt care about it until recently, more precisely, until 2013.

So, i can safely tell you our democracy is more active and vibrant than ever. There's true exchange of ideas going on here, and the left lost the the right won. That's democracy, easy when you are winning, harsh when you are losing.

About the Amazon, that's just fearmongering. The nationalists are among the brazilian "factions" that have the biggest love and proud for the Amazon.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems these days if the rich and educated vote for you, it is indication of the right choice. If they don't, it is because they are out of touch. Seems convenient

That's pretty funny. Also, its funny how the world never gave a fuck about brazilian politics, and suddenly started to pay attention on us. While in Venezuela, the world only changed its gaze to them after people started to starve to death, or victim of political killing.

Meanwhile, PT was working hard to degrade Brazil into a Venezuelan-like shithole, and for the world's opinion, that was great !

[Deleted]

That's pretty funny. Also, its funny how the world never gave a fuck about brazilian politics, and suddenly started to pay attention on us. While in Venezuela, the world only changed its gaze to them after people started to starve to death, or victim of political killing.

Meanwhile, PT was working hard to degrade Brazil into a Venezuelan-like shithole, and for the world's opinion, that was great !

Well typically politics only really matter, when there is a toss up, can't exactly complain about any lack of interest before that. Venezuela being a good example, not of particularly much interest until it went wrong, because that's how news work, just the same that we don't report if everything is as it was yesterday.

Not sure where you have somehow gathered that we sat here and said that it was all flowers and roses. Just as you probably couldn't tell a damn thing about the economic situation in my country, because it isn't exactly of great interest in the global news.

[igualitarist]

Ah, yes, they had plenty of room before too. Surely they can give some more?
/s

They can be integrated to society too, many of them want this, instead of having to drink dirty water every day and dying of malaria.

There are some reserves I've visited, the indians receive welfare from the government, use the money to get drunk as fuck, and sleep all day long. Oh, and sell some souvenirs for tourists.

So, whats left are those indians that are still pure, and they got their reserves. Like, tribes with a few hundres people having a reserve bigger than Belgium. Coincidentally many of those reserves are in border areas (of which drugs enter in Brazil), or sitting right on top of huge mineral veins. Coincidentally too, international NGO'S are pushing for this.

Meanwhile, illegal logging is a pretty common thing on those reserves because the government can't police them, without the express authorization of FUNAI - an government agency that deals with indian subjects. Sounds like a great way to preserve the forest !

[Animaneth]

You mean the corruption that every single politician was part off, but they only went after the left-wing parties? Yeah, I remember that.


But typical liberal shit to blame the left for fascism, Don't you guys get tired of pulling the same shit for 80 years? All I see from libs is blame 'the left!!!' instead of actually fucking doing something about it.

so basically, you blame the left for the election of a shit head as president of the biggest economy in latin america? NO. people is responsible for their choices. If Bolsonaro decides to commit a "genocide" the blood of those who die will be on the hands of those who voted for him.

It is the same BS than every other country. We do not vote for someone, we do AGAINST someone. You may dislike the PT, your prerrogative, but you can't vote such an asshole and blame it on the left. your screw ups, your shit to clean.

[JohnBrown1917]

so basically, you blame the left for the election of a shit head as president of the biggest economy in latin america? NO. people is responsible for their choices. If Bolsonaro decides to commit a "genocide" the blood of those who die will be on the hands of those who voted for him.

It is the same BS than every other country. We do not vote for someone, we do AGAINST someone. You may dislike the PT, your prerrogative, but you can't vote such an asshole and blame it on the left. your screw ups, your shit to clean.

I never blamed the left, cool off.

[igualitarist]

Well typically politics only really matter, when there is a toss up, can't exactly complain about any lack of interest before that. Venezuela being a good example, not of particularly much interest until it went wrong, because that's how news work, just the same that we don't report if everything is as it was yesterday.

Not sure where you have somehow gathered that we sat here and said that it was all flowers and roses. Just as you probably couldn't tell a damn thing about the economic situation in my country, because it isn't exactly of great interest in the global news.

Exactly, and that's what i call hypocrisy. I don't talk about politics of countries i know jack shit. I don't talk about croatian politics, for example. But suddenly, during the world cup, croatian politics experts popped up everywhere.

The same is happening here, suddenly politics experts about Brazil are everywhere, and all the time they repeat only 1 side of the history. All experts about brazilian politics being interviewd in global media are all of the same side ! Its like trying to understand the situation of USA, but listening only the republican version. Its worth saying the side they are getting their information from, is the same side that suppports Cuban and Venezuelan regimes.

So, those people who heard a guy exposing only 1 side of the whole history, think they have the expertise to do prognostics and diagnostics of the situation of a country, ignoring its context and complexities.

This shit is happening EVERYWHERE right is winning ! When left was winning in Venezuela with Chavez, before it degrades into a dictatorship, it was completely fine - no world wide uproar happened. But when the right wins, global media reaction is nothing but throwing a huge tantrum.

[Deleted]

Exactly, and that's what i call hypocrisy. I don't talk about politics of countries i know jack shit. I don't talk about croatian politics, for example. But suddenly, during the world cup, croatian politics experts popped up everywhere.

The same is happening here, suddenly politics experts about Brazil are everywhere, and all the time they repeat only 1 side of the history. All experts about brazilian politics being interviewd in global media are all of the same side ! Its like trying to understand the situation of USA, but listening only the republican version. Its worth saying the side they are getting their information from, is the same side that suppports Cuban and Venezuelan regimes.

So, those people who heard a guy exposing only 1 side of the whole history, think they have the expertise to do prognostics and diagnostics of the situation of a country, ignoring its context and complexities.

This shit is happening EVERYWHERE right is winning ! When left was winning in Venezuela with Chavez, before it degrades into a dictatorship, it was completely fine - no world wide uproar happened. But when the right wins, global media reaction is nothing but throwing a huge tantrum.

You do know that you are essentially proclaiming to consume and know all global media, right? I am not going to say that you are a hypocrite, but you are making the same folly that you claim to dislike.

I know of the former administrations failings and skeletons, I know of their current issues, and I didn't hear it from squirrels.

It is my favourite. Not only do we now deal in fake and bias news, we now also deal in news are fake and bias, because I willfully or not, ignorantly elect to only perceive it that way, because anything else wouldn't fit my narrative. It is beautiful really, news will never be objective, because my own bias disallows it to be.

[PC2]

Exactly, and that's what i call hypocrisy. I don't talk about politics of countries i know jack shit. I don't talk about croatian politics, for example. But suddenly, during the world cup, croatian politics experts popped up everywhere.

The same is happening here, suddenly politics experts about Brazil are everywhere, and all the time they repeat only 1 side of the history. All experts about brazilian politics being interviewd in global media are all of the same side ! Its like trying to understand the situation of USA, but listening only the republican version. Its worth saying the side they are getting their information from, is the same side that suppports Cuban and Venezuelan regimes.

So, those people who heard a guy exposing only 1 side of the whole history, think they have the expertise to do prognostics and diagnostics of the situation of a country, ignoring its context and complexities.

This shit is happening EVERYWHERE right is winning ! When left was winning in Venezuela with Chavez, before it degrades into a dictatorship, it was completely fine - no world wide uproar happened. But when the right wins, global media reaction is nothing but throwing a huge tantrum.

lol part of that is because there has been an 'End of History' narrative that is pretty common on the left. The idea that one side gets in power and it represents the final form of politics. Thus anytime a different party wins it's not perceived as an ebb and flow in politics but is seen as a dramatic and shocking surprise.

[Thepersona]

I wonder how many leftists will be killed before he gets overthrown.

But hey, at least it gives us another pro-Antifa argument.

considering that he wants to give the cops a blanket pardon for killing in self defense, i can see a lot of extra judicial murders there.

- - - Updated - - -

My thanks for your analysis.

I do not know anybody from Brazil, as we Croats immigrated to Chile and Argentina usually.

Demography of this forum is overwhelmingly compromised of North American and Western European populations, so it is excellent that we have members from outside these two chief demographic pillars.

I'm a descendant from croats that inmigrated to chile (my ancestors were from Brac)

- - - Updated - - -

The most educated and richest states voted for Bolsonaro, the less educated and poorest states voted for Haddad.

And still, i have to see people here pretending they know more about Brazil than the educated brazilians. The same can be said about global media, which did a terrible job when showing who Haddad and PT really are.

Trust me, we wouldn't vote in a candidate such as Bolsonaro if we didn't have the reasons to do so.

Your reasons are that the PT fucked up in a legendary way...
but bolsonaro is a piece of shit

[igualitarist]

You do know that you are essentially proclaiming to consume and know all global media, right? I am not going to say that you are a hypocrite, but you are making the same folly that you claim to dislike.

I know of the former administrations failings and skeletons, I know of their current issues, and I didn't hear it from squirrels.

It is my favourite. Not only do we now deal in fake and bias news, we now also deal in news are fake and bias, because I willfully or not, ignorantly elect to only perceive it that way, because anything else wouldn't fit my narrative. It is beautiful really, news will never be objective, because my own bias disallows it to be.

No, i am not proclaming that. When i talk about global media i mean the most relevant media outlets in the world, Like "Le Monde", "The Economist", "New York Times", "El Pais" and so.

I got tired of reading/ watching national media saying we should not vote for Bolsonaro because "Le Monde", "The Economist", "New York Times", "El Pais"... said so.

[Elba]

Goodbye to the amazon, now we can enjoy an even faster changing climate.

The only positive aspect of the whole situation. Extinct human race.

[Easo]

They can be integrated to society too, many of them want this, instead of having to drink dirty water every day and dying of malaria.

There are some reserves I've visited, the indians receive welfare from the government, use the money to get drunk as fuck, and sleep all day long. Oh, and sell some souvenirs for tourists.

So, whats left are those indians that are still pure, and they got their reserves. Like, tribes with a few hundres people having a reserve bigger than Belgium. Coincidentally many of those reserves are in border areas (of which drugs enter in Brazil), or sitting right on top of huge mineral veins. Coincidentally too, international NGO'S are pushing for this.

Meanwhile, illegal logging is a pretty common thing on those reserves because the government can't police them, without the express authorization of FUNAI - an government agency that deals with indian subjects. Sounds like a great way to preserve the forest !

Jeez, I wonder what was the cause for that? I totally cannot image it!
/s

Next you are going to tell me that illegal poaching and logging is totally not done because because you have stupidly high corruption and goverment ignoring it's own rules from time to time and everybody knows about that, yet do nothing, but because everything requires some permit and thus the poor police/army cannot catch the bad guys?
Oh please...

[CostinR]

What do people genuinely expect when it comes to politics? That after decades of things going to shit for many countries voters would just turn the other cheek around and continue voting for the same old tired establishment parties as they continue doing things exactly as they have before?

What a bloody stupid line of thought. Yes this guy is an extremist, no doubt about that seeing as you had Supreme Court judges coming out against him and in effect endorsing his opponent, but if people want to continue believing the stupidity that things would be worse by voting out the regular parties then well I've got some news for you: They are very bad as they are for a lot of people.

Hence Italy, Austria, AFD in Germany, Swedish Democrats in Sweden and now this guy in Brazil, a country so rife with murder and corruption that it's one of the worst in the world.

[Deleted]

No, i am not proclaming that. When i talk about global media i mean the most relevant media outlets in the world, Like "Le Monde", "The Economist", "New York Times", "El Pais" and so.

I got tired of reading/ watching national media saying we should not vote for Bolsonaro because "Le Monde", "The Economist", "New York Times", "El Pais"... said so.

Right, let's have a look.
The New York Times:

But as the country’s main political parties were swept up in a large-scale corruption investigation, known as Lava Jato, or Car Wash, Mr. Bolsonaro has pitched himself to voters as an anti-establishment maverick who will fight graft. And in a country traumatized by violent crime, his iron-fisted approach to law and order has appealed to voters in traditionally left-wing strongholds.

The economist:

His rival is Fernando Haddad, the nominee of the leftist Workers’ Party(pt). Its 13 years in power, from 2003 to 2016, ended in a self-inflicted economic depression and revelations that the party encouraged bribery on an unprecedented scale, in part to prolong its hold on power.

In general all the article notes on the absolute failure and corruption and how Brazil is doing poorly under the just former regime and on the front runner thereof. Is that not good enough somehow?

[igualitarist]

considering that he wants to give the cops a blanket pardon for killing in self defense, i can see a lot of extra judicial murders there.

- - - Updated - - -

Nowadays cops are oriented in Brazil to only shoot, after they are shot first. And well, in some areas controlled by the organized crime and druglords, criminals are equiped with machine guns, AK-47's, rocket launcher and army only equipment. For example, if there's a guy patrolling a slum showing off his AK-47, there's nothing police can do. The cop would have to approach the guy, be shot first, and only later use his little gun.

I am talking about this:









He wants the police to be allowed to shoot those at distance at the very moment they are detected carrying those little toys.
Yeah, human rights organization will go ape shit crazy, but everything have been tried and shit only gets worse.
Those organizations don't give a fuck about what those criminals do with it the ordinary people.

No one carrying those guns have good intentions.

Your reasons are that the PT fucked up in a legendary way...
but bolsonaro is a piece of shit

He is the wrong man, with the ideas Brazil need right now.

As i already said before, most of people would never vote for him. But on the other side, there's PT. A party that already promised to put the country into a civil war, to create bloodbathes, and to take up arms a few times since 2014 or so.

I am yet to see global media talking about this.

[Thepersona]

@igualitarist
I get that. The favelas are a shithole, and more or less a warzone. But i'm not arguing about killing drug lords or their minions in self defense. I'm saying that a blanket pardon of that characteristic is a good way to make extra judicial killings possible.
And yeah, i hope your country gets better, the level of corruption is astounding,sadly.

[igualitarist]

Right, let's have a look.
The New York Times:

The economist:

In general all the article notes on the absolute failure and corruption and how Brazil is doing poorly under the just former regime and on the front runner thereof. Is that not good enough somehow?

Yeah, and those things are pretty light about him and his party. As i said, no media ever said the 1 million dollars his party received from Muammar al-Gaddafi to help elect Lula; no media said the HUGE financial support his party gave to countries like Venezuela through illegal ways; no media said how this party hired cuban doctors to work in Brazil, while 80% of their wage would go directly to Cuba (making them work in semi slave conditions); no media said about how this party challenged brazilian justice during the last years, calling their convicted criminals hereoes of the brazilian people and calling judicial sentences against them fraudulent; no media said how they increased massively the amount of taxpayer's money that goes to the press; no media said how they created "councils" to regulate many instituitions of the Country, like the CNJ, created to politically control the justice (they also tried to create a council do control jornalists here, but failed); no media detailed the car-wash operation; no media said they used bribe the congress using taxpayer's money in order to make the congress approve all their bills (mensalão); no media said about the proximity this party has with FARC and with criminal organizations in Brazil, like PCC. Damn, i could go and on... But i am going to stop because wall of texts are not a pleasure to read.

They just said, oh, they are corrupts and made mistakes and thats all. But what matters are the details, just like they detailed every flaw of Jair Bolsonaro.

PT level of corruption is astonishing even for brazilian standards, its the most disgusting thing that happened in this country.

[Zython]

The most educated and richest states voted for Bolsonaro, the less educated and poorest states voted for Haddad.

And still, i have to see people here pretending they know more about Brazil than the educated brazilians. The same can be said about global media, which did a terrible job when showing who Haddad and PT really are.

Trust me, we wouldn't vote in a candidate such as Bolsonaro if we didn't have the reasons to do so.

Of course the rich supported Bolsonaro. Fascism serves the interests of the wealthy. That's its entire raison d'être. We are aware of your reasons. The problem is that your reasons are self-serving and depraved.

- - - Updated - - -

He is the wrong man, with the ideas Brazil need right now.

Murdering LGBT people, socialists, and further endangering the entire planet. Great ideas, indeed.

[Deleted]

Yeah, and those things are pretty light about him and his party. As i said, no media ever said the 1 million dollars his party received from Muammar al-Gaddafi to help elect Lula; no media said the HUGE financial support his party gave to countries like Venezuela through illegal ways; no media said how this party hired cuban doctors to work in Brazil, while 80% of their wage would go directly to Cuba (making them work in semi slave conditions); no media said about how this party challenged brazilian justice during the last years, calling their convicted criminals hereoes of the brazilian people and calling judicial sentences against them fraudulent; no media said how they increased massively the amount of taxpayer's money that goes to the press; no media said how they created "councils" to regulate many instituitions of the Country, like the CNJ, created to politically control the justice (they also tried to create a council do control jornalists here, but failed); no media detailed the car-wash operation; no media said they used bribe the congress using taxpayer's money in order to make the congress approve all their bills (mensalão); no media said about the proximity this party has with FARC and with criminal organizations in Brazil, like PCC. Damn, i could go and on... But i am going to stop because wall of texts are not a pleasure to read.

They just said, oh, they are corrupts and made mistakes and thats all. But what matters are the details, just like they detailed every flaw of Jair Bolsonaro.

PT level of corruption is astonishing even for brazilian standards, its the most disgusting thing that happened in this country.

No, they mention and have links to several of those things, just as they do with all articles, because you don't write a book for people to read; heck two of those are mentioned literally in just the headline quotes that I posted. The reason that they can write about Bolsonaro, is because he has said those things, if you haven't noticed, most media that entails covering global news, tend to grab the things that are clear as day, and that is what people have said, not the entire decade history of their background political situation. This isn't some new thing to be evil and bias against right wingers or conservatives, it is how media has existed for decades when it isn't doing in depth coverage, and yes it unfortunately tends to lead to a lot of coverage of loudmouths and set ups of the system, but that's the reality that exists and always have existed, but proclaiming that as a whole it somehow is against something, is clearly wrong.

It is tiresome at this point, that I have to go find sources from the media that some people proclaim is somehow lying or not reporting on something, only to find the exact thing that they say isn't there. This goes both ways I might add.