Keystone.guru: a website for planning your M+ routes

[Kethmil]

What I can't fathom is your declared hostility towards the developer. Even less when you are THAT sure that his project is shit compared to MDT.

You think is shit and that has no future? Well, that's for other users to decide, right?

I could understand you trying to friendly advice other players to try MDT instead, but saying OP "your best move would be to delete your project" is being a dick.

And for the record, you don't need to create an account on his website to check a path someone has given to you. Just literally click on an Url.

[Shakou]

What I can't fathom is your declared hostility towards the developer.

I wasn't hostile toward him. It's just not a very useful website. Have zero reason to use this, and I sincerely doubt many others will find it useful unless you just don't have MDT. It would be useful as an addon, if it were actually better than MDT. Unfortunately it has less features. You can draw on the map like MS paint in MDT, say you want to draw an arrows showing the exact place you will shroud at, you can do that in MDT, or if you want to put a specific note on the mapwith complete instructions on interrupt orders and cc directions etc, you cannot do any of that with this website. Which basically eliminates it's purpose for existing.


Watch it slowly gain all those things tho...

And for the record, you don't need to create an account on his website to check a path someone has given to you. Just literally click on an Url.

Which is literally more actions that importing a string someone sends you in-game. And it doesn't require tabbing out. Or anyone registering to a website they will rarely use.


People in here acting like installing a wow add on is hard, it's especially not now that you can just use the twitch ap to do it.

[Deleted]

People in here acting like installing a wow add on is hard, it's especially not now that you can just use the twitch ap to do it.

Everyone has a web browser. Not everyone has the Twitch app, not to mention maybe the know-how on how to install addons. Furthermore it requires them to restart the game after installing a new addon, that already is a timesink compared to just tabbing out for a second (if you don't have a second monitor)

[Caprix]

Ok now blatant lies, i spent a whole 2min looking at routes on the website and yes people wrote notes and marked location on the maps

[Zoibert the Bear]

Nope it doesn't. Why? Because it's not Method Dungeon Tools. Download it, use it. Jesus fucking Christ, you don't even need to make routes you can share strings in -game like weakauras and you also don't have to go to some website to do it which certainly isn't a really convenient in-game tool that is simple enough for anyone to use.

I mean no offense dude but frankly this a piss poor attempt to ape someone else's hard work. I mean, I for one seriously already don't like you for the fact that you're even trying to compete here (as if there is room to compete) but you're doing it in a very shady way focused on marketing more than on building a solid reputation in the community and delivering something that is not only useful but actually improves the game experience in a demonstrable way. Your website is neither more user friendly, more convenient to use and the UI/UX is not very good at all. Who gives a shit what the community thinks the best routes are? I don't enough to help The point of MDT and why it is superior in every way to what you are trying to do, is it gives players who actually know what they are doing a great tool to plan their dungeons out before going in.

Support OP, but I'm going to keep supporting Method Nnogga, and I suggest you do the same. Not only is he one of the top M+ players in the entire game, but the amount of care and expertise he brings to the table shows through in the addons, weakauras and other things he contributes to the community completely free of charge. Follow him on twitch, watch his stream, he often does patch fixes live on twitch and is an abundant resource for this kind of addon development, and all of this is just a service that you don't have to pay for in any way or doesn't require you to register on some site made by someone who isn't a known, trustworthy entity.

Hard pass. As far as I and I am sure other early adopters of MDT are concerned, the only way your website would be a remotely worthwhile effort is if you were simply providing a platform for other developers who focus on things like this to improve the M+ experience for other players.

Best advice I can give you if you intend to move forward is delete the current site and your vision for it and instead make a site where we can easily copy/paste strings from other people's MDT routes. Cuz 100% nobody who is a top M+ player is going to use or promote your tool, but you could instead cooperate with others instead of aping on their work for a cheap buck.

Haha you're such as sore anus. I bet you hate that there's more than one car model.
Infracted

[ID811717]

@Wotuu As someone trying to push high keys and using MDT for a long time, I don't see the appeal of your website in its current state. But if you manage to improve the "Route listing" page, I can see it becoming a go-to tool for M+ runners.

I really like that you already allow to indicate that a route was created for specific affixes and group setup. It might be helpful to add a text field for free-style comments (to be filled in by the author of a route), so if there are any unusual skips or pulls, they can provide a short description. But that would probably require too much moderation to be viable.

If the website gains any traction, it would be really useful to be able to associate routes to specific characters (authenticated by whatever means similar to Discord's Jeeves bot, if possible at all), and search for all routes imported by a specific top M+ player. Could also find a way to integrate the raider.io scores of route authors.

Eventually it would also be nice if one could import/export routes in between MDT and your website. It could even ignore the custom functionality, and only import/export the information about which mobs should be killed. In general, I think MDT and your website could complement each other really well, so may be it's worth contacting Nnogga and discussing any possibilities to collaborate on your projects, so that you can share some of the more tedius/factual parts of the work (such as trash mob positions and percentages).

The UI/UX feels very good.
First request : it would be lovely to be able to filter/sort according to the note and number of votes, to find out quickly the community-endorsed best routes.

That would be a good next step, indeed.

[Wotuu]

Shakou, since I'm not going to (nor feel the need to) convince you the usefulness of the website, I'm just going to answer a few of your questions for clarity's sake and leave the rest of the discussion to be. It's a shame you didn't do the research since if you actually looked around and read a bit more you'd have the answers to your questions, but alas here goes.

Why a website? Because I'm not an addon developer, I don't know Lua nor do I feel like learning it. My job gave me time to work on a project of my choice if I use work-related technologies, and since my job is in web development the choice for a website was rather clear. Besides, I make this website for fun. I enjoy programming, I enjoy using these technologies to build something cool.

I did this to make lots of money? Not really, as I said above, I enjoy programming a lot and I wanted this projected to be a full-fledged website with everything around it. Do I want to earn some money with it? Sure, time is money friend, but really if it brings in $100 a month at any point I'd be surprised. There's much better ways if I want to earn a lot of money, this just isn't one of them.

I knew when I released this that it isn't done yet. It won't ever be done and that's just fine. Has it got less features than MDT? Probably, but I don't care. There's more people on this world than top M+ runners, I'm very happy to hear lots of more casual players are finding the site useful and are enjoying it. That's why I did this.

Bottom line is, this is not a MDT vs Keystone.guru debate. I drew the comparison since it's the obvious thing to do and other people already did it for me. I literally say in the OP that you should decide for yourself which one is better for you. If you enjoy using MDT please use it. Nobody is forcing you to use a website you don't trust, like, or find in any way useful. If you don't trust it, the source code is available, you could even run your own version of it if you put in some effort.

Now that that's said, I appreciate the kind words from everyone! I'm still committed to making the website a success by adding more features as time progresses (yes, free drawing has already been asked, and I've already researched libraries I can use. It'll be in there eventually). I'm very much enjoying seeing people use the website, that makes all the effort worth it

- - - Updated - - -

@Wotuu As someone trying to push high keys and using MDT for a long time, I don't see the appeal of your website in its current state. But if you manage to improve the "Route listing" page, I can see it becoming a go-to tool for M+ runners.

I really like that you already allow to indicate that a route was created for specific affixes and group setup. It might be helpful to add a text field for free-style comments (to be filled in by the author of a route), so if there are any unusual skips or pulls, they can provide a short description. But that would probably require too much moderation to be viable.

If the website gains any traction, it would be really useful to be able to associate routes to specific characters (authenticated by whatever means similar to Discord's Jeeves bot, if possible at all), and search for all routes imported by a specific top M+ player. Could also find a way to integrate the raider.io scores of route authors.

Eventually it would also be nice if one could import/export routes in between MDT and your website. It could even ignore the custom functionality, and only import/export the information about which mobs should be killed. In general, I think MDT and your website could complement each other really well, so may be it's worth contacting Nnogga and discussing any possibilities to collaborate on your projects, so that you can share some of the more tedius/factual parts of the work (such as trash mob positions and percentages).


That would be a good next step, indeed.

Thanks for the write up! As for now you're right, the website lacks some features to make it good for people who really push keys and want to plan with more details. You have some great suggestions such as the raider.io integration, I hadn't quite thought of that before. I want to make the experience a bit more personal by for example allowing you to import your character from the armory or using battle.net integration. Things like that, you could then use raider.io scores as a filter so you can filter routes based on "only from authors with higher than xxxx r.io score". I quite like that idea.

I will add a way for users to add some free-form text as a description for their route. Perhaps a short description which may appear in the Routes page, and a longer description which will be displayed in the View page. For now I feel that authors don't get enough tools to convey some information, I'll be looking to remedy that soon. As for moderation, I think it won't be too bad. I added a "report for moderation" button for registered users, I already expected the current tools be used to draw dickbutts etc, but so far everyone has been playing nice . Besides, I don't want to let a few rotten apples spoil it for the bunch, so to say.

Import/export from/to MDT is on the list! For now I'm looking to add a few more features so the website remains useful as players start demanding more. I want to communicate with the author of MDT about it later on when I have some more time on my hands to actually work on an implementation. I also don't want to just make an integration with his addon without his consent, it'd feel wrong for some reason for me.

I think MDT and the website will complement each other as you say, I'm looking forward to that. I really appreciate you giving your opinion, especially the constructive criticism. It helps me most if people identify the weak spots which I'm blind for by this point, that way it'll improve much more much quicker. Thanks again!

[Beace]

Shakou, stop being a dick. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you can't understand why some people appreciate having something on a website instead of in-game addon, fine, don't use it.
Infracted

Choices is a good thing. There's no reason for you to act like you are. Let people use what they prefer (or god forbid, both!) and stop spreading negativity.

[Shakou]

Shakou, stop being a dick. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Nonononono you stop making personal comments about ME. YOU. It is OKAY for people not to like THINGS and express why they do not like THEM. It is NOT OKAY for YOU to personally put me down because I don't like something that you do. Get it? Thanks.

[Beace]

Nonononono you stop making personal comments about ME. YOU. It is OKAY for people not to like THINGS and express why they do not like THEM. It is NOT OKAY for YOU to personally put me down because I don't like something that you do. Get it? Thanks.

You keep spamming this thread basically saying "I don't like it I don't think anyone else should either", and you've done it in a very hostile and negative way. How about you settle with posting your opinion on it once, and leave it at that.

And as for making it personal, you've insulted OP constantly all throughout your posts in this thread.

[Shakou]

You keep spamming this thread basically saying "I don't like it I don't think anyone else should either", and you've done it in a very hostile and negative way. How about you settle with posting your opinion on it once, and leave it at that.

And as for making it personal, you've insulted OP constantly all throughout your posts in this thread.

I haven't spammed anything. You are personally insulting me. That is all that is happening here. it's oaky for people to have disagreements. You're doing nothing but dismissing what I've posted out of hand by labeling it spam and then saying I insulted the OP, I made no personal comments about him but you are simply ignorant if you think this was actually developed without any prior knowledge/experience with MDT. IF you don't like my posts don't read or respond to them but absolutely leave me the hell alone. I'm not in here harassing you telling you you're an idiot for liking the thing so bugger off.

IF OP wants constructive criticism he should answer this very simple question HOENSTLY. Why did he make a website instead of an addon if he wasn't specifically aiming to ape on someone else's hard work?

Because the choice thing people keep bringing up isn't real. It's a choice between using a thing or not, not between two things that equally fulfill the same role and are the same kinds of things.

MDT is a tool that allows people to carefully plot out every step of the dungeon ahead of time and then share the route with their other party members before they start it. This is not that at all and on top of it it is a website not an addon. And yet it is so very similar that it is extremely doubtful at best that OP started making this before MDT was a known thing (MDT was developed over a short time during beta and it's still barely heard of right now honestly) or without having a good idea of what MDT is or it's not.

I'm not some kind of idiot and I'm not mad or salty either. I genuinely do not believe this is a useful website as it is not a tool that allows top end players that would even be after such a thing to easily share detailed information about their dungeon plots. However I also recognize that many more people eat McDonald's cheeseburgers than cook a quality burger at home, even though for the prices they pay they could make more of something way better.

So I really don't like where this is going because it plays to the senses of people who do not know better. Like seriously, just download the twitch.tv app and you can install any WOW addon available from curse (which includes MDT) and update it from there. And with the same ap, you can go to any M+ streamer's twitch (such as @Jdotb, @Nnogga, or @Musclebrah just for example) and find the best routes for MDT, typically by typing !mdt or !routes in their channel. It's already a very simple thing to do. There's no way you could improve on it unless you made a better addon.

Altho certainly you could make one that just sounds better to the soulless masses out there that don't know any better and think you have to install wow addons in 2018 by downloading a zip file and extracting it into their wow addons folder or copy/pasting it into there.

I've already stated clearly, I have no problem with competition. I'm sure if anything the devs of MDT are flattered by the imitation. But I do take some issue with what seem like pretty underhanded tactics. This isn't like DBM or Bigwigs, both of those Addons were created for different reasons and they don't do exactly the same things. DBM is intended for the average WOW player and comes configured for them to plug in and use it, Bigwigs is designed for the seasoned raider to configure how they want and blend it seamlessly into their UI.

This isn't like a choice between Rolls Royce or Volkswagen, one is a high end luxury vehicle and the other is a high functioning yet affordable machine, manufactured for the masses. This isn't even like a choice between Rolls Royce and Bentley (which is essentially the Luxury alternative to Volkswagen, and both are owned by the same company). This is like a local store built and tailored for a specific group of people to fill a specific role and suddenly something very similar but streamlined and more "modern" crops up around the corner and the developer/owner claimed he never even went into the other store or heard about it.

It's like when there's a hipster clothing store with real gnarly shit you cannot find anywhere else, and it's a huge hit and all the kids go there and shop or donate their own unique gnarly shit they don't wear anymore, and then suddenly someone opens a shop around the corner that sells clothing that is tailored for same sort of demographic but is not vintage.

So I'm saying to OP, develop what you like but if you want to do an actually good thing for the community, make something that compliments the other thing not something subversive that renders it inert simply due to volume of users. And if you really just want to introduce other options, make an addon instead.

Nobody that uses MDT for what it's meant to be used for is trying to look at the thing while their running keys anyways.

[Calfredd]

-Snip-

Instead of wasting everyone's time with your hostile drivel, you could go make a crap thread that gets locked since you seem to be good at those.

[Beace]

I haven't spammed anything. You are personally insulting me. That is all that is happening here. it's oaky for people to have disagreements. You're doing nothing but dismissing what I've posted out of hand by labeling it spam and then saying I insulted the OP, I made no personal comments about him but you are simply ignorant if you think this was actually developed without any prior knowledge/experience with MDT. IF you don't like my posts don't read or respond to them but absolutely leave me the hell alone. I'm not in here harassing you telling you you're an idiot for liking the thing so bugger off.

You've done nothing but hate on OPs work, I dunno how you think that's not personal. It's not enough that you have to say over and over again how you don't like it, you actively try to make others not use it as well.

I'll say it again, you're acting like a dick. Maybe you don't see it, but I do, as does everyone else here. If you don't understand why, maybe you need to take a step backwards and think how what you write looks to someone other than yourself.

Anyway, I'm done here, it's getting off topic. OP deserves more respect than that for his work and his thread here.

[Shakou]

You've done nothing but hate on OPs work, I dunno how you think that's not personal.

Because I'm criticizing the work not the person, genius. What is literally (in the actual sense of what literally actually means) meant by personal insult is that you are insulting the person. I am not making any personal derogatory comments about him, you are making a ton about me. This is same straight up MAGA/Brexit logic right here. Mind your own business lol. Worry about YOU. Stop bothering me.

[AgilityTank]

I mean, I for one seriously already don't like you for the fact that you're even trying to compete here (as if there is room to compete) but you're doing it in a very shady way focused on marketing ...

Nonononono you stop making personal comments about ME. YOU. It is OKAY for people not to like THINGS and express why they do not like THEM. It is NOT OKAY for YOU to personally put me down because I don't like something that you do. Get it? Thanks.

You are so far from self-aware it's insane. You came in to this thread with your little talons out and have been acting like a childish cunt. Grow up.
Infracted

[Azlo]

I don't understand how you don't see that a website is incredibly more useful than anything else.

Think of something like Discord. How difficult was it to ask people to get into your Mumble/Ventrilo/Teamspeak or whatever other software before this? You always have those stragglers, you need to pay for a server. Making discord into a website was basically the best thing that happened to voice communications. Now literally EVERYONE can just paste a URL and boom - voice is working.

Back to this site, I'm at work right now thinking about M+ just because I have some free time. I can dick around in this, and then take a picture and send it to my discord chat for when I get home and can play. Or I can just send a URL to someone through another chat application. The fact that it's a website and not an add-on is a HUGE benefit.

I can't use twitch at work, but I can sure as hell use internet explorer. I can't open up WoW at work either and play around in MDT. In the middle of a dungeon run, I'd rather glance at my 2nd monitor than to open up MDT.

There are so many use cases for a website that it actually bothers me that you're so narrow minded and you can't see it. I can only imagine you are getting paid by Method in some way.

[Leberman]

Because I'm criticizing the work not the person, genius. What is literally (in the actual sense of what literally actually means) meant by personal insultis that you are insulting the person. I am not making any personal derogatory comments about him, you are making a ton about me. This is same straight up MAGA/Brexit logic right here. Mind your own business lol. Worry about YOU. Stop bothering me.

This is not criticizing, its more of bashing and insulting OP's opinion and work! If you can't see it, either you are really big headed or brainless.

I mean no offense dude but frankly this a piss poor attempt to ape someone else's hard work. I mean, I for one seriously already don't like you for the fact that you're even trying to compete here
---
Support OP, but I'm going to keep supporting Method Nnogga, and I suggest you do the same.

---

Because they're not plebs. The point of MDT is not to convenience you in the way McDonald's conveniences you over making a burger at home or going to a nice restaurant. It is to give you a good tool to use so you can plan your dungeons out with your group before you put your keystone in.

Ppl up in here acting like "Oh man I can do this at work, wow so convenient! And I don't have to inconvenience my casual friends by having them download an addon, I can just inconvenience them by having them join a website they're never going to use." lol.

IF OP wants constructive criticism he should answer this very simple question HOENSTLY. Why did he make a website instead of an addon if he wasn't specifically aiming to ape on someone else's hard work?

So let me ask you a question here, why do you use third-party tools such as an app or some website to sim your character, huh? Why not use the addon that its convenient rather than sending players to some shady website? (same as transmog addon+website) It's the same thing here. (personal preference, its there, respect it)

From what I can see, you seem to be a problem here because you don't agree with other poster's opinion here on this topic and trying to force your opinion onto them by either bashing them or insulting them.

[MechaCThun]

We are hitting levels of derailment unseen in some time.

[Asrialol]

Such a shame people like Shakou have to bash people's work due to fanboyism towards Method. His posts in this thread is absolutely disgusting. Not only bashing the site, but also stating he doesn't "like" the person behind the site.. Disgusting. Absolutely horrible.

And then he dares to cry when people offend him, when he's being a complete asshat himself. Calling people "genius", etc.

This is honestly, by far the most gut-wrenching shitposter I've ever seen on this forum.

I feel sorry for the OP. The site seems great.

Edit: Just checked this guys post history. Jesus.

[Shakou]

Jesus. Most of you are now discussing me and getting really personal and not even talking about the thing. Guys, it's okay if you like this thing. Stop trying to dogpile on me because I don't, it's perfectly fine for people not to like something and express why they don't.