[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Timester]

He didn't burn Lordaeron, but whatever.
What are you arguing here?

No? I sure remember Warcraft II otherwise, and remember, Saurfang IS the PC in WCII.

[Syegfryed]

If she cheated, she would lose the Horde. Remember how Magatha lost the tauren?

she would not rly, first maybe she do in a way people would not notice, and two, they would still follow her by fear, like they did with gul'dan in the movie ( notcanon i know)

Are you? Remember how Garrosh was written by two entirely different teams? I sure do and could have been easily went the other way.

maybe you don't know how blizzard is stubborn and rare go back with her decisions, and they set things far ahead

so yeah, its just one of those unless they pull thrall from their asses

Yeah that's an instant disqualifier for Warchief, for sure

one of the disqualifies, good think Garrosh had tattoos to overthrow his baldness

[Gorsameth]

Pretty much. Such a disappointment to see the dev of his character take this turn....

I understand you don't like it but this is actually in character for Saurfang.

He has always been wary of the Horde returning to its dark days. Saurfang was there, he still has nightmares of what his people did under the influence of Mannaroth's blood and he would grudgingly work with his enemy to stop the Horde descending back into darkness.

A Saurfang that stands besides Sylvanas would be a much bigger departure from his character then this.

[Timester]

she would not rly, first maybe she do in a way people would not notice, and two, they would still follow her by fear, like they did with gul'dan in the movie ( notcanon i know)

That's why Lothar managed to get away from the Horde, when Gul'dan was yelling to the Horde to kill him?

No, the Horde doesn't follow leaders by fear, they follow by honor.

[Wildberry]

I believe that even if she lost a Mak'gora Sylvanas would refuse to give up her position. She would Blight her allies, use the Forsaken to defend herself, and become a tyrant. That's her character - she's manipulative and scheming, and always has a backup plan. She wouldn't just go away, and she would take down anyone who opposed her.

You've forgotten how incompetent Sylvanas is. She blighted Gilneas, they still managed to force a ceasefire.

Sylvanas is a schemer, sure. Fortunately, her schemes rarely pan out well for her.

Plus any innate abilities.

This is debateable.

abilities happen to be insanely powerful, grow every time Blizz needs her to do something cool, and centre around the fact that she's already dead. So how does she lose exactly?

The same way the leader of the Annihilan, the Legion's shock troops, lost to an Orc with an axe?

But that wasn't the argument. You asked who wanted this. Evidently, a lot of people. You calling them dumb does not change this fact.

Here's what you don't understand: People who are enthralled by the "cool, new cinematic" don't necessarily want it. Do you remember those who complimented the WoD cinematic only to go on and call the expansion premise bad? I do!

[Timester]

I understand you don't like it but this is actually in character for Saurfang.

He has always been wary of the Horde returning to its dark days. Saurfang was there, he still has nightmares of what his people did under the influence of Mannaroth's blood and he would grudgingly work with his enemy to stop the Horde descending back into darkness.

A Saurfang that stands besides Sylvanas would be a much bigger departure from his character then this.

Then why Orgrim stood againt Gul'dan and the Shadow Council and managed to get the Horde back and fought the Alliance at the same time? AND Saurfang was there all the way to know it?

[Deleted]

Where mah Horde gone?!

[Evilfish]

I understand you don't like it but this is actually in character for Saurfang.

He has always been wary of the Horde returning to its dark days. Saurfang was there, he still has nightmares of what his people did under the influence of Mannaroth's blood and he would grudgingly work with his enemy to stop the Horde descending back into darkness.

A Saurfang that stands besides Sylvanas would be a much bigger departure from his character then this.

It's not. They should have just made him challenge her to a 1v1 and if he won, hurrah, much orc flexing. If she won he'd sacrifice himself for the Horde and that would be an actual rallying cry against Sylvanas.

Instead he acts like Sylvanas and hopes his enemies take each other out. This is not the way Saurfang should die or become warchief if this is what's happening. Still think this is a red herring.

[Dagoth Ur]

So? Why are people so terrified of Anduin? Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Sometimes that "hard choice" is indiscriminate casual murder. Sometimes that "hard choice" is working with someone who just wants the war to end, to get what you need to achieve your own goals.

It's just pragmatic.

It's the knowledge that we could've gotten the same result without huge Anduin-shaped-stain on it is what hurts the most. I guess certain someone just couldn't have helped it not including our treasure in something as beautiful as returning Horde its long lost honor back.

[Gorsameth]

Sure, if you remember that Saurfang burned Stormwind and Lordaeron once before.

Under the influence of Mannaroth's blood.

Remember Saurfang's words to Garrosh.

High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair.
High Overlord Saurfang says: Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.
High Overlord Saurfang nods.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget...
High Overlord Saurfang says: Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us!
High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...
High Overlord Saurfang pauses.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...

[Super Dickmann]

He can believe what he wants. Sylvanas not planning to burn the tree from the beginning hinges on us (and her followers) believing what she says to be true. Which you shouldn't. She's a liar, and a cheat. She knew fully well that Saurfang would spare him, and made him a scapegoat.

This line could have worked if A Good War didn't exist. Luckily it does, so we know both that Sylvanas wasn't sure whether Saurfang would kill him or not, but was surprised when he didn't do it and also that she was reeling and looking for another way to deal a moral blow to the Alliance after Malfurion survived. This is all her internal monologue.

He declines Horde help because he knows they would take him back to the Horde that he doesn't want to be a part of anymore. And he helped the Alliance where, exactly? At best, he didn't do anything to stop them, but that isn't helping them, sorry.

He spared a demigod who would go on to kill hundreds of Horde after already doing so, and admits as much in his internal monologue. He spares the human king in the hopes that he would overthrow his own warchief because he's too spineless to oppose her from within the Horde or call Mak'gora. Or even worse, he doesn't trust the Horde to side with him without outside help.

Destroying the Horde (so far) isn't the Alliance's goal. It is to end a proven threat to all life on Azeroth, both Alliance, Horde and neutral.

Destroying the Horde and appointing a puppet leader is their objective, that's what the cinematic is about. Saurfang is being freed so he can bring back 'his Horde' a Horde that would, if based around his morals, endorse the sparing of enemy war assets who killed scores of your own and the toppling of your own leader and lack the trust in itself to even be able to manage its own problems without the Alliance stepping in.

[Guildenstern]

So now we know that idiots who supported the muh honor meme are just traitors. Looking forward to hear their take on the situation, which probably would involve complete denial or justification for why it was the only choice.
Can't wait till Sylvanas kills stupid Saurfang and raises his body as a slave. Exactly the fate a traitor deserves.

[Timester]

Under the influence of Mannaroth's blood.

He was talking about the Draenei genocide. The Burning of Stormwind and the Second War happened after Orgrim took control.

[Gorsameth]

Then why Orgrim stood againt Gul'dan and the Shadow Council and managed to get the Horde back and fought the Alliance at the same time? AND Saurfang was there all the way to know it?

Mannaroth's blood. The Orcs were not themselves and the veterans are still haunted by what they did under the legion's influence.

[Powerogue]

You're assuming she actually wants to save the Horde. Big assumption.
Based on all internal monologues we've gotten thus far, she has other goals and she's never once vocalized any loyalty to the Horde in those internal thoughts. She has even expressed a lack of concern for her Forsaken in "Edge of Night".

I suppose it is an assumption based on her words, which she tailored to convincing Saurfang in A Good War.

I don't think it was lying so much as telling him the version of it that he wanted to hear. Emphasizing how they're all in this together against a common foe, rather than that her primary concern is and has always been her own survival, with the Horde's survival and cooperation being the means to the end to sustain it.

[Timester]

Mannaroth's blood. The Orcs were not themselves and the veterans are still haunted by what they did under the legion's influence.

Again, during Orgrim's rulership.

[bledgor]

This line could have worked if A Good War didn't exist. Luckily it does, so we know both that Sylvanas wasn't sure whether Saurfang would kill him or not, but was surprised when he didn't do it and also that she was reeling and looking for another way to deal a moral blow to the Alliance after Malfurion survived. This is all her internal monologue.



He spared a demigod who would go on to kill hundreds of Horde after already doing so, and admits as much in his internal monologue. He spares the human king in the hopes that he would overthrow his own warchief because he's too spineless to oppose her from within the Horde or call Mak'gora. Or even worse, he doesn't trust the Horde to side with him without outside help.



Destroying the Horde and appointing a puppet leader is their objective, that's what the cinematic is about. Saurfang is being freed so he can bring back 'his Horde' a Horde that would, if based around his morals, endorse the sparing of enemy war assets who killed scores of your own and the toppling of your own leader and lack the trust in itself to even be able to manage its own problems without the Alliance stepping in.

All of this, plus anyone that think Anduin could in any way realistic spare the horde after not one, but now a 2nd war they initiated in a few years is fucking naive (Or a certain Author at Blizzard). The citizens and generals would accept nothing less than the unconditional surrender of the horde and the dismantling of its war machines, meaning the death of the horde.

[Wildberry]

"Moral ruin is a meaningless buzzphrase" -wildberry
"Slaughter of innocents is a meaningless buzzphrase" -still wildberry

Moral Ruin is a meaningless buzzphrase, and you never bothered on offering any clarification for the latter.

I do have to ask, would anything convince you that Sylvanas needs to be stopped?

Oh look, the poster that struggles with basic facts continues to struggle with basic facts. I'm not pro-Sylvanas and I'd be more than happy to root against her if Saurfang weren't a traitor and alliance collaborator. There is an institution in the Horde already for getting rid of bad Warchiefs. Saurfang witnessed Doomhammer use it, he can use it himself. Not make a dream team with Warcraft's spiritual liege Anduin Wrynn.

If you think I'm remotely pro-Undead High Elf leading the Horde you need to acquaint yourself with reality.

You've tiptoed and made excuses at every possible opportunity to avoid answering the question when it came to Garrosh,

No, I've pretty explicitly stated that Garrosh did nothing wrong, and the implications you're making re: Old Gods here are blatantly false.

might be a traitor to the ranks of sylvanas but he will be a hero to the true hordes

Nope, he's still a traitor to them, too.

That's why Lothar managed to get away from the Horde, when Gul'dan was yelling to the Horde to kill him?

No, the Horde doesn't follow leaders by fear, they follow by honor.

The movie isn't canon, though.

Mannaroth's blood. The Orcs were not themselves and the veterans are still haunted by what they did under the legion's influence.

Doomhammer wasn't under the thrall of Mannoroth's Blood, considering he didn't drink.

[Gorsameth]

He was talking about the Draenei genocide. The Burning of Stormwind and the Second War happened after Orgrim took control.

Mannaroth's curse was not broken until his death by Grom's hand.
The Horde was still under the influence of Mannaroth's blood during the First and Second War.

[Stormdash]

Blizzard are complete fools if they think their Horde players will ever accept Saurfang as righteous good or honorable if he collaborates with Anduin in this war regardless of Sylvanas.

If they wanted a split faction or loyalty within the Horde, they basically needed Saurfang to just go beast mode after Anduin admits he can't stop her and say "fine I'll do it myself" and escape Stormwind in echo of Doomhammer escaping the Capital City.

That was utterly disappointing, with the asterisk that there is still a chance for them to depict him simply taking advantage of the opportunity to get out of the Stockades here but is going to go his own way quickly.