Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[Friendlyimmolation]

It amazes me some people don't see it, lol.

Canon lore disagrees with you. You can "see" that the earth is flat, doesn't make it true.

[Skeletov]

They could be if Blizzard finally tried to do something interesting with them. It's like they're afraid if they take Alliance out of their comfort zone even a little bit, whole faction will collapse on itself or something. That's why majority of time, it seems like Alliance players have to peek over the fence, in the neighbours' yard, where all the interesting stuff is happening.

Don't have to tell me, I'm all for that.

[Zora-Prime]

Do you think
Vol'jin or Thrall would authorized either one to be used?

They wouldn't, know why? because they're horrible warchiefs and the horde was way weaking under their rule than it is now.
you need to separate real life morality from video game morality. Sylvanas has a big gun so she will use it. The alliance outnumbers the horde by a large margin, should we politely ask them to bring less soldiers to make the fight more "Honorable".

I'm so sick of the word honor i swear....

[Verdugo]

IIRC, only 2 WMD's have been used, both by Horde leaders. Garrosh's Mana Bomb, and Sylvanas' Blight. Do you think
Vol'jin or Thrall would authorized either one to be used?

Would you consider this honorable?

If yes why.

[Deleted]

Your cherry picking memory that overlooks when Sylvanas was a traitor (and to a degree, still is) is funny though.
What's your head cannon like I wonder?



Yes, his actions are by defintion traitorous, but keep in mind the intention vs. her own. He's doing it for the Horde's best interest, she's just using it
for herself, which again, isn't what the Horde is about. That's the same mistake Garrosh made.



The thing is, he just wants to get rid of Sylvanas. Not the Horde. Even Anduin, does not want to kill all Horde etc. So
"defeating his own faction" is not true.

1) No amount of comparison's with Sylvanas's past treachery compares even remotely in terms of seriousness and consequences to what Saurfang has done and continues to do
2) No amount of personal opinion of Sylvanas changes the fact that what Saurfang has done makes him a traitor of the highest order

[Tiwack]

Just wait over on team blue, NE or some gnome will start taking it too far for Anduin as well

[Friendlyimmolation]

Just wait over on team blue, NE or some gnome will start taking it too far for Anduin as well

Anything over them begging Anduin for forgiveness.

[Zulkhan]

IIRC, only 2 WMD's have been used, both by Horde leaders. Garrosh's Mana Bomb, and Sylvanas' Blight. Do you think
Vol'jin or Thrall would authorized either one to be used?

You make it sound like the Blight was this mysterious and terrible secret when in reality it was openly carried around in Northrend.

[Shampro]

Saurfang is a bleh at this point. I used to really like him, specially back in Wrath. That cinematic was just...wat. He apperantly doesn't have the balls to challenge her when we went to free him at the start of BFA, even if it leads to his martyr death, he needs the Alliance's morale.

I don't care if Sylvanas is a villain or w/e the hell, I'll choose that side to get a more interesting story than the Saurfang '' mah honor, here we go again'' rebellion. Maybe I'll do it in another character to get the other toy, but in terms of interest, nah, it's a snoozefest.

[Obvious10]

This thread existed before, but lets see where the Horde stands after the cinematic!

Personally, I lost the respect for Saurfang. Even though I dont agree with Sylvanas, as Horde player I would still stand with Sylvanas, with faction!

Shoot it boys!

I never liked Sylvanas, but after the burning of the tree I simple hate her as a Troll-family player, so I just want to get rid of her and stay in Horde.
I do not know enough about the history of Saurfang, but to me he's just too old to become the next warchief, but he can play a role in clearing the path for the next warchief (not Thrall).
Perhaps Saurfang can start some kind of a guerilla against Sylvanas.... and die in te process perhaps, so he can have his honorable death perhaps???

Also, I do not see him as a traitor (yet) just because of Anduins invitation, we still do not know how this will evolve....or do we?
a) To me it's ok, if Anduin would release Saurfang, so he can start the rebellion against Sylvanas (Finally! Hehe).
b) But, I would really really dislike it (=get pissed) if he would work and fight next to alliance, but I 'm for sure he never would. For the Horde.

So, just let him free, so he can start the rebellion, please.


About this rebellion, I'm sorry to say, but I'm really surprised we still didn't see anything yet about any inside Horde-guerilla actions against Sylvanas ... I would really really really love it, need it.
I absolutely had expected way more dissension and revolt about Sylvanas burning the tree from Druids, most Shamans, Tauren, Cenarion Circle etc ...

And, I would have loved it, if Blizz would have given me the choice to NOT burn the tree and start an anti-campaign-storyline from the beginning!!! Horde Divided.
Why does Blizz expect me, as a Troll-family, to just follow some stupid action from a dead bitch? Really I do not know.

I'm, have a proud Troll-family, travelled Azeroth forth and back many times, in present and past,
fought too many battles and wars, even in space,
I studied with, and learned from many creatures, friends, foes, eternals, dragons and more.
I even fought side by side with those who once were enemies..... more then once.
Why Blizzard, is there still no other option then blindly following Sylvanas ???

As a Priest, following the path of Light, How would-could I ever support Sylvanas tree-buring action and still work with and on the path of Light??????
As a healer of he Light, How could i ever do and support this genocide?
Same as a druid, as a hunter, as a paladin, as a shaman, monk.
Perhaps I could expect such deeds perhaps? ... from a warlock, DK, DH, warrior, rogue...??
sidestep...mmmm about Dk's, controlled by Bolvar through Lich kings helm...so Bolvar secretly supports Sylvanas action and is complicit about NE's genocide???
So, Malfurion en co will clash with Anduin, cause he knows about Bolvar role???


But no way a healer on the path of Light (Priest-Pally), or a follower of nature (Druid-Shaman-monk) would allow Sylvanas action, this genocide, this destruction of nature, this kind of evil. Even he/she is a Troll. Because it simple just does not work in that way. You can not follow the path of Light were you do healing and save people AND at the same time you support the evil path of useless destruction, genocide, without any treat to your person, where there is no situation like defending yourself to an overpowering enemy, none of this, just useless destruction, genocide, just evil.

But, above all your other nice and good work and storylines (Thank you Blizz!),
I just want a big fat nasty guerilla against Sylvanas, a.s.a.p. please!
To me, anything else is a ... go fish.
sorry

ps:
At the moment I do not care who should become the next warchief, but a small suggestion... me perhaps your honoroble player who is exalted with many?
I trust Blizz they will find/create an Honorable warchief, thx for that.

And we can still fight with/against Alliance about resources, np, but we both will fight harder against a common enemy.
...
Perhaps there will be more and more Goblins missing in Silithus? Who cares about Goblins? ;P
And perhaps Brann will tell us there is something nasty happening, growing, created or whatever.... perhaps a resurrection? of Qiranji bosses. Ahn'Qiraj next level??

[sam86]

NEITHER

I am TIRED of needing the Alliance to be our moral compass. But I'm ALSO tired of being Baby-eating evil. (No, Sylvanas, burning down the tree of civilians to 'kill hope' was not pragmatic!)

Unsubbed and plan to stay that way.

same, and i want to add that Saurfang used to be my most favorite orc added in wow

[KrakHed]

same, and i want to add that Saurfang used to be my most favorite orc added in wow

I'm failing to see where people are getting the impression that Anduin or the Alliance are acting as Saurfang's moral compass.

Can someone point me to which morals are being externally pushed upon Saurfang? Can someone point me to any point of morality the two discuss at all? It seems to me that Anduin has simply let Saurfang go to act upon his own morals, with minimal interference.

This conversation is simply a mutual, "I prefer you over Sylvanas", with Anduin telling Saurfang to go be the Horde's moral compass, because Anduin can't.

Everything else seems to be paranoid ramblings of people reading way too much into things.

- - - Updated - - -

b) But, I would really really dislike it (=get pissed) if he would work and fight next to alliance, but I 'm for sure he never would. For the Horde.

So, just let him free, so he can start the rebellion, please.

He's probably not going to be fighting for the Alliance, or alongside Alliance troops, unless something comes up like N'zoth or whatever. Anduin isn't interfering, nor has he even revealed the fact that he's involved. I don't think Anduin wants to be the guiding light for the Horde, nor do I think he's trying.

Chances are, Saurfang actually saved the Horde by leaving. Where Anduin could have been mere weeks away from beating Sylvanas, he will wait for Saurfang instead. Trading away his own advantages for his ideals.

[Obvious10]

He's probably not going to be fighting for the Alliance, or alongside Alliance troops, unless something comes up like N'zoth or whatever. Anduin isn't interfering, nor has he even revealed the fact that he's involved. I don't think Anduin wants to be the guiding light for the Horde, nor do I think he's trying.

Agree

Chances are, Saurfang actually saved the Horde by leaving. Where Anduin could have been mere weeks away from beating Sylvanas, he will wait for Saurfang instead. Trading away his own advantages for his ideals.

Well.... this is my wish as a Troll player; attacks from inside the Horde to Sylvanas, and I do not care about Anduin, this is internal, we should take care of this.

I just want a big fat nasty guerilla against Sylvanas, a.s.a.p. please!
To me, anything else is a ... go fish.
sorry

[sam86]

I'm failing to see where people are getting the impression that Anduin or the Alliance are acting as Saurfang's moral compass.

its not about them, it is about obeying a faction u know hate u for just existing, Anduin doesn't hate orcs for exist, but Anduin is probably the only human who thinks so, rest of alliance whatever race hate horde for just exist, as shown in many older stories
4 horde races are literally forged because alliance tried to genocide against them for exist, with 5th just not be near anyone and the 6th is alien, alliance history of racism (that is stupidly 'absent' this exp) is very well known
Saurfang right now is helping a faction that he knows hate him for just being him, I said it multiple times back in MoP if i can chose to be with Garrosh i'd, not because Garrosh is great, he is hitler orc version, but because Garrosh always wanted what is best for horde, yeah he was wrong in all that since MoP, but that what he did want, alliance on other hand, only Anduin want that, even Varian only did that because he is a 'good daddy' and nothing else
I'd die with Nazgrim if i could than to ever stand with Jaina (can't believe i say that now...heh)

[KrakHed]

its not about them, it is about obeying a faction u know hate u for just existing, Anduin doesn't hate orcs for exist, but Anduin is probably the only human who thinks so, rest of alliance whatever race hate horde for just exist, as shown in many older stories
4 horde races are literally forged because alliance tried to genocide against them for exist, with 5th just not be near anyone and the 6th is alien, alliance history of racism (that is stupidly 'absent' this exp) is very well known
Saurfang right now is helping a faction that he knows hate him for just being him, I said it multiple times back in MoP if i can chose to be with Garrosh i'd, not because Garrosh is great, he is hitler orc version, but because Garrosh always wanted what is best for horde, yeah he was wrong in all that since MoP, but that what he did want, alliance on other hand, only Anduin want that, even Varian only did that because he is a 'good daddy' and nothing else
I'd die with Nazgrim if i could than to ever stand with Jaina (can't believe i say that now...heh)

Jaina was someone who once stood with the Horde against her own family. I'm not going to hate her for being upset with how her sacrifice was repaid. In fact, I hope she and Rexxar have a good long chat about some important shit, and finally clear the air for all the insane misconceptions they both have.

As for Saurfang, I have one question. Who is he obeying? Is he obeying someone?

Right now, Anduin and Saurfang's goals overlap. Things may turn out quite different when they no longer do. Saurfang neither loves nor hates the Alliance, and is plenty willing to fight them. Yet he's a General who has commanded Alliance troops before as the leader of the Might of Kalimdor. 7th Legion Soldiers have definitely taken orders issued by Saurfang at some point in their careers, ironically enough.

In short, Saurfang isn't afraid of working with the Alliance. The Alliance has literally worked for him before. He's lived long enough that he likely full well knows Jaina's sacrifice at Theramore, and how she helped purge Grom of the worst of his demonic corruption.

Saurfang, naturally, would not have the perspective of the Alliance being his ultimate enemy. Merely an occasional one, and one he's willing to fight when it's his enemy. Right now, he sees Sylvanas as his enemy. For whatever crimes the Alliance has done in the past, nothing it's done recently has been particularly offensive. They've been treating the Horde with kid gloves.

That could change in the future, but it's not like Anduin has asked for anything he doesn't already want to do. He's not following anyone's instructions, nor has he been given commands. Anduin let him out, and then covered his tracks. From the Alliance.

Hell, before the 7th Legion was the 7th Legion, they were Saurfang's Might of Kalimdor. Maybe that's what we'll get by the end.

Saurfang being the one the united forces follow in the next great conflict, not Anduin.

[arcaneshot]

It really isn't. Sylvanas absolutely planned on using the Blight on everyone, her allies included. Putress beat her to it,
and you can't honestly believe she never planned to. Keep in mind that Garrosh had explicitly stated for her to cease
all uses of the Blight. She *STILL* used it against the Worgen, and when one of Garrosh's generals asked, some other
Forsaken stated that it was a "diluted" version, and that she would **NOT** create that "kill all" Blight without
permission.

Which as we knew, she still did. Behind all their backs, and it showed.

You can't paint Saurfang as a worse traitor when she was literally sitting on a WMD and even used it against
the Horde's wishes. The Blight is especially dishonorable, and had there been no creation of it, maybe the
Wrath Gate would've ended differently?

You're making a giant leap between "insubordinate" and "traitor."

in·sub·or·di·nate
defiant of authority; disobedient to orders.

trai·tor
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

The problem is Sylvanas has yet to betray the Horde while you can factually claim that Saurfang is a deserter.

[Jastall]

Jaina was someone who once stood with the Horde against her own family. I'm not going to hate her for being upset with how her sacrifice was repaid. In fact, I hope she and Rexxar have a good long chat about some important shit, and finally clear the air for all the insane misconceptions they both have.

As for Saurfang, I have one question. Who is he obeying? Is he obeying someone?

Right now, Anduin and Saurfang's goals overlap. Things may turn out quite different when they no longer do. Saurfang neither loves nor hates the Alliance, and is plenty willing to fight them. Yet he's a General who has commanded Alliance troops before as the leader of the Might of Kalimdor. 7th Legion Soldiers have definitely taken orders issued by Saurfang at some point in their careers, ironically enough.

In short, Saurfang isn't afraid of working with the Alliance. The Alliance has literally worked for him before. He's lived long enough that he likely full well knows Jaina's sacrifice at Theramore, and how she helped purge Grom of the worst of his demonic corruption.

Saurfang, naturally, would not have the perspective of the Alliance being his ultimate enemy. Merely an occasional one, and one he's willing to fight when it's his enemy. Right now, he sees Sylvanas as his enemy. For whatever crimes the Alliance has done in the past, nothing it's done recently has been particularly offensive. They've been treating the Horde with kid gloves.

That could change in the future, but it's not like Anduin has asked for anything he doesn't already want to do. He's not following anyone's instructions, nor has he been given commands. Anduin let him out, and then covered his tracks. From the Alliance.

That's how I view it as well. Saurfang has been through too much to view the world as a simplistic red vs blue prism. The Alliance is not his friend, but that does not mean they are always his enemy. When Anduin launches his tirade about honor and innocent lives and other saintly concerns, Saurfang shuts him up and clearly says he does what he does for the Horde. He makes no bargain and accepts no oversight nor leverage. Anduin, of his own volition, decides to help him after it becomes clear that they have a mutual foe and converging interests. I thought the entire thing was well made and not really a case of Saurfang being subservient to an Alliance character, beyond the surface presentation.

Of course in all that he's a traitor... but to the Horde, or just Sylvanas? IMO one has to differentiate the two, the Warchief is not the entire Horde, especially a Warchief such as this who deep down does not care about the Horde one bit. Saurfang made mistakes in how he went about this; he should not have hesitated to kill Malfurion, nor should he have simply given up on internal reformation so quickly in favor of trying to get himself killed. But his heart is in the right place and he's looking for solutions now, wherever they might lie.

And that makes him a far more interesting character than Saint Anduin or Warchief Genocide to me.

[Gref]

I am a real saurfang fan but darkshore ingame cinematic totally made me battleshout at home.

It was so god damn epic how tyrande was standing there with those eyes and how nathanos said "we will hold this ground for the horde" and the orc put her helmet calmly. so i am in slyvannas now.

ps; god damn malfurions action was cool but his voice is retarded.wtf is "we are comin'". he never speaks with that voice and never her hi omitting a "g". or maybe he does but this video it kinda sucked.

[Nynthalas]

What can be considered honor in this case?
Does Sylvannas showed any honor dropping the plague on Horde or Burning World Tree?
Does Saurfang showed honor forging a alliance with "enemy"?
I'm not talking about betrayal or insubordinance, but what is seens more honorable, whats Horde Faction represent.
I mean, shouldn't our characters be way (waaaaaaay) ahead of faction conflict after the forging of the Orders and the new and powerfull threat that N'zoth is?

[KrakHed]

What can be considered honor in this case?
Does Sylvannas showed any honor dropping the plague on Horde or Burning World Tree?
Does Saurfang showed honor forging a alliance with "enemy"?
I'm not talking about betrayal or insubordinance, but what is seens more honorable, whats Horde Faction represent.
I mean, shouldn't our characters be way (waaaaaaay) ahead of faction conflict after the forging of the Orders and the new and powerfull threat that N'zoth is?

I think that Saurfang's honor is mixed into the idea of not repeating the actions of the Old Horde, from when he used to be in it. I believe Saurfang has been falling too short of his own standards, and is a bit confused as to what those standards should be. However, I'd rather he try to do something with those morals than simply give up. And I hope that in the process of doing so, he gets his head in the right place.

I don't think Anduin's involvement really factors in at all for him, except as a sign of what he can expect from the "enemy" in its current state. Which is to say, Saurfang can see that Anduin isn't going to do very much. Unless Anduin is unseated soon, or circumstances drastically change, he's not going to try conquering the Horde.

And at the same time, the moment Saurfang "spared" Anduin's life is vague. So vague that no one once ever noticed it happened until Anduin said it did.

I think we're missing a short story released alongside the patch.

Whatever the case, Saurfang isn't acting at his best quite yet. Not until he starts doing things himself, instead of waiting for someone else. It's why I think that even if Saurfang gets Thrall, Saurfang is still going to have to step up, make choices, and take action.