Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[Broken Fox]

Sylvanas and the Forsaken are already set up to do heinous shit in 8.1. Blizzard is using these cinematics because they can express emotion, so that's what they'e used for. Emotional expression.

What emotion? Disdain for a butchered character? If so they succeeded.

It’s not good.

[Amnaught]

Theyre so far to the extreme its ridiculous.

Sylvanas is too obviously the bad guy and the only good Horde character is now siding with the Alliance. Fucking bullshit. I want a warchief I can respect, like Cataclysm-Garrosh. I *hate* having to betray my faction in order to be called the hero. It was shit in Mists of Pandaria, and it's shit now. If Sylvanas doesn't get a redemption arc that still includes crushing Alliance skulls, I honestly don't know how my pride in the game will recover.

[Koraggar]

What emotion? Disdain for a butchered character? If so they succeeded.

It’s not good.

You're supposed to be exctied for High King Beiber and his NEW BEST FRIEND to come save the Horde man. Aren't you down?

[steelballfc]

2.) Hes taking steps to save the Horde, at this point he has worked with the Alliance enough to know they most likely didn't want this war, he knows that Anduin at least has some semblence of honer, and he knows that Sylvanas is going to bring ruin to all he loves. At this point his "collaboration" Is takeing an open dore and a pep talk to get off his bum and fix the problems he has instead of hoping someone else dose it for him.

He has given nothing away, caused 0 horde deaths directly or indirectly due to his involvement with the Alliance. Killing rangers in a swamp isn't collaborating with the Alliance it's a declaration of independence (which some will view as traitorous and others will view as Revolutionary) from Sylvanas.

3.) Up to the swamp he has do next to nothing (Vol'jin did way more Leading up to the mid point of MoP), after the fact one can say he is in the same boat considering the choice was do as we say or die. Both in the end are doing it to dispose of what they consider a Tyrent. Lastly what is treason now can be seen as a hero later, and the current generation of horde still has fresh memories of the last time this happened, and we already see that other members of the horde feel the same way. How many of them are waiting for the spark? the first strike? the "you know I was thinking it to, but now that your here"? Lastly, lore wise what race other then forsaken really gives a dam about Sylvanas? Maybe the bloodelves? maybe??

Unlike Garrosh who actually did things for his people other then start wars, all she has at this point is a failed first attempt at stopping the legion, a Selfish endeavor to try and claim immortality that could have backfired badly, and she started a war that is now taking a turn for the worse... If she had some long string of victories at this point, or if the nightelves had made some kind of move into the barrens before the war maybe loyalty would be higher, but as it stands I don't see it? Whats going to happen when thrall shows up and tosses his lot in with Saurfang? and then when Baine offers his support? She can say they are all traitors but who will listen?

- he him-self acknowledge the alliance as number one enemy of the horde.
- but that what he did when he let the enemy king alive in battle
-tell that the 5 horde family ( and more ) that malf killed, because he didn't kill him.

[Waynhim]

Do you know how the average orc will react when they realize Saurfang willingly stayed in a prison, who disobeyed their warchief and killed one of her men?

At the least he will have the Frotwolves in his corner. Drek'thar loathes the forsaken.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Saurfang sees the Horde as something with honor and place were the races of the Horde can survive and exist peacefully while Sylvanas sees the Horde as just a tool she can use for own ends like Garrosh. So im going to side with Saurfang.

[KrakHed]

You're supposed to be exctied for High King Beiber and his NEW BEST FRIEND to come save the Horde man. Aren't you down?

People really are just so terrified of Anduin, aren't they? Anduin is a mildly irritating character at worst. Just because he talked to Saurfang doesn't make him a mastermind guiding his every move. It's not like he gave Saurfang an Alliance army to assault Orgrimmar with.

This was a fucking talk, where Anduin presented himself as vulnerable and afraid for similar reasons to Saurfang. Developing a mutual understanding has been a thing that happened since Warcraft 3.

[Broken Fox]

People really are just so terrified of Anduin, aren't they? Anduin is a mildly irritating character at worst. Just because he talked to Saurfang doesn't make him a mastermind guiding his every move. It's not like he gave Saurfang an Alliance army to assault Orgrimmar with.

This was a fucking talk, where Anduin presented himself as vulnerable and afraid for similar reasons to Saurfang. Developing a mutual understanding has been a thing that happened since Warcraft 3.

Terrified? Can you stop crowbarring your bullshit into everything? No, he’s just lame and robs screen time from more interesting characters.

[steelballfc]

People really are just so terrified of Anduin, aren't they? Anduin is a mildly irritating character at worst. Just because he talked to Saurfang doesn't make him a mastermind guiding his every move. It's not like he gave Saurfang an Alliance army to assault Orgrimmar with.

This was a fucking talk, where Anduin presented himself as vulnerable and afraid for similar reasons to Saurfang. Developing a mutual understanding has been a thing that happened since Warcraft 3.

people are Annoyed, whenever the Horde need to do "good" it need to come from alliance side, horde can't just solve their own problem on their own.

[Wildberry]

caused 0 horde deaths directly or indirectly due to his involvement with the Alliance. Killing rangers in a swamp isn't collaborating with the Alliance it's a declaration of independence (which some will view as traitorous and others will view as Revolutionary) from Sylvanas.

Treason isn't relative. Revolutionaries, in this sense, are traitors now matter how positively their viewed.

With regard to the idea that Saurfang hasn't directly or indirectly killed any Horde members, I love how you handwave the Dark Rangers away as if they don't matter. That's not really the damning thing here, though. Instead, what's damning is that Saurfang has now spared both Malfurion and Anduin. The former is far too dangerous to be left alive under any circumstance. He spared the latter in hopes that Anduin would strike a blow against the Horde. That's indefensible.

People really are just so terrified of Anduin, aren't they? Anduin is a mildly irritating character at worst. Just because he talked to Saurfang doesn't make him a mastermind guiding his every move. It's not like he gave Saurfang an Alliance army to assault Orgrimmar with.

This was a fucking talk, where Anduin presented himself as vulnerable and afraid for similar reasons to Saurfang. Developing a mutual understanding has been a thing that happened since Warcraft 3.

People are terrified of Anduin, from an out of universe perspective, because he's a fucking blight on the setting. Proximity to him ruins otherwise enjoyable characters (as has been demonstrated repeatedly with Greymane, now Saurfang's ruined, too). It's no surprise that Horde players want that cardboard cutout as far away from our faction as possible.

Beyond that, this understanding that's been reached all but guarantees that Saurfang's going to be peddling peace after Sylvanas gets Garrosh'd. A peace, mind you, that is likely to be pretty unfavorable towards us considering how even Saurfang reflects post-Teldrassil that:

This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.

--"A Good War"

[Koraggar]

Anduin is a mildly irritating character at worst.

He was mildly irritating in MoP. The High King role flanderized him and made him insufferable, imo.

[HCLM]

How is Saurfang a traitor the shit sylvanas has done horde isn't even horde anymore, like saufang said he just wants the horde back.
the rest of the racial leaders won't say anything as they are to cowardly, or sylvanas would brand them a instant traitor to her not the horde. i mean just look at bane Taurens would never agree to any of this. as a horde player i feel forced to do anything sylvanas asks.
none of this syvlanas does for the horde just for herself.

If Saurfang killed Cryduin when he could (as stated in the cinematic), the war would end and Sylvanas would not be forced to do whay she is doing.

Also by definition, acting against your faction to harm it is treachery.

Stop crying and follow Sylvanas who is true Warchief. And not these honor crybabies.

[Whitedragon]

If Saurfang killed Cryduin when he could (as stated in the cinematic), the war would end and Sylvanas would not be forced to do whay she is doing.

Also by definition, acting against your faction to harm it is treachery.

Stop crying and follow Sylvanas who is true Warchief. And not these honor crybabies.

If he had killed Anduin the Alliance would have lost the one person willing to hold back, tell me again who would give a dam about just having the gnomes drop an irradiation bomb on org?

[Koraggar]

If he had killed Anduin the Alliance would have lost the one person willing to hold back, tell me again who would give a dam about just having the gnomes drop an irradiation bomb on org?

Anduin is also the leader of the Alliance military(for some reason). His death would've put the Alliance is disarray.

Additionally, it was noted in "Before the Storm" that, should Anduin die, the nobles of Stormwind would attempt to seize power, meaning the Alliance would also have to deal with a political crisis.

It would've put the Horde in a comfortable position to win the war, even if Anduin himself is a patsy.

[Whitedragon]

- he him-self acknowledge the alliance as number one enemy of the horde.

No he said they had the best chance of killing Sylvanas, someone he feels will destroy the horde

- but that what he did when he let the enemy king alive in battle

Yes kill the one person who may want to end this war right after he spared your life.

-tell that the 5 horde family ( and more ) that malf killed, because he didn't kill him.

Okay, this is as close as you have came but him spearing Malf wasn't done in an attempt at Alliance collusion, more in a self serving form of redemption for an honer less blow. Until the burning of the tree he was still very much pro Sylvanas's horde.

[Leih]

As soon as I saw the cinematic I had two distinct thoughts:

1) That was awesome. Wow. Anduin and Saurfang make a great pairing.

2) Oh shit, the Horde forum-warriors are going to be SALTY over this one.

[steelballfc]

No he said they had the best chance of killing Sylvanas, someone he feels will destroy the horde



Yes kill the one person who may want to end this war right after he spared your life.



Okay, this is as close as you have came but him spearing Malf wasn't done in an attempt at Alliance collusion, more in a self serving form of redemption for an honer less blow. Until the burning of the tree he was still very much pro Sylvanas's horde.

- read good war
- as aundin said, it may have ended the whole war, and spared importantly countless horde live's killed by alliance troops, let me remind you he agreed to go to war willingly.
- as @Wildberry mentioned, also the darkrangers who he killed, also the life's of all horde died after he spared the live of the king, at least this battle could have stopped.
- yes becasue honor saying let your enemy kill your people.

[Felixon]

The funny thing is,by reading the posts on forums,you might actually think,that there're actually more supporters of Sylvanas than Saurfang. The good thing is,that you can't make conclusions based on the vocal minority that Sylvanas's trusted army is, who will support any new idiotic idea she comes up with. The funny thing is,that many of those fierce Alliance haters are people,who spend most of their time in the trade chat,arguing with the others with the warmode off.

[Wildberry]

The funny thing is,by reading the posts on forums,you might actually think,that there're actually more supporters of Sylvanas than Saurfang. The good thing is,that you can't make conclusions based on the vocal minority that Sylvanas's trusted army is, who will support any new idiotic idea she comes up with. The funny thing is,that many of those fierce Alliance haters are people,who spend most of their time in the trade chat,arguing with the others with the warmode off.

[Citation Needed] for all of that.

[steelballfc]

[Citation Needed] for all of that.

i don't know where his/her information coming from, but sure.