Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[Doffen]

Wether Saurfang or Sylvanas is the traitor is all purely opinion based. We have the story so far, and we know whats happening. That is why Blizzard is doing this player agency thing with this. You can choose who to follow. The ones who will follow Sylvanas because they think she is worthy as Warchief, is just as justified as those who follow Saurfang because they think the Horde is going in the wrong direction.

So "Whos the traitor" will never really be stated as fact with the story we got so far. It's all up to each individual player to figure out whos the traitor or not. People can discuss their opinion as much as they want to, but don't pretend it is the fact just because YOU think it is.

[Dudas]

WOW, this poll is dead even......

Yeah too bad there are alliance players voting also. And that says it all when all the Alliance mains vote for Saurfang and they can barely equal the poll.

The most fair way for this vote to happen is to stop people that have an Alliance character to vote.

But that won't happen cause it's blizzard and they don't think that people that main alliance can be so dishonorable to vote in a matter that involves only the Horde.

[Gaidax]

Manduin, the man with the plan!

[Dravec]

Yeah SO EDGY MAN

And hell yeah the Sith are awesome. That’s why most TOR players play that faction instead of the bland ass Republic. I wish the Horde was more like the Sith.

Calls the Republic bland but thinks the most generic bad guy faction is awesome.

What is irony for 500, Alex?

[Deleted]

Yeah too bad there are alliance players voting also. And that says it all when all the Alliance mains vote for Saurfang and they can barely equal the poll.

We can take comfort in the fact that if Saurfang was without his Alliance support and only the relevant Horde votes were counted he would be way behind in this poll. As we've seen from exact replicas of this poll (pre cinematic) where the voters names were public, a significant portion of his support came from known Alliance posters. At the end of the day these polls are so subject to extraneous variable such as trolls, votes that shouldn't count (like Alliance ones in this case), and 1 Post alt accounts that they really are worth nothing in what they prove for either party. Regardless though, as you say - the fact that even with half of the split Horde playerbase, and probably almost all of the Alliance fanbase voting for Saurfang, that he is still just barely breaking even speaks volumes as to the true strength of Sylvanas's support.

[Deleted]

I understand the characters to know well enough that everything Saurfang has done shows him to be extremely DIS-honourable and the charges of treachery against him are both damning and obvious. To use the "if you beleive anything different to me means you are wrong" argument without any attempt to address the evidence against him, I dare say you are grasping at straws and showing a lack of understanding of said characters on your own part.

I use the argument because I neither have interest or time to explain something that should be plain obvious to someone which is so clearly a moron.

If you truly want to know, you have to pay me to educate you.

Infracted.

[Deleted]

I use the argument because I neither have interest or time to explain something that should be plain obvious to someone which is so clearly a moron.

If you truly want to know, you have to pay me to educate you.

OK well let me make it really easy for you - I'll tell you what I beleive to be the facts, and then if you disagree or feel like they can be easily disproven, you can rip them to shreds, deal?

1 - He spared Malfurion, the key component of the mission, because of his guilty conscience and selfish sense of honour. This in result directly lead to the Burning, something he fully admits to. Furthermore, he willingly does this knowing full well how many Horde lives this will cost, thus betraying them in turn.

2 - He spares the enemy again, this time at Lordaeron and letting Anduin live in the hopes he would stop Sylvanas instead and help to undermine his own faction.

3 - He deserts the Horde in a time of war when his leadership is very much needed, instead putting his own conscience before everyone the faction he supposedly loves, and furthermore purposely declines Horde help when he has the opportunity to return to them

4 - He collaborates with the same enemy leader he spared earlier by accepting Anduin's offer to let him escape in direct reference to taking down Sylvanas.

[KrakHed]

1 - He spared Malfurion, the key component of the mission

Was it? Was it really?

The look in Sylvanas’s eyes gave Saurfang pause. She was more annoyed than he would have expected. If the Horde managed to kill both Tyrande and Malfurion, yes, it would be a great victory that would weaken the Alliance, but the objective was supposed to be conquering the World Tree. That wedge would split the Alliance no matter who ruled the night elves.

Saurfang considered, not for the first time, that Sylvanas wasn’t telling him everything.

Does that matter? Saurfang asked himself.

No, he decided. She wasn’t lying about the importance of this objective, and if she had plans beyond the coming battle, well . . . she was warchief, was she not?

As far as Saurfang was concerned, it was not. The tree was the key component. Malfurion was irrelevant so long as he didn't stop them before they captured it.

This in result directly lead to the Burning, something he fully admits to.

Saurfang has a guilt complex. In his current state, he'd accept blame for the nights being too cold in Winterspring.

[Reyuna]

I just hope we get to kill Saurfang at some point in this expansion.

[Deleted]

Was it? Was it really?

As far as Saurfang was concerned, it was not. The tree was the key component. Malfurion was irrelevant so long as he didn't stop them before they captured it.

Yes it was, and Saurfang accepts full responsibility for it at the end of "A Good War":

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.

When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.

The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.

[KrakHed]

Yes it was, and Saurfang accepts full responsibility for it at the end of "A Good War":

Let me quote myself here.

Saurfang has a guilt complex. In his current state, he'd accept blame for the nights being too cold in Winterspring.

Read that three times if you must. Read the other selections from the book. Saurfang clearly doesn't know why Malfurion needs to die. It was not in his plans, he's confused about it. All he thinks matters at first is capturing the tree. After the tree burns, he feels guilt-ridden by his role in the whole event. Sylvanas's accusation that it's his fault is able to get through to him because of that.

[Deleted]

OK well let me make it really easy for you - I'll tell you what I beleive to be the facts, and then if you disagree or feel like they can be easily disproven, you can rip them to shreds, deal?

1 - He spared Malfurion, the key component of the mission, because of his guilty conscience and selfish sense of honour. This in result directly lead to the Burning, something he fully admits to. Furthermore, he willingly does this knowing full well how many Horde lives this will cost, thus betraying them in turn.

2 - He spares the enemy again, this time at Lordaeron and letting Anduin live in the hopes he would stop Sylvanas instead and help to undermine his own faction.

3 - He deserts the Horde in a time of war when his leadership is very much needed, instead putting his own conscience before everyone the faction he supposedly loves, and furthermore purposely declines Horde help when he has the opportunity to return to them

4 - He collaborates with the same enemy leader he spared earlier by accepting Anduin's offer to let him escape in direct reference to taking down Sylvanas.

Sounds like you deem a persons worth by their ability to kill. Especially when fighting someone elses fight. He is objecting to Sylvanas rule because she is pure evil. Why is she pure evil? Because she kills her own people, and not just in war, but to prevent the Horde and Alliance to enter a peace.

In the end, Saurfang sparing Anduin and Malfurion is going to benefit Azeroth big time as they are istrumental in Azeroths survival against evil forces such as the burning legion and the void. Remember, it was Malfurions trap that destroyed Archimond during the third war, thusly saving all of the mortal races. Now you make the argument that Saurfang is a traitor because he spared Malfurion? If he'd kill him, he'd be a traitor to Azeroth and in turn his own horde.

[Reyuna]

Let's hope Saurfang dies in a manner as pitiful as his son did.

[Aucald]

Red that three times if you must. Read the other selections from the book. Saurfang clearly doesn't know why Malfurion needs to die. It was not in his plans, he's confused about it. All he thinks matters at first is capturing the tree. After the tree burns, he feels guilt-ridden by his role in the whole event. Sylvanas's accusation that it's his fault is able to get through to him because of that.

I think Saurfang was committed to killing Saurfang if he needed to, but I don't think it was his goal (it *was* Sylvanas' goal, but I don't think Saurfang was fully aware of that). The goal as Sylvanas first explained it to Saurfang concerned taking and holding Teldrassil to use as a stalking-horse against the Alliance - continually threatening them with the welfare of the location while also using it as a barrier to drive them back, ultimately positioning the Horde in a position of unassailable superiority. Killing Tyrande and Malfurion to break the hope of the Kaldorei specifically wasn't part of the deal, and in that context Saurfang saw the duel between Sylvanas and Malfurion as a ritual, quasi-spiritual duel to represent the Horde's "rightness of cause." If the Warchief were defeated then it would prove the Alliance right; the Horde would lose the momentum of the war and return to Ogrimmar essentially in defeat. But Saurfang interfered (against his better judgement in hindsight) with the duel and broke his own ethical code as an Orc, which made him hesitate about securing what would've been a Horde victory - which is what most of his detractors are really calling him out on (understandably so). Sylvanas "saves" the victory for the Horde by enacting a horrid atrocity, inflicting the proposed "psychic wound" by burning down Teldrassil and exacting a mass-slaughter of Night Elven civilians and their major population center. The 1-2 combination punch of these two things temporary break Saurfang down, putting him in such a state that he feels unable to act; a state where he's not even entitled to act. This is why he tries to essentially suicide himself against the Alliance at Lordaeron, before Zekhan rouses his more noble nature; he's lost all hope for both himself and for the Horde under Sylvanas.

He's still not to the point where he feels able (or entitled) to take the mantle of Warchief himself and challenge Sylvanas directly at the Battle of Lordaeron - which is why he leaves it to Anduin, who controls a force great enough to possibly take down Sylvanas as well as a moral stance great enough not to punish the remaining Horde for the actions of the current Warchief. In "Lost Honor" it's shown that Anduin is incapable of doing this because Sylvanas' war is on a level Anduin can't fight on, and so Saurfang finally musters up the will to break his own lethargy and attempt to counter Sylvanas himself at long last.

[Zora-Prime]

Let's hope Saurfang dies in a manner as pitiful as his son did.

Hear, hear.

[Azen]

So like I’ve already asked before, why don’t you just address each point in turn? I’ve noticed you’ve declined the opportunity again to here. Surely if my presentation of the facts are apparently so skewed you should be able to fairly easily point out why? FYI I actually provided a definition of the term for “Traitor” just to back up my points so if you wanna dispute that too then go right ahead - it ain’t my fault Saurfang’s actions fit it so well.

Disputing your points one by one is bait. I won’t bite. for example; Aucald laid out the text book definition of traitor in near perfect English and he explains the relevance of context. I don’t see you considering the context in any of your points.

If you still refuse to take context into account then I ask you a simple question; forget Sylvanus and Saurfang for a moment. If a leader which was elected for you, not by you or in any way fimilair to you, turns into a self serving tyrant who disregards and defiles all the customs and beliefs you hold dear. Does it make you a coward to defy this leader? Does being a traitor, according to your definition, in this situation bare a bad connotation to you?

FYI: for said context, read Aucalds posts. Especially the one before this. I’m not going to retype it.

[Morth]

As an alliance I stand with Sylvanas because she's destroying the Horde.

[Deleted]

Disputing your points one by one is bait. I won’t bite. for example; Aucald laid out the text book definition of traitor in near perfect English and he explains the relevance of context. I don’t see you considering the context in any of your points.

If you still refuse to take context into account then I ask you a simple question; forget Sylvanus and Saurfang for a moment. If a leader which was elected for you, not by you or in any way fimilair to you, turns into a self serving tyrant who disregards and defiles all the customs and beliefs you hold dear. Does it make you a coward to defy this leader? Does being a traitor, according to your definition, in this situation bare a bad connotation to you?

FYI: for said context, read Aucalds posts. Especially the one before this. I’m not going to retype it.

You say about taking things out of context, but then you call on me to consider things by using concepts...out of context. You are just undermining yourself. Besides, context is irrelevant and if we're calling on other people to do our work for us, I may myself refer you to Wildberry's and Super Dickmann's earlier posts which actually explain the irrelevance of context - it matters not what the circumstances are under which Saurfang made his decisions or what his reasonings were, by the very definitions of the word both in game and in reality, what he has done is traitorous. What he feels about them is irrelevant, what other characters in game know is irrelevant, that does not change the nature of his acts and who those acts are conducted against or in collaboration with.

Furthermore, you use hyperbole to talk of "defiles all the customs and beleifs you hold dear", but you are similutaneously completely overlooking that Saurfang has done exactly this, which I explicitly laid out earlier for you, thereby making him a hypocrite - consciously and willingly putting more Horde lives in danger to satisfy his own guilty conscience by sparing a very powerful enemy, deserting your faction to die in the middle of a war and refusing their help instead of working to make it better from the inside, just to name a couple of obvious examples. But as with so many other apologists on here, you seem to be blissfully willing to overlook and ignore that, or worse, minimise and whitewash it all because apparently "his intentions are good", which is fallacious and wrong - not only because it does not change the treacherous and hypocritical nature of what he has done, but it is the very antithesis of what defines the Horde he is apparently wanting to reclaim.

[Reyuna]

You say about taking things out of context, but then you call on me to consider things by using concepts...out of context. You are just undermining yourself. Besides, context is irrelevant and if we're calling on other people to do our work for us, I may myself refer you to Wildberry's and Super Dickmann's earlier posts which actually explain the irrelevance of context - it matters not what the circumstances are under which Saurfang made his decisions or what his reasonings were, by the very definitions of the word both in game and in reality, what he has done is traitorous. What he feels about them is irrelevant, what other characters in game know is irrelevant, that does not change the nature of his acts and who those acts are conducted against or in collaboration with.

Furthermore, you use hyperbole to talk of "defiles all the customs and beleifs you hold dear", but you are similutaneously completely overlooking that Saurfang has done exactly this, which I explicitly laid out earlier for you, thereby making him a hypocrite - consciously and willingly putting more Horde lives in danger to satisfy his own guilty conscience by sparing a very powerful enemy, deserting your faction to die in the middle of a war and refusing their help instead of working to make it better from the inside, just to name a couple of obvious examples. But as with so many other apologists on here, you seem to be blissfully willing to overlook and ignore that, or worse, minimise and whitewash it all because apparently "his intentions are good", which is fallacious and wrong - not only because it does not change the treacherous and hypocritical nature of what he has done, but it is the very antithesis of what defines the Horde he is apparently wanting to reclaim.

Hear hear. Any member of the Horde that now dies at the hands of Malfurion (waaa waaa wheres my Tyrande? waaaaaaaaaaaa) is blood on Saurfangs hands.

Pity Xavius didn't kill Malf when he had the chance.

[raziel083]

Durotan, Orgrim, Cairne, Vol'jin.....all "traitors" to the Horde according to the cries that people are making about Saurfang. They were traitors for a reason. Yet here you all are trying to make a case that it's different for Saurfang for some reason. I don't get it.