Dear "horde players:" prepare to temper your expectations.

[Omedon]

So with the horde storyline, I have a strong, STRONG feeling that Blizzard will absolutely divide the playerbase in one way or another and... like intentionally disappoint some of them, in an effort to almost... I don't know, condition the player sentiment, perhaps to combat toxicity. I'll explain.

I see the Horde discussion over this entire expansion storyline as creating some notable sub-factions along the line of certain sentiments.

1) Loyalty to the idea of the horde as interpreted by Saurfang. I believe this is the path most intended for players. We are Zekhan, basically. But it's not the only subfaction, of course.

2) Loyalty to the office of Warchief. "I swore an oath, I must uphold, regardless of who the warchief is." This, I believe is the choice being given to players with Saurfang in 8.1, and honestly, both sides make sense when seen on this axis.

3) Loyalty to Sylvanas because of belief in the spark of humanity we saw in "three sisters," or something to that effect. I think the story that ultimately gets told will allow this sentiment to be satisfied and have closure. If Sylvanas is no longer warchief or even forsaken leader down the road, I do believe she'll get a sendoff that makes her rearview image palatable to this subfaction, if not other segments of the playerbase.

4) Loyalty to Sylvanas/The horde because "YAAAA BURN THE ELVES AND THEIR BABIES." This subfaction, this right here, I do not believe can or should come out of the BFA story or any story with satisfaction or validation, and I think Blizzard agrees 100%. In fact I think this subfaction is subtly (or perhaps not so subtly) being told by BFA "adapt or abandon, because... no."

Subfaction 4 conjures discussions to the tune of "these people are sick," or "what is wrong with you?" I don't think that's entirely fair because I think an RPG has to provide a seperation of player and character. At the same time, decent people looking for escapism into subfaction 4 might want to read the writing on the wall and realize that the player will not, in this faction war storyline that indeed does deign to godmode our characters to a degree, be given the option to be that evil because that just isn't how this game works. Neither side will be cast as the villain because both sides have every right to expect a mostly heroic power fantasy out of a game like WoW. Ultimately, we all have to "win" or else why are we paying to play? If you're casting everyone to win, you can't cast a vilainous player to win, because then everyone else loses.

Sylvanas alone, pointedly and canonically, owns the burning of Teldrassil because a) she is an NPC and b) it was an objectively villainous act. She's a villain in that story. The playerbase was intentionally removed from that moment because ultimately we have to be cast as heroes. Think of the potential storylines that validate subfaction 4. They're not heroic. That subfaction aren't heroes. They're villains. In canon, you will never be cast as a villain, you just won't.

If you are part of subfaction 4, that's your right, I can't tell you how to RP your character, but honestly... look at how the story is being told. Prepare yourself for what's coming. It won't be kind to you, so maybe get on board with the options that will indeed be presented to you for the sake of your engagement and your enjoyment.

Just my more-than-two-cents.

[Sastank]

Blizzard told Diablo fans to temper expectations and they didn't listen. I'm sure the same will happen with WoW

[Soon-TM]

Blizzard told Diablo fans to temper expectations and they didn't listen. I'm sure the same will happen with WoW

Wonder what that would imply for WoW (or at least Horde) fans...

[LowestFormOfWit]

It doesn't matter if we're cast as villains. What matters is if Sylvanas follows the Garrosh model, or if she follows a Kerrigan model.

-Grommash enacted genocide upon the Draenei in WoD, yet through HFC's raid we end up liberating him and fighting with him, and he ends up being instrumental in the post-Legion peace in the AU timeline.
-Illidan proclaimed himself king of Outland, and found allied forces in Blood Elves, Naga, Broken, and forced creation of a new fel-corrupted Horde to help him to this end. While not wholly villainous, he's worked with the Legion to some end multiple times over history, hence his title Betrayer and his 10,000 year imprisonment. They then turn around in Legion to give us a different shot at his motives, that ultimately he's always been fighting the greater good fight, no matter the cost.

Sylvanas has always been more an anti-hero type character. None of the objectively evil things she's done or are doing are beyond redemption if she is instrumental in defeating N'zoth, or the other Old God influences in BfA. While Blizzard's writers are not, in my opinion, good enough to make such a redemption feel satisfactory, the possibility of this being ham-fisted in there poorly I feel is greater than the possibility of them simply making her descent into evil so on-the-nose and Saturday morning cartoon villain level of evil.

Players are always separated just enough from the overall story to prevent us being cast as villains (and in early WoW story-lines, even as heroes. One of the major player complaints that we'd defeat these major threats and evils and NPCs would get credit for them). It was only recently that our character appears in the in-game cinematics at all.

As players, we're cast as rather gullible people. We've done some really stupid, obviously wrong things throughout many questlines. Handing over Kel'thuzad's phylactery instead of destroying it. Freeing prisoners in Zul'farrak that we probably shouldn't have. Allowing Teron Gorefiend to free himself from imprisonment. We're always removed just enough to not be accountable for the fuck-ups.

Now, though, Sylvanas is calling upon us by name as her champion, to do things not every Horde player agrees with. This divide is going to be harder to resolve than Sylvanas' ultimate intentions. They said at Blizzcon that the options they're giving players to bring back Player Agency are meaningless if they don't fully support them, and they claim they will be. However, I remain skeptical and still feel we'll all end up at point B regardless of how differently we left point A.

[Omedon]

It doesn't matter if we're cast as villains. What matters is if Sylvanas follows the Garrosh model, or if she follows a Kerrigan model.

-Grommash enacted genocide upon the Draenei in WoD, yet through HFC's raid we end up liberating him and fighting with him, and he ends up being instrumental in the post-Legion peace in the AU timeline.
-Illidan proclaimed himself king of Outland, and found allied forces in Blood Elves, Naga, Broken, and forced creation of a new fel-corrupted Horde to help him to this end. While not wholly villainous, he's worked with the Legion to some end multiple times over history, hence his title Betrayer and his 10,000 year imprisonment. They then turn around in Legion to give us a different shot at his motives, that ultimately he's always been fighting the greater good fight, no matter the cost.

Sylvanas has always been more an anti-hero type character. None of the objectively evil things she's done or are doing are beyond redemption if she is instrumental in defeating N'zoth, or the other Old God influences in BfA. While Blizzard's writers are not, in my opinion, good enough to make such a redemption feel satisfactory, the possibility of this being ham-fisted in there poorly I feel is greater than the possibility of them simply making her descent into evil so on-the-nose and Saturday morning cartoon villain level of evil.

Players are always separated just enough from the overall story to prevent us being cast as villains (and in early WoW story-lines, even as heroes. One of the major player complaints that we'd defeat these major threats and evils and NPCs would get credit for them). It was only recently that our character appears in the in-game cinematics at all.

As players, we're cast as rather gullible people. We've done some really stupid, obviously wrong things throughout many questlines. Handing over Kel'thuzad's phylactery instead of destroying it. Freeing prisoners in Zul'farrak that we probably shouldn't have. Allowing Teron Gorefiend to free himself from imprisonment. We're always removed just enough to not be accountable for the fuck-ups.

Now, though, Sylvanas is calling upon us by name as her champion, to do things not every Horde player agrees with. This divide is going to be harder to resolve than Sylvanas' ultimate intentions. They said at Blizzcon that the options their giving players to bring back Player Agency are meaningless if they don't fully support them, and they claim they will be. However, I remain skeptical and still feel we'll all end up at point B regardless of how differently we left point A.

As much as I understand and respect a lot of what you said, I just want to throw in here that we shouldn’t necessarily look to grommash’s “Draenor is free!” as an example of a story likely to be cited as a decent precedent haha!

[TheWorkingTitle]

Handing over Kel'thuzad's phylactery instead of destroying it.

Speak for yourself. I kept mine.

[LowestFormOfWit]

As much as I understand and respect a lot of what you said, I just want to throw in here that we shouldn’t necessarily look to grommash’s “Draenor is free!” as an example of a story likely to be cited as a decent precedent haha!

I mentioned it because his storyline is expanded by the Mag'har Orc scenario, and it does become clear he went on to maintain and champion peace for 35 years. While many are upset over the events of AU and WoD in general, the fact is this is recent writing and lore in WoW, and I find it relevant enough to draw from when talking about current events.

[Powerogue]

Sounds about right. Ultimately the story will cater to whatever direction they want to go with it. They keep talking about how they want to address these "subfactions" of the Horde, with the idea that the Horde comes out of this turmoil stronger for it.

The other end being "nyeh heh heh we're the evil faction" is very, very unlikely.

[Omedon]

Sounds about right. Ultimately the story will cater to whatever direction they want to go with it. They keep talking about how they want to address these "subfactions" of the Horde, with the idea that the Horde comes out of this turmoil stronger for it.

The other end being "nyeh heh heh we're the evil faction" is very, very unlikely.

I have a feeling that the way they address the outlying “loyal to Sylvanas because forsaken” players will be to play the “Lordaeron patriot” card with Calia.

While godmoding is always ugly, you really have to play outside of type to be a forsaken that doesn’t care about the actual heir to the throne. I think that’s an assumption that the writing is safe to make.

[Powerogue]

I have a feeling that the way they address the outlying “loyal to Sylvanas because forsaken” players will be to play the “Lordaeron patriot” card with Calia.

While godmoding is always ugly, you really have to play outside of type to be a forsaken that doesn’t care about the actual heir to the throne. I think that’s an assumption that the writing is safe to make.

I wouldn't say so. They've made a point, that Sylvanas hammers in, that the forsaken are their own race, rather than former humans. She actively works to foster this and stomp out fondness towards their old lives. I feel like that has defined their character as a race, especially moving past Cataclysm. Many of them aren't even civilians of Lordaeron anymore, but people who were raised after.

If I wanted a forsaken leader, it'd be someone who understands the forsaken as they are now, rather than wanting to focus on what they were. That's why I'd pick someone like Voss over Calia.

[Rozz]

I wouldn't say so. They've made a point, that Sylvanas hammers in, that the forsaken are their own race, rather than former humans. She actively works to foster this and stomp out fondness towards their old lives. I feel like that has defined their character as a race, especially moving past Cataclysm. Many of them aren't even civilians of Lordaeron anymore, but people who were raised after.

If I wanted a forsaken leader, it'd be someone who understands the forsaken as they are now, rather than wanting to focus on what they were. That's why I'd pick someone like Voss over Calia.

I feel the same about Calia, but I'm worried that she's still going to be inserted into the story to stir something up with the Forsaken regardless.

[Omedon]

I wouldn't say so. They've made a point, that Sylvanas hammers in, that the forsaken are their own race, rather than former humans. She actively works to foster this and stomp out fondness towards their old lives. I feel like that has defined their character as a race, especially moving past Cataclysm. Many of them aren't even civilians of Lordaeron anymore, but people who were raised after.

If I wanted a forsaken leader, it'd be someone who understands the forsaken as they are now, rather than wanting to focus on what they were. That's why I'd pick someone like Voss over Calia.

You know, giving it some thought... I’d love to see Lilian Voss lead the Forsaken!

[Evilfish]

I wouldn't say so. They've made a point, that Sylvanas hammers in, that the forsaken are their own race, rather than former humans. She actively works to foster this and stomp out fondness towards their old lives. I feel like that has defined their character as a race, especially moving past Cataclysm. Many of them aren't even civilians of Lordaeron anymore, but people who were raised after.

If I wanted a forsaken leader, it'd be someone who understands the forsaken as they are now, rather than wanting to focus on what they were. That's why I'd pick someone like Voss over Calia.

They day they replace Sylvanas with Calia is when they wreck the Forsaken.

This whole mess has been another love letter to the Alliance, while they might complain the story isn't satisfactory, which they always do cause I've never seen the Alliance fanbase content with any story they were given, in the end they get something they have been asking for, namely the removal of a Horde character. If Blizzard believes that removing Sylvanas from the Horde story and having her replaced with some moronic twist like Calia to represent the Forsaken will be welcome by Forsaken then I believe they are making a mistake. Time will tell.

Personally, given the mess that has been the story so far, I'd rather not have any further interaction between the factions because it always ends up poorly for the Horde and yet, somehow the Alliance are the ones complaining. So, no, I don't want Calia and I don't want any other characters that have a horse in both factions so to speak.

[Necromind]

They day they replace Sylvanas with Calia is when they wreck the Forsaken.

Worse.
The day they force us to kill or replace Sylvanas as Forsaken leader will be the day they wreck Forsaken. Calia is just an extreme example of this. They make Calia Forsaken leader and i will geniunly will never care again about WOW Lore.

The Forsaken's strenght is in unity and loyalty to their Faction. From lowest position forsaken to Leader they all work together towards common goal. And she's their leader not because she was born or usurped that title, but rather fought on the battlefield and established their whole faction and that gives her incredible amount of trust from Forsaken.

People make me laugh when they say that Nathanos, Voss or even Arcanus can replace her. They can't. Nobody can. The whole faction is comprised of faceless militaristic goons because Sylvanas is their face. This gives writers space to explore Forsaken as a faction rather than meaningfuly developing characters, in my opinion it's not a bad thing.
Think about it, Forsaken occupy a pretty unique position. They are (were) Lawful Evil, authoritarian, military state that follows orders and gets shit done for the Horde in Eastern Kingdoms. They don't fill their head with war traditions or orcish honor. One Executor is just as good as another one as long as the job gets done.
In my opinion, whole Cataclysm forsaken zones rewamp translated that pretty awesomely.

And i'm afraid as the story goes, she's well on her way out. There is just no way they can pull out of this mess without making even more dumb writing decisions.

[lollerlaban]

Blizzard told Diablo fans to temper expectations and they didn't listen. I'm sure the same will happen with WoW

Throws out a hype video
Then has to release a statement to lower expectations because they fucked themselves
It's the fault of the fans!

[Thage]

The Forsaken are in a rough place because their entire culture, such as it is, is centered on a level of cult of personality Chairman Mao could only vigorously beat his meat dreaming of. Whoever steps up (and it won't be Calia, people, unclench your buttholes over that stupid meme; they're obviously setting her up for a <gag> Lightforged Undead faction in the Alliance) is essentially going to be walking into a power vacuum and dealing with living under Sylvanas's post-posthumous shadow.

[Sastank]

Throws out a hype video
Then has to release a statement to lower expectations because they fucked themselves
It's the fault of the fans!

If you think they were announcing anything "good" in the mind of the fans after they told you to ya know, not expect that, then yea maybe look inwards

[Evilfish]

4) Loyalty to Sylvanas/The horde because "YAAAA BURN THE ELVES AND THEIR BABIES." This subfaction, this right here, I do not believe can or should come out of the BFA story or any story with satisfaction or validation, and I think Blizzard agrees 100%. In fact I think this subfaction is subtly (or perhaps not so subtly) being told by BFA "adapt or abandon, because... no."

I never understood this stuff. What's the issue here? Are we trying to educate players in life or something? Keeping it healthy for the kids?

[rowaasr13]

I never understood this stuff. What's the issue here? Are we trying to educate players in life or something? Keeping it healthy for the kids?

It seems they cater to people who want to play "noble savage", instead of "genocidal shitstain". You know, the majority.

[Jailson Mendes]

Worse.
The day they force us to kill or replace Sylvanas as Forsaken leader will be the day they wreck Forsaken. And i'm afraid as the story goes, she's well on her way out.

why? every other race can have a leadership replacement and a lore grow, and they didn't get wrecked, why the forsaken can't? honestly sylvanas lore was long time done, and they are just pushing now,it could be much beneficial for the forsaken to have a new leader, like a fresh start, with some new ideals.