Thrall on Sylvanas

[Vakir]

When you purposefully subject your people to near-inhospitable conditions but want to throw shade at your successors.

That always felt like a stupid retcon, though.

The original concept behind Durotar was that it was reflective of Draenor, before Draenor turned into a super diverse continent of various clumped ecosystems for gameplay purposes rather than a planet with one tileset we knew the orc clans to be associated with. That combined with the timing of Medivh showing up and there being no other environment to go to that wouldn't have been unsustainable for occupation with an extremely scattershot Horde at the time due to pushback from the humans or other environments.

Then we went 3 installments of WoW with no criticism or critique or issue of the living situation other than the requisite "we need to kill 10 quillboars" that every zone has in terms of pushback/expansionism.

The whole "we need X and Y!" didn't really show up until they needed reason for Garrosh to be angry at the Alliance and have youthful orc support beyond "Alex Afrasiabi wanted war back and Metzen wanted a Thrall foil."

Retcons are retcons, and it's still technically true and a huge fumble now, but it always felt super out of character with the Thrall we saw in Founding of Durotar, who was prone to mercy but also wasn't a damn throwrug. It's as silly as "there's food lines in Westfall but Horde settlements pop up in 40 seconds." Fight for the world's diminished resources, indeed, trailer voice.

EDIT: OK, 2.5 installments of WoW. Stuff like Glory did come up. But beyond that, it never felt like it was the intention when it was created as an environment to be in. Founding of Durotar framed the entire thing as a triumphant, successful exodus (that had to happen to stop the Legion in RoC anyway).

Kind of obnoxious how it felt very hamfisted just to have a reason to stay pissed off. They could've come up with myriad other reasons for conflict that didn't frame Thrall as a total failure when the intention (by the writers) is for him to not be anyway. It's one of those awkward disconnects between narrative intent and reality.

[Deleted]

I maintain Garrosh is a good example, beyond that, Doomhammer.

I have a deep appreciation of literature that is focused on geopolitics of our world. Therefore, I have developed a habit to try to perceive the fictional worlds from purely geopolitical point of view. This usually backfires as the overwhelming majority of authors could not care less about the rules of geography. You are right, Thrall made a great mistake when he choose Durotar and Barrens as a living space for his people. The desert and the savanna could never feed his people and the Southfury river was indeed no Nile, but because of his delusion, Thrall was willing to play blind over this very simple fact. Ironically, he thus planted the seeds of every future war between the Kalimdor Horde and the Kaldorei. Garrosh was merely following the logical conclusion that Thrall left behind, that the Horde must conquer Kaldorei lands if they wish to be capable of feeding themselves.

[Al Gorefiend]

Well with Sylvanas in charge, the Horde lost a strong hold in Eastern Kingdoms. That's a trade route Orgrimmar no longer enjoys. Thrall was not perfect but it's ertainly within his right to criticize considering Sylvanas is leading the Horde down a less than ideal path.

How's it a less than ideal path? Her ultimate outcome wants to be victory over the Alliance so the wars cease. She just knows the constant peace treaties always backfire on the Horde.

[KrakHed]

How's it a less than ideal path? Her ultimate outcome wants to be victory over the Alliance so the wars cease. She just knows the constant peace treaties always backfire on the Horde.

Seems they backfire more on the Alliance.

[therealstegblob]

Garrosh fell victim to Blizzard story development team

Garrosh is actually one of the best written characters in the cannon. One of the only truly morally grey ones, too. I'll agree his death was a bit goofy but I do appreciate what they tried to do. Thrall shouldn't have absolved himself of all responsibility for what he did in making Garrosh warchief, but should've accepted that Garrosh's actions were his own- it was simply Thrall's fault for putting him in a place to become an issue like that.

- - - Updated - - -

One thing I've wondered - the orcs relied heavily on Ashenvale for hunting and lumber. Is there anything canonical lorewise that discusses their habits in the Barrens, which does have wildlife, and Azshara? I'd assume Barrens is minimal hunting - it happens but can't be too heavily or risk wiping out the wildlife population.

Azshara, prior to the goblins, was still pretty much a neutral zone. The night elves had a tiny little camp on the edge of Ashenvale, but not really a presence. There are deer and wildlife in that area. Were the orcs utilizing that for hunting grounds or is it sort of just a zone that Blizz kind of ignored even in lore prior to Cata?

Just wondered if there's anything quest wise or elsewhere that gives us some idea of what exactly the Horde did with these two zones in terms of resources.

I think the issue with The Barrens and Azshara was that the Barrens was heavily populated and held by quillboar and centaur (races which, at least within the lore, are pretty significant and dangerous forces). Azshara was infested with naga, sea giant and other dangerous creatures. Ashenvale (aside from the demons goofing around) was a pretty safe forest, except for enemy Night Elves.

[Zulkhan]

Are we seriously rising a ruckus over a purposefully silly line of HotS? There is not even a clear reference to Sylvanas at all. This thread is pointless.

[naeblis495]

Vol'jin was one of the most consistent failures in Warcraft lore. All of his "accomplishments" are cases where he's either carried by other, more competent individuals, or completely underwhelming. That requires overlooking inaction and failure, which characterizes most of his time alive.

He didn't have potential. At all.



And still, Garrosh was a top-tier commander throughout all of Northrend. Every invasion he undertook as Warchief, Thrall inadvertently set the groundwork for.

Garrosh, a top tier commander heh ? sylvanas did more damage to the night elves in weeks than garrosh during his entire reign , and he was trying HARD on kicking those elves asses .

[Skytotem]

Are we seriously rising a ruckus over a purposefully silly line of HotS? There is not even a clear reference to Sylvanas at all. This thread is pointless.

Yeah I was honestly shitposting.

[Malikath]

How's it a less than ideal path? Her ultimate outcome wants to be victory over the Alliance so the wars cease. She just knows the constant peace treaties always backfire on the Horde.

name. one.
the original treaty lasted from WC3 to vanilla, when the warsong and forsaken broke it attacking ashenvale and the arathi highlands respectively.
the next treaty is the post-SoO one that lasted until BfA, although you could argue legion with the forsaken's ambush of the skyfire.