Why do people think Burning Teldrassil worked?

[Scrysis]

I agree until you say it erodes the unity of the horde. Most of the horde still follow her without question. They might not agree with her decision to attack the night elves city, but you have to remember that these races have been at a cold war with these alliance races for a long time. Your run of the mill grunts arent big fans of the night elves. A lot of orcs have wanted war with the alliance. Hell, a lot of orcs outright hate the night elves just as much as the humans. The "honor" faction of lore characters isnt gonna be all that big. The average player is not the average NPC. It would be like the russians bombing washington DC during the cold war, do you think that the russians would turn on the leadership or would it have united them against an enemy that they had been against for years in a new real war?

Our point of disagreement here is the on the faction of honor lore characters. WoW doesn't really follow the story of the players, but instead really just has the player follow along. Most of the events that players experience in canon are done by the major lore NPCs, not players. Now this might have changed recently, but I don't think it has. Therefore, I think greater importance should be placed on what the major lore characters are doing and saying.

The list of disgruntled lore characters is getting larger and larger. In addition to Saurfang, we have Baine, Rexxar, Talanji, and Valtrois all expressing displeasure of some flavor about Sylvanas. With a new undead model of that one Blood Elf, we may see a point where even Lore'themar will oppose Sylvanas. Gallywix will pick which ever side he thinks will win, so can't count on him for any side here.

I guess you could consider this a different kind of unity. Unity against the leadership/Sylvanas.

[Super Dickmann]

The list of disgruntled lore characters is getting larger and larger. In addition to Saurfang, we have Baine, Rexxar, Talanji, and Valtrois all expressing displeasure of some flavor about Sylvanas. With a new undead model of that one Blood Elf, we may see a point where even Lore'themar will oppose Sylvanas. Gallywix will pick which ever side he thinks will win, so can't count on him for any side here.

I guess you could consider this a different kind of unity. Unity against the leadership/Sylvanas.

You're missing cause and effect here. No one ever comments on Teldrassil except Saurfang. Everyone else doesn't give two shits. The reason they break with Sylvanas is either because of her plan with Derek which is somehow worse in their eyes than genocide or, rather more pessimistically, because she's losing and those opportunistic shitheels are ready to jump ship.

[HCLM]

It didn't work because it was a strategic mistake she made in an act of desperation.

The only way it could have been justified is if Sylvanas actually succeeded in killing Anduin and Genn at the Battle for Lordaeron. Then I guess Sylvanas would have been successful at actually killing the hope of the Alliance. But instead she failed and galvanized the entire Alliance against her.

Rewatch the video like 20 times. Maybe then you will understand the part where Sylvanas noticed that to break NE she has to take everything from them The dimming eyes of the dying Elf when she was looking at the burning tree was the reflection of that... No wonder blizzard is doing easy stories like 'you gut, me bad' when people can't get a simple message.

So no, it was not desperation. It was well though by Sylv. And it worked, she get NE on her side (dead NEs), and she splits Alliance.

[Dellis0991]

You can't argue if plan worked or not if you never had plan to begin with.

1. Carve a path of destruction and death through Night Elven territory... check.
2. Kill Malfurion....ehh
3. Capture Teldrassil.....ch-....burn it?.....burnt it....check
4. ????
5. Victory....wait...uhh.....

[Arrashi]

1. Carve a path of destruction and death through Night Elven territory... check.
2. Kill Malfurion....ehh
3. Capture Teldrassil.....ch-....burn it?.....burnt it....check
4. ????
5. Victory....wait...uhh.....

I see a big issue with point 2 already.

[Dellis0991]

I see a big issue with point 2 already.

Sylvanas covers Arrashi's mouth.....shhh....just let it be.

[Arrashi]

Sylvanas covers Arrashi's mouth.....shhh....just let it be.

You know that scene where she rips axe out of malfy, then rather then just doing anything to kill him, hands it to saurfang, tells him to finish him, than runs away as fast as she can so she can't be sure she cannot be sure if saurfang actually killed malfy, is by far, my favourite scene in warcarft lore, and best Wiseau moment in warcraft lore.

[Super Dickmann]

You know that scene where she rips axe out of malfy, then rather then just doing anything to kill him, hands it to saurfang, tells him to finish him, than runs away as fast as she can so she can't be sure she cannot be sure if saurfang actually killed malfy, is by far, my favourite scene in warcarft lore, and best Wiseau moment in warcraft lore.

>Not the part where Baine sees Derek crucified and tortured and goes "We have to do something, Sylvanas is bad " then just walks off and leaves him on the cross.
Absolutely plebeian taste.

[Khaza-R]

Rewatch the video like 20 times. Maybe then you will understand the part where Sylvanas noticed that to break NE she has to take everything from them The dimming eyes of the dying Elf when she was looking at the burning tree was the reflection of that... No wonder blizzard is doing easy stories like 'you gut, me bad' when people can't get a simple message.

So no, it was not desperation. It was well though by Sylv. And it worked, she get NE on her side (dead NEs), and she splits Alliance.

So basically she lost her foothold in Lordaeron, splintered the Horde, and created a new avatar of Elune's wrath just so she could turn a handful of Night Elves in undead?

What a trade.

[HCLM]

She didnt lose Lordaeron. Alliance nearly lost war if not OPJanna. Alliance lost huge amount of troops there and got nothing. Same goes for Teldrassil and darkshore. Major loses with no gain. I would say an Army of dark rangers is worth far more than mad Tyrande who is so easy to manipulate. Who cares if she become slightly stronger if she is focusing on the war away from the front.

Sylvanas is only collecting all necessary pieces for now.

[Kraddark]

Her plan did fail and now the Horde is in a state of utter disarray. Her old allies are beginning to get tired of her lack of morality and her new allies just got their city ransacked. Saurfang will probably stroll in and splinter the faction even more. There has to be something big at the end of this or Sylvanas was basically wasted.

[MikeBogina]

1. Plot armor prevented the Ancients from helping the Night elves in Ashevale/Darkshore/ Teldrassil. Not saying the Horde would get wiped out by them, but they weren't even present at all. Wild gods are powerful(not invincible) and would have been quite useful. Also the Draenei/Lightforged should have used to Vindicaar to funnel more troops there after the bulk of the army was sent south.

This was a blitzkrieg though, not only were the night elves unaware of the invasion, they were tricked into sending their forces south. The Horde swept through Ashenvale before any real defense could even be mustered.
The Ancients did actually show up, they fight in Darkshore and are no match for fire
Wild Gods are not Alliance assets. This is a common mistake by you alliance players, that you think the Wild Gods and Dragons are going to swoop in and protect you from the other faction that's also worked with them over the years.
Not sure what the Draenei are doing, but it could have been that they were unaware and are still recovering from a war with the Legion.

2. Plot armor prevented the Vindicaar(and Aurobos) from being used at Lordaeron because "that's not the story we are trying to tell". Undead are weak to the light. Lightforged warframes = crispy fried forsaken. These warframes melt legion spaceships. The same spaceships that shit on the Horde at the broken shore.

That's one of the problems when you create really powerful toys for both factions to use and then realize you actually only gave it to one faction(alliance bias in the first place, causes Alliance... unbias later on)
But again, Draenei could still have been recovering from the war with the Legion, their warframes could have all been destroyed by the end or whatever. And we have a counter to the Vindicaar... his name is Oculeth and if you ever bring the vindicaar to a battle, Oculeth then takes it out

3. Why would the Alliance surrender if it had access to these things?

Because Velen is a pacifist and knows his people are foreigners that shouldn't get involved with the local residents conflicts. Capturing Anduin, destroying the Alliance's main army and the Night Elves basically cripples the Alliance. The Dwarves and Gnomes and remaining human forces wouldn't be able to move on the Horde, especially now that their fleet was last in Lordaeron. And then there's the undead that would come from both major battles, that would swell the Horde's ranks.

Really the only thing the Alliance has is the Vindicaar and the writers regret giving it to the Alliance in the first place. But just like how the Horde's had a massive cannon aimed at Stormwind for years now, it's too much(we are finally getting to fire that cannon soon though) and Oculeth again counters the Vindicaar.

Don't act like plot armor is never used in the Horde's favor.

Yeah it is at times, not nearly as much as it is for Alliance characters but it is used to counter Alliance bias that should never happen in the first place.

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That just shows how retarded Slyvanus' plan was. Everything hinged on the Alliance(through plot induced stupidity) not planning for the blight AT ALL despite the fact they dealt with it in Stormheim and many other times before that.

The alliance doesn't prepare for a city known to use a certain type of weapon = Sylvanas' plan is retarded...

Ok alliance fanboy.

[Raven]

I've seen people argue that because Genn and Tyrande go to Darkshore without support from Anduin that Sylvs plan worked

But the whole point of splitting the Alliance was to negotiate peace with them separately without having to fight multiple battles and a drawn out war and required Genn being split from the nelfs

How does anyone figure this is "working" for Sylv?

But they actually have support from Anduin, he cant send the army since its busy fighting but he asks the player to go help them, and by how many threats we killed the player is alot more then some weak soldiers.

[tangers58]

Well I think to Sylvanas that it did and it didn't. Her entire plot to crush the NEs and Alliance sentiments didn't pan out at all. It also lead to a drawn out war and caused her allies to doubt her.

But at the same time: she is getting the war she wanted, dead bodies on either side are more ammo for her, and pressure was still placed on the Alliance to be reactionary and hard pressed.

If the goal was to make the Alliance a step behind to react to her actions, spread their troops, and sew discord--I would say she has had limited success.
Also I'm pretty sure Sylvanas is just using the war as an opportunity for her other goals. Even if one plan mostly falls through and only a little chaos is made, she's fine as long as her true goals are met.

This is what makes her an interesting character and a horrible leader. Sacrifices and mistakes are always worth it to her, if it still can lead her towards her greater goal. Now if only that could be written well in game...

Worked out quite well, doesn't matter if their "sentiments" are crushed when 90% of their species is dead

[mickybrighteyes]

I've seen people argue that because Genn and Tyrande go to Darkshore without support from Anduin that Sylvs plan worked

i'd say you've seen people talking out their ass... /thread

But the whole point of splitting the Alliance was to negotiate peace with them separately without having to fight multiple battles and a drawn out war and required Genn being split from the nelfs

the point as seen prior was to kick the alliance off Kalimdor. The speculated reason as things were building up was war on life. in the end in blew up into an event where the high king of lordaeron had multiple instances of deus ex machina to get him and his forces out of what was apparent defeat. I don't know where this whole negotiating angle came from.

How does anyone figure this is "working" for Sylv?

I think some wires are crossed... and different people are tlaking about different things.

[MikeBogina]

Ah yes 'realism' like burning a tree the size of a small island with catapults. A magic tree. Surrounded by water. Seriously if it were this easy the Legion ought to have been able to do it with one stupid floaty evil ship.

Or even Deathwing who was literally right next to it in the beginning of Cataclysm! I agree, the tree burning makes literally no sense at all, the catapults reaching it makes no sense at all. Living plants don't burn automatically, and a magical life tree that's surrounded by water shouldn't burn to fire catapults at all. xD

If Malf and Tyrande died, there wouldn't be a reason to burn the tree. It was a waste of good corpses and the people could have also been used as labor or negotiating pieces down the road.

[tangers58]

I've seen people argue that because Genn and Tyrande go to Darkshore without support from Anduin that Sylvs plan worked

But the whole point of splitting the Alliance was to negotiate peace with them separately without having to fight multiple battles and a drawn out war and required Genn being split from the nelfs

How does anyone figure this is "working" for Sylv?

Most of the Night Elf race was wiped out while UC was easily evacuated and still lost the Alliance most of their army... seems to have worked out pretty well. Quite cute when the Alliance kids talk about winning in Undercity... a few more "wins" like that and they will all be speaking Orcish

[Melusine]

Do you know why her plan didn't work? Because she's basically fighting against a faction that is using cheat codes.

She tried winning using every strategic and tactical at her disposal and she would have succeded wasn't for that damn plot armor.

Having to fight a godlike being as Malfurion? Tire him out making him fight all over a battlefront basically alone only to finish him when he is exhausted -> Plot armor saves Malfurion turning Sylvanas braindead and leaving the final blow to Saurfang that, apparentely, after a life of war and death decided that killing an enemy isn't fun anymore

Last I checked, Sylvanas picked this fight. Malfurion didn't go looking for trouble. She CHOSE to attack him specifically. And besides, in a one on one fight, Sylvanas should have and would have died without Saurfang there to cheap shot Malfurion. What was that you were saying about plot armor, again?

Trying to decimate an enemy faction to get an advantage? Destroy their main base making the survivors hostiles towards the faction that didn't help them -> First, Tyrande and the other NEs decided to not blame the Alliance. Then they pull out of their butts a ritual to become an Avatar of Vengeance and all of a sudden NEs aren't an almost extinct race anymore, making them able to sustain a brand new Warfront in the main Horde continent.

Ok, so, why didn't Tyrande blame the Alliance for what happened to Darkshore and Teldrassil? I can tell you why. When the Horde mobilized against Ashenvale, the Alliance was caught and blind-sided by the Horde with their hands up and pants down. It takes time to mobilize and get an army across the Sea to a continent, which is more than what the Horde needed to do, since they are on the same continent.

And I'm not sure why you believe that all the night elves were cloistered up in Teldrassil, as opposed to the more likely outcome, that after attacking their home, they all returned to avenge their home, and the friends that were there. And as for Tyrande becoming an avatar of vengeance for Elune, I guess someone underestimated Elune.... the mother Moon.

Wanting to kill the High King and his advisors during the Battle of Lordaeron?

(1)Create an Azerite tank

Which I guess you thought was indestructible.... /sigh

(2) Prepare a trap using your tactical advantage in streets of the city

And "Surprise, mother fuckers!!!" Reinforcements come out of the shadows. Seems like the Alliance made a few special preparations of their own to launch a surprise attack of their own.

(3) Prepare to bomb the entire city while trapping the Alliance leaders in the throne room ->

Sylvanas should have probably known this trick was going to fail once Jaina Proudmoore took the field. Mages are infamous for teleporting people out of sticky situations.

(1) All of a sudden Anduin is able to destroy an entire tank with a sword

Which ironically was the same sword his father used to take down a Fel Reaver, which in my judgment could turn that beer can the Horde calls an Azerite tank into scrap metal.

(2) Right when the trap with Horde troops succeded, Alleria and Mekkatorque are suddenly able to teleport inside the city, with enough troops to win the battle, without any serious explanation (Why they didn't do that before?)

You don't play Alliance, do you? Void elves use void portals to transport themselves over great spans, and could make it inside the gates without any help. Umbric does this shit fairly often. Alleria has been seen doing this as well.

(3) Even with a closed room and the city literally full of gas, the blight suddendly is able to full the throne room so slowly that Jaina is able to teleport Anduin & friends back on the magical ship.

I'm guessing you don't know much about Physics, Statics or Fluid Dynamics, do you?

Blight is a gas. It cannot occupy the space of a solid object. When you're talking the throne room, the real danger was having the Throne Room collapse on them, not to be taken out by the blight. It is shaped like a circular wall, after all.

On a side we have the Horde that have to come up with real strategy and tactics to win against the Alliance, on the other side we have the faction that keeps winning, without losing any important leader, because reasons

Real Strategies, my fucking dick.... Scorched earth tactics really have a way of backfiring. And I wouldn't necessarily call the Battle for Lordaeron a win for the Alliance. I would call it a draw. Both sides lost, it was really just a matter of which side lost the least. Considering that Sylvanas thought it a good idea to use the blight against her own troops on the other side of the wall probably contributed to why she lost Lordaeron, but ultimately, her goal was thwarted by Jaina Proudmoore. She could have lost every soldier she had, and it wouldn't have mattered to her as long as Alleria, Anduin, Genn and Jaina died, and they didn't.

In other news, the Horde has not lost any major leaders either. She handed Saurfang to the Alliance on a silver platter, which is going to bite her in her banshee ass. Baine is slowly breaking. She may end up the subject of a coup d'état, and it won't even be an Alliance thing. Hell, it might actually be Nathanos that strikes her down, the one that is the least likely could be the one that ultimately stops her. And maybe that will not be for the sake of saving the Horde, but to rule over it.

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That's one of the problems when you create really powerful toys for both factions to use and then realize you actually only gave it to one faction(alliance bias in the first place, causes Alliance... unbias later on)
But again, Draenei could still have been recovering from the war with the Legion, their warframes could have all been destroyed by the end or whatever. And we have a counter to the Vindicaar... his name is Oculeth and if you ever bring the vindicaar to a battle, Oculeth then takes it out

And just what do you think Oculeth is going to do, anyway? If the Legion wasn't able to get through the Vindicaar's shields with their fel cannons, his puny telemancy magic won't work, either.

Really the only thing the Alliance has is the Vindicaar and the writers regret giving it to the Alliance in the first place. But just like how the Horde's had a massive cannon aimed at Stormwind for years now, it's too much(we are finally getting to fire that cannon soon though) and Oculeth again counters the Vindicaar.

You do realize that Oculeth is not all powerful, right? In a magic user fight, I would put my money on the fact that Jaina would kick his ass. Most of the tricks he knows, while impressive, are easily duplicatable by any member of the Circle of Six, of which Jaina was a part of, and was not dismissed from. And again, the shields on the Vindicaar would stop anything he did to it. You forget, the Vindicaar is a transdimensional vessel. If he warped it away, it would be back in a matter of moments and turn Light's Judgment directly on him. And seriously, he wouldn't be able to reach the ship if he did. It is simply out of range.

The alliance doesn't prepare for a city known to use a certain type of weapon = Sylvanas' plan is retarded...

Ok alliance fanboy.

Ok, horde fanboy. I see you believe in the all-powerful nature of Sylvanas, and would probably curl up in a ball the day she is taken out by a coup d'état of her own creation, but so far, what we have figured out is, Blizzard is not interested in creating a huge balance shift, so it will not employ such things as the Vindicaar, the Bilgewater Cannon, or any of the other stupid shit from expansions past in current content. Your pathetic horde is never going to win, nor is the Alliance, because the game is not supposed to have an ending.

[Skytotem]

Most of the Night Elf race was wiped out while UC was easily evacuated and still lost the Alliance most of their army... seems to have worked out pretty well. Quite cute when the Alliance kids talk about winning in Undercity... a few more "wins" like that and they will all be speaking Orcish

I don't think Alliance lost that much more of their army than the Horde did.

Anduin ordered them out of the city before Sylv blew it up with blight.

[Tokk]

I don't think Alliance lost that much more of their army than the Horde did.

Anduin ordered them out of the city before Sylv blew it up with blight.

That is the general impression that I got as well. The Horde probably took more loses then they should have thanks to Slyvanas.