Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Skulltaker]

...weird because I definitly criticized their choice of putting Holdo center stage...it was pandering but theres 99% of the rest of the movie.

Star Wars has always pandered, its always been heavily politicized. The Empire (and the First Order) is a direct caricture of Nazi Germany. Leia is the personification fo woman rights at the time while Han is the slapstick rendition of 'cool masculinity' during the time. Lando was a token character. Lucas actually pulled female pilots because he felt like society couldnt get its head out of its ass.

Love everytime people try to paint SW as not having any sort of social commentary...

The literally just stole a bunch of stuff from ESB and RotJ...not sure how its 'objectively bad' unless you just dont like SW in general.

I agree with you on SW always having commentary. But I (personally) feel that the previous movies, the original trilogy definitly, wrapped it better than TLJ. It never felt this strongly on the nose. Of course, this might be due to the times we live in, and political debates among civilians being much more heated and a lot more aggressive than they used to be.

TLJ is very much a product of its time. Thats not an excuse for bad writing, though. I'm fine with Star Wars trying out new things like a fuel shortage (even though it has never been an issue befor, but, first time for everything), but you cannot create a sense of threat from being hunted down and cornered if people are constantly leaving and joining the chased party. I'm fine with there being a comment on 'weapons dealers are scum', but it comes out of nowhere and doesn't further the plot, it distracts, and giving the imense pressure that is supposed to be there, it is weird (not to say stupid) for Rose to suddenly draw attention to them by trying to free some stupid horses.

Which brings me to another big issue. Every problem the characters in TLJ face is 100% brought upon them by themselves. They are having trouble due to incompetence.

When the first Death Star approaches Yavin, Leia knew they'd be followed, but it was a necessary evil - it was either leave the plans with the Empire and die, killing all hope, or a slim chance for the Rebellion to destroy the Death Star at Yavin. When the Rebels are caught in a trap at the Battle of Endor, it was due to them underestimating the Empreror and his willingness to risk his new battlestation to lure them into a trap. They were outplayed, but perseverence, luck, the Force, Luke succeeding with Darth Vader and some furry imbeciles helped them to get on top.

Fin and Rose, on the other hand, are just dumb (or rather, their writing is dumb). They park their ship on the middle of a beach. Whats wrong with landing on a landing pad? It'd be closer, and as far as we know, they are not wanted by the people on Canto Bright. Also, what was their plan to convince the code breaker to go with them? "Yeah, we can't offer you any money, will storm the flagship of these ruthless lunatic turbo-fascists that blew up an entire Star System a week ago, and we have no plan how to escape from there once that is achieved. You in?" "Yeah... no. I'll stay here and keep drinking blue champagne. Best of luck to you." Why would a faceless guy care about them?

The First Order only has a need to pursue the Raddus and the following ships, becasue the commander of the Dreadnought is a fucking moron. Shoot the base? Why? Shoot the starships. The base isn't going anywhere! Get some intel! Get some prisoners, maybe!

Why is the FO officer that monitors the Supremacys shields not more dilligent in his work? He has a fucking huge responsibility. "Ah, sir, it might be nothing, but there was a flicker in the shields, someone might have snuck on board, we have thousands of personel on board, maybe check if there is an intruder?" What if Fin and Rose had simply decided to bomb the main reactor? Star Wars heroes have often succeded due to the bad guys underestimating a potential threat, but this guy literally has one job. I mean, the three Star Destroyers ramming into each other in ESB was pretty dumb, but damn. They got tunnelvisioned because Darth Vader was breathing down their neck.

And pulling some random vice admiral out of your ass, that acts as if she hasn't ever commanded anyhting but the rubber duck in her bathtub, surely didn't help.

The Resistance is being persued by the fleet. Why not split up their remaining crew in the three remaining ships and jump each to a different location? 2/3 of them would survive. Heck, they could even fake splitting them and move all onto one ship and escape. Of course, there's a chance the Empire will track the right ship, but still, its better then slowly moving towards a potential safe haven. What was the idea when they got there? They were moving in a straight line the entire time, are you telling me noone in the FO figured out where they went? And then they wanted to call for allies? Really? They have enough Allies to challange the Supremacy and the Star Destroyers that excort her? Then why is the FO a problem to begin with?

Leia calling back the Bombers was idiotic aswell. They were in position to attack a major asset. How long would it have taken to recover them from an attack position and get away from the FO fleet? The only part of the story that was interesting and well written was the part around Rey and Ben. And that part of the movie, I enjoyed. But there was so much bullshit thrown inbetween that kept distracting you from the actual story that it makes the movie impossible to enjoy.

[PACOX]

It's obejctively a bad film and yes the kamikaze attack opens huge holes in canon for why they didn't just use astroids with lightspeed drives to take down capitsl ships prior or even entire fleets. If you think it's a good film it's likely due to politics more than any redeeming cinematic quality. Either that or you see shiny visual effects and are so blinded by them you can't be objective.

Using hyperspace as a weapon was never not canon. Its a highly risky move that almost never works. Starkiller base fired hyperspace projectiles and it took a massive amount of energy to do so. We also saw Han make a big deal about existing hyperspace within Starkiller's base because of the amount of precision and computing power it would take to pull of such a move.

Hyperspace isn't just going really really fast. You're jumping into another dimension of sorts and it takes a bunch of computational power to calculate a proper route that's safe of bad shit in space. You don't want to end up inside of a star. The only time an object can be used as hypespeed projectile is as its just entering hyperspace. To achieve this you have to be:

A) in front of the object you want to ram
B) calculate a path that would place the object in your part right before you enter hyperspace
C) be in front of an object that going to let you just chill in front of it while your nav computer calculates the proper tragectory.

The only reason why Holdo pulled it off was because of a shit ton of foresight and the First Order thought she was doing anything but priming for a jump. They 'allowed' her to ram them through arrogance and tactical stupidity. Its not like she just hit a button and shot through the Supremacy.

[Skulltaker]

Using hyperspace as a weapon was never not canon. Its a highly risky move that almost never works. Starkiller base fired hyperspace projectiles and it took a massive amount of energy to do so. We also saw Han make a big deal about existing hyperspace within Starkiller's base because of the amount of precision and computing power it would take to pull of such a move.

Hyperspace isn't just going really really fast. You're jumping into another dimension of sorts and it takes a bunch of computational power to calculate a proper route that's safe of bad shit in space. You don't want to end up inside of a star. The only time an object can be used as hypespeed projectile is as its just entering hyperspace. To achieve this you have to be:

A) in front of the object you want to ram
B) calculate a path that would place the object in your part right before you enter hyperspace
C) be in front of an object that going to let you just chill in front of it while your nav computer calculates the proper tragectory.

The only reason why Holdo pulled it off was because of a shit ton of foresight and the First Order thought she was doing anything but priming for a jump. They 'allowed' her to ram them through arrogance and tactical stupidity. Its not like she just hit a button and shot through the Supremacy.

That's a nice theory and all, but most of it is your assumption. There is nothing there to suggest that you couldn't, for example, have freighters etc outfitted with a hyperdrive that would jump close to the Death Star 2, and then just have them jump again. Being in Front of a 150km diameter ball of death doesn't sound that hard.

And even though arriving at a certain destination with a safe course does take a lot of precision navigating (as explained by several characters, just as you said), you CAN just push a button and go forward, as seen in Rogue One, or the Clone Wars series, where a ship with a malfunctioning navcomputer 'just goes into hyperspace the way it is facing.'

It would be difficult to hit a Star Destroyer or anything smaller, but a Death Star? Or heck, even a planet/the city on a planet? Not so much.

[PACOX]

I agree with you on SW always having commentary. But I (personally) feel that the previous movies, the original trilogy definitly, wrapped it better than TLJ. It never felt this strongly on the nose. Of course, this might be due to the times we live in, and political debates among civilians being much more heated and a lot more aggressive than they used to be.

TLJ is very much a product of its time. Thats not an excuse for bad writing, though. I'm fine with Star Wars trying out new things like a fuel shortage (even though it has never been an issue befor, but, first time for everything), but you cannot create a sense of threat from being hunted down and cornered if people are constantly leaving and joining the chased party. I'm fine with there being a comment on 'weapons dealers are scum', but it comes out of nowhere and doesn't further the plot, it distracts, and giving the imense pressure that is supposed to be there, it is weird (not to say stupid) for Rose to suddenly draw attention to them by trying to free some stupid horses.

Which brings me to another big issue. Every problem the characters in TLJ face is 100% brought upon them by themselves. They are having trouble due to incompetence.

When the first Death Star approaches Yavin, Leia knew they'd be followed, but it was a necessary evil - it was either leave the plans with the Empire and die, killing all hope, or a slim chance for the Rebellion to destroy the Death Star at Yavin. When the Rebels are caught in a trap at the Battle of Endor, it was due to them underestimating the Empreror and his willingness to risk his new battlestation to lure them into a trap. They were outplayed, but perseverence, luck, the Force, Luke succeeding with Darth Vader and some furry imbeciles helped them to get on top.

Fin and Rose, on the other hand, are just dumb (or rather, their writing is dumb). They park their ship on the middle of a beach. Whats wrong with landing on a landing pad? It'd be closer, and as far as we know, they are not wanted by the people on Canto Bright. Also, what was their plan to convince the code breaker to go with them? "Yeah, we can't offer you any money, will storm the flagship of these ruthless lunatic turbo-fascists that blew up an entire Star System a week ago, and we have no plan how to escape from there once that is achieved. You in?" "Yeah... no. I'll stay here and keep drinking blue champagne. Best of luck to you." Why would a faceless guy care about them?

The First Order only has a need to pursue the Raddus and the following ships, becasue the commander of the Dreadnought is a fucking moron. Shoot the base? Why? Shoot the starships. The base isn't going anywhere! Get some intel! Get some prisoners, maybe!

Why is the FO officer that monitors the Supremacys shields not more dilligent in his work? He has a fucking huge responsibility. "Ah, sir, it might be nothing, but there was a flicker in the shields, someone might have snuck on board, we have thousands of personel on board, maybe check if there is an intruder?" What if Fin and Rose had simply decided to bomb the main reactor? Star Wars heroes have often succeded due to the bad guys underestimating a potential threat, but this guy literally has one job. I mean, the three Star Destroyers ramming into each other in ESB was pretty dumb, but damn. They got tunnelvisioned because Darth Vader was breathing down their neck.

And pulling some random vice admiral out of your ass, that acts as if she hasn't ever commanded anyhting but the rubber duck in her bathtub, surely didn't help.

The Resistance is being persued by the fleet. Why not split up their remaining crew in the three remaining ships and jump each to a different location? 2/3 of them would survive. Heck, they could even fake splitting them and move all onto one ship and escape. Of course, there's a chance the Empire will track the right ship, but still, its better then slowly moving towards a potential safe haven. What was the idea when they got there? They were moving in a straight line the entire time, are you telling me noone in the FO figured out where they went? And then they wanted to call for allies? Really? They have enough Allies to challange the Supremacy and the Star Destroyers that excort her? Then why is the FO a problem to begin with?

Leia calling back the Bombers was idiotic aswell. They were in position to attack a major asset. How long would it have taken to recover them from an attack position and get away from the FO fleet? The only part of the story that was interesting and well written was the part around Rey and Ben. And that part of the movie, I enjoyed. But there was so much bullshit thrown inbetween that kept distracting you from the actual story that it makes the movie impossible to enjoy.

I agree with a bunch of your points. The problems were a lot of their own but I thinks part of the point.

Had Poe not have went rogue then the Resistence might have made it out of there, at least had a better chance. The Resistence would've still had most of its defense crew should the FO still had attacked the fleet later. Maybe 90% of their leaders wouldn't have died.

Had Rey listened to some of what Luke was telling her she would have never been tricked by Kylo to board the Supremacy. Luke might not have died. We've yet to see the full consequences of her helping Kylo kill Snoke.

Holdo was a part of a line of succession that was wiped out and not ready to deal with someone such as Poe.

Remember Finn and Rose did not sneak aboard the Supremacy like they thought. They were allowed to board. It was a set up, whether it happened on the casino planet (a terrible part of the movie) or in transit, we don't know but they didn't make it onto the ship through their own devices. Remember the FO had killed off all of the Resistence except what we say in the film, they thought they had time to play with them since the Resistence was just a ragtag group of guerillas unsupported by the New Republic. Like, "while waste you're energy chasing them when they'll just tire themselves out in due time" type logic.

Snoke died because he thought he could keep manipulating Kylo. Like you said, everyone created their own problems. Luke died because of his cynicism, his sacrifice was his 'redemption'.

In your run down of the original trilogy you skipped Empire Strikes Back. That movie was the Rebels taking a bunch of L's due to their ignorance.

[jakeic]

Disclaimer: I dislike the prequel nonsense as much as the next poster here. However, that kind of premise kind of made sense to me always, unlike a lot of other stuff in these movies.
Palpatine held a lot of power from the shadows on the Republic side, and more openly on the separatist side. But while he could influence politics in the Senate, he did not seem to be in absolute control just yet, with the Jedi posing a significant threat to him. If they ever found him out, he likely would not have been able to defeat the whole order, even with two force users on his side. Had he just declared himself emperor without the backdrop of the war, he also might have faced harsh opposition from forces that he did not fully control. Just because people voted for a strong man during a massive war does not mean they would approve of that during peace time. Even during the war he seemed to assign the biggest losses to the separatists, who he could not as easily control as the clones.

The war just allowed him to take over safely, weakening all the factions and people that might pose an actual threat to him. It made sense, at least in theory. The films utterly fail at conveying that, however.

The thing is, why does Plapatine want to be Emperor? As Chancellor of the Republic he's already the single strongest political person, he has the Jedi as lap dogs with Yoda himself considered a trusted adviser, and was already capable of doing whatever he wanted since he was the defacto ruler of both the Republic and the Trade Federation.

It would have made far more sense from a story perspective for Plapatine to be a military leader who gains popularity from successful campaigns in the outer rim who returns to the inner systems to face some sort of existential crisis and then places he himself as Emperor.

[PACOX]

That's a nice theory and all, but most of it is your assumption. There is nothing there to suggest that you couldn't, for example, have freighters etc outfitted with a hyperdrive that would jump close to the Death Star 2, and then just have them jump again. Being in Front of a 150km diameter ball of death doesn't sound that hard.

And even though arriving at a certain destination with a safe course does take a lot of precision navigating (as explained by several characters, just as you said), you CAN just push a button and go forward, as seen in Rogue One, or the Clone Wars series, where a ship with a malfunctioning navcomputer 'just goes into hyperspace the way it is facing.'

It would be difficult to hit a Star Destroyer or anything smaller, but a Death Star? Or heck, even a planet/the city on a planet? Not so much.

Thats different from weaponizing a jump though.

Going into hyperspace has a "runway" of sorts. To ram someone you need to hit them at the end of the runway or you'll just find yourself in hyperspace traveling to your endpoint.

Holdo didnt just blindly jump in the direction of the Supremacy, she had to find the sweetspot to achieve her goal. She had to make sure she wouldn't enter hyperspace before hitting the Suprmacy while making sure she had enough speed to do damage to it.

here is nothing there to suggest that you couldn't, for example, have freighters etc outfitted with a hyperdrive that would jump close to the Death Star 2, and then just have them jump again.

Yes there was. They would've had to do that in the middle of a giant battle where the Empire was firing upon anything that wasn't Imperial. Even the Death Star was popping off shots like crazy. No one wouldn't allowed them time to line up their tragetories vs the FO who just say their and gawked at Raddus.

The Imperials were also known for the use of gravity wells. You could jump in but you weren't jumping back out. We could assume that the Interdictor Star Destroyers were part of the battle (the ships with the gravity wells) or the tech was present on the Death Star/other vessels.

[Kiri]

The thing is, why does Plapatine want to be Emperor? As Chancellor of the Republic he's already the single strongest political person, he has the Jedi as lap dogs with Yoda himself considered a trusted adviser, and was already capable of doing whatever he wanted since he was the defacto ruler of both the Republic and the Trade Federation.

It would have made far more sense from a story perspective for Plapatine to be a military leader who gains popularity from successful campaigns in the outer rim who returns to the inner systems to face some sort of existential crisis and then places he himself as Emperor.

Well, I can't speak for the man, since we do not have that much insight into his motivations, but I think you can see the answer in Episodes 3-6. There, Palpatine, as emperor, did quite a few things that, even with his machinations, would have likely been much harder to do while still just a senator or chancellor.

- Military expansion of star systems not yet under or rejecting imperial control, which also involved compulsory drafts that were unheard of in the Republic
- disbanding the Senate and placing power in the hands of moffs and other underlings
- cult of personality involving him. This is a guy that had giant statues of him erected within years of taking over, something that he couldn't have had easily as a civil servant. In general, he quite clearly wanted everyone to know that he is in charge, not just rule from the shadows
- Establishment of authoritarian systems like secret police and the like
- Brazen promotion of anti-alien sentiments and breeding programs to bolster the human population. Also the enslavement or genocide of many aliens and other non-human life forms.
- The eradication of the Jedi

Those are things that are much harder to facilitate when you do not have consolidated your power openly in an Empire. A slow buildup in secrecy for some of these things might have been possible, but in the end, I reckon the war plan was just easier. It's not like he really lost anything he truly valued in doing so. The biggest sacrifice on his end was likely the disfigurement in Episode III, and that might have been unintentional.

[MrMatticus]

Literally everyone that I know that loved SW has said the same.

You don't know many people then.

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Why would that be more insulting? As a Jedi you don't want to fight, so the Jedi way would have been the projection. However the teleportation wouldn't explain why both Leia and Rey felt Luke disappearing.

A powerful force presence disappearing would be easy for them to feel, just look at Yoda when Order 66 was executed.

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Making Rey an Empress would require having a talented actor at the helm.

Instead they went with a unproven fresh faced actress with a big forehead who they thought would market well as toys and who couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag.

You've obviously seen nothing else she's been in.

[tyrlaan]

Lol at the "TLJ was objectively bad" folks.

"TLJ was subjectively bad" is what you want to say, but you just can't come to terms with people liking different things.

[Sunseeker]

Lol at the "TLJ was objectively bad" folks.

"TLJ was subjectively bad" is what you want to say, but you just can't come to terms with people liking different things.

Right? I mean, I like all the Star Wars movies, but I'm not going to parade them around as cinematic masterpieces.

[eschatological]

Man, it's 2018 and people are still litigating the prequels. I just want those crappy movies forgotten in the dustbin of history. They're awful. Forget the nonsensical plot. Forget the wooden acting. It is written poorly, the dialogue sounds like the dialogue an 8th grader would write, its characters are flat and uninteresting, and act like 8th graders, and the movie is shot and directed like an 8th grader googling a YouTube tutorial on how to shoot your first movie.


Yes, I'm arguing an 8th grader could have made the prequel movies.

[s_bushido]

Man, it's 2018 and people are still litigating the prequels. I just want those crappy movies forgotten in the dustbin of history. They're awful. Forget the nonsensical plot. Forget the wooden acting. It is written poorly, the dialogue sounds like the dialogue an 8th grader would write, its characters are flat and uninteresting, and act like 8th graders, and the movie is shot and directed like an 8th grader googling a YouTube tutorial on how to shoot your first movie.


Yes, I'm arguing an 8th grader could have made the prequel movies.

We can't forget them, because they're STAR WARS™. And since people have convinced themselves that STAR WARS™ is more than just a movie franchise, mediocre/bad entries in that franchise can't just mediocre/bad movies...they have to be personal insults to every fan (or have their flaws rationalized away).

[RobertoCarlos]

You've obviously seen nothing else she's been in.

That would require her actually having a film career.

Shes played a dead body for a CSI show and shes been in that awful train detective movie where again she was stiff and over acted.

Much like her role as a dead body.

[jakeic]

Right? I mean, I like all the Star Wars movies, but I'm not going to parade them around as cinematic masterpieces.

https://www.afi.com/100Years/movies10.aspx

Star Wars appears at number 13. This is a revised list, which came out in 2008. The original list was done as a 100 year celebration of film and released in 1998 where Star Wars appeared at number 15.

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls055592025/

Star Wars appears at number 20.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li...e-films-810496

Empire Strikes Back appears at number 32 and Star Wars at number 12.

[Deleted]

The thing is, why does Plapatine want to be Emperor? As Chancellor of the Republic he's already the single strongest political person,

Why did Cesar wanted to be dictator for life (Emperor in all in name) As Consul of the Republic he's already the single strongest political person?

Human naute, he do not have to share power with the senate.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Hint: Jar Jar Binks has been hidden for months in the OP yet no one has commented on it. Try to find him!

[PACOX]

The thing is, why does Plapatine want to be Emperor? As Chancellor of the Republic he's already the single strongest political person, he has the Jedi as lap dogs with Yoda himself considered a trusted adviser, and was already capable of doing whatever he wanted since he was the defacto ruler of both the Republic and the Trade Federation.

It would have made far more sense from a story perspective for Plapatine to be a military leader who gains popularity from successful campaigns in the outer rim who returns to the inner systems to face some sort of existential crisis and then places he himself as Emperor.

Palpatine wanted more power. Absolute power. He had a lot of power in the Senate but he still had to play by the rules of the Senate. He could be overruled, he had to respect the wishes other others, the balance of power, etc. Most of the Senate was made up of a bunch of pacifist (hence they had to use the Clones and Jedi to fight their war). The Senate also wouldn't have allowed him to put down threats like the CIS. Even though Palpatine expedited the actual war, there were those within the Senate he were fine with members of the CIS going the separate way (the war was about systems wanting their independence). Being Chancellor didn't give him the power he felt like he needed to make sure systems stayed under his thumb.

As a Sith he also just downright hated the Jedi. He didn't just destroy the Jedi for himself, he destroyed them for the generations of Sith that came before him. Sith seek power, the lust for it. Their philosphy is that you should become as powerful as possible. Being content with allowing the Jedi to exist and maintaining the position of Chancellor was literally against his religion. He took the Sith philosphy to his gave where he told the remaining elite of the Empire to purge all what he considered weak and undersirable because Sith believe the only acceptable form of succession is through those who are stronger than you.

[Atrea]

ITT: a bunch of people whose dates of births often fall AFTER the release of Episodes 1, 2, and even 3, have very strong opinions about Episodes 7, 8 and 9 failing to live up to Episodes 4, 5 and 6.

I enjoyed every Star Wars movie, and I'm sure Episode 9 will be great too.

[Fayolynn]

ITT: a bunch of people whose dates of births often fall AFTER the release of Episodes 1, 2, and even 3, have very strong opinions about Episodes 7, 8 and 9 failing to live up to Episodes 4, 5 and 6.

I enjoyed every Star Wars movie, and I'm sure Episode 9 will be great too.

How does when people were born matter?

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

How does when people were born matter?

people born after the year 2000 tend to be loud mouth know it alls because they've never not been without their all knowing medium, the internet.

this is a generalization, of course, but I would even go as far as to say many of them have never had to think their own thoughts. which is why solo didn't do so hot in theaters, because people believed what other people said even before the movie came out.

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ITT: a bunch of people whose dates of births often fall AFTER the release of Episodes 1, 2, and even 3, have very strong opinions about Episodes 7, 8 and 9 failing to live up to Episodes 4, 5 and 6.

I enjoyed every Star Wars movie, and I'm sure Episode 9 will be great too.

I'm with this guy.

movie about magical space wizards, their laser swords, and the rabble that fights all around them. sit back, enjoy. it's for fun