Is master looter gone forever?

[Keashaa]

Exactly why I like PL in that it completely removes loot drama among other benefits.. I think that the reason there are those still against PL is that they can no longer funnel gear to certain people..

lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl lol rofl

Oh, that wasn't sarcastic? Of course there's still loot drama, of course there's still loot drama in PuGs. Where's the difference "Noooooo, why does that ML give my piece of loot to that bitch?" and "Noooooo, why does that RNG give my piece of loot to that bitch?"

[Enosh]

ML was removed to lengthen the time it takes to gear

eh, personal anecdote, but didn't feel like it took any longer to get decent raid gear
granted didn't count days to compare or anything

[Deleted]

Except they are right? ML was removed from pugs in wod which was years ago that's when the 80 percent rule was added.

They are wrong and you are wrong, ML was removed for pugs in Legion

[niil945]

ML is gone. Blizzard has not indicated they are unhappy with that decision. They've made no mention whatsoever that they are even considering reverting back to ML. It's dead. It's not coming back. And that's a great thing.

[Thestuff1992]

ML is gone. Blizzard has not indicated they are unhappy with that decision. They've made no mention whatsoever that they are even considering reverting back to ML. It's dead. It's not coming back. And that's a great thing.

No it really isn’t. It’s actually a horrible thing for multiple reasons:

1. It enables selfishness. Raiding requires teamwork and most guilds will have a system that hands gear to the players it would benefit the most. Yes there are guilds that abuse this and give gear to whoever and it’s very easy to just leave that guild. However now instead of loot getting handed to people in GUILD raids (which is completely fine by the way, it’s their guild) everyone gets what they get as if someone gets an item that’s an upgrade for you but can’t trade it thats just tough luck. It also enables people to guild hop and get gear if you get a trial in such a guild.

Instead of just leaving the guilds that abuse ML, people stayed and decided to complain instead? I’ve been in quite a few guilds that abused ML back in WoD and the start of legion when I decided to get into raiding. All I did was leave, it was actually that easy. Instead, you’d rather just have choice removed from the game? Nice. That’ll definitely make it better!

2. It removes choice. Personal loot was already forced if your group was less than 80% guild members, so this was essentially a non issue in pugs. ML was just a choice that guilds could have if they wanted some form of organization for loot. Of course some guilds would be “corrupt” so instead of crying you’d just leave as I said before. Rather than removing an option that plenty of guilds don’t abuse, just leave the guild that is abusing it.

3. The “trial” argument. So, the main argument for the removal of ML was trials not getting loot. How is this bad? First, you applied to a guild that has a trial period. Why would you expect anything if these raiders are still gearing their main team? Being a trial isn’t just a test towards your actual skill, it’s a test towards you as a person. If you’re an ass and people don’t want to put up with you, they didn’t just waste 2 weeks of gear on you. Most trials -know- they’re last priority for loot during their trial period because everyone’s warming up to you and waiting to see what you can do. If you apply to a guild without reading any information or asking any questions and you don’t know there’s a trial period either leave or ask about it.

All of the solutions to the problems ML supposedly brought are so easily done. It’s actually crazy to me that people cant just leave a guild they joined if they don’t like the trial policy. And to be honest, I’ve lurked here and on the official forums for a long time and I really haven’t seen many complaints about master loot. It seems like ion just wanted to remove it for whatever reason because I actually didn’t see many people complaining about it at all.

[druenos]

this post gave me cancer

Sucks to be you then lol

[kamuimac]

Depends how the loot was distributed based on my experience. Loot councils tended to play favorites whether they will admit it or not. DKP seemed the most fair but, it also has its drawbacks.

I always prefered suicide kings over any epgp or dkp . Shame so few guilds used it since in my eyes IT was the most fair system with ml . I guess that's why i liked pl since its beginings

- - - Updated - - -

Personal loot needs to go, at least as the default loot mode.
Paired with titan-forging and Blizzard's inability to balance secondary stats it makes gearing in a dedicated group super frustrating.

And why it makes it frustrating ? Because officers cant gear their buddies first anymore ? Truly world must be ending most of people dont see any difference. Maybe think why is this like that

[Dikka]

As a community Blizzard won’t let my guild make our own decisions. We would like to make a democratic choice between ML and PL but Blizzard won’t allow us this choice. We feel like Blizzard are turning Azeroth into a fantasy version of North Korea

That was already addressed. You can make democratic choice in favor of "ML-like" loot distribution right now. Or join the guild that already make that choice.
You may also start distributing your loot in "ML-like" if you want.

But I guess this is not what you want. Or what you do. Looks like you just enjoy repeating this nonsense about North Korea.
Well, my dear grown up, whatever melts your butter.

[Kaver]

That was already addressed. You can make democratic choice in favor of "ML-like" loot distribution right now. Or join the guild that already make that choice.
You may also start distributing your loot in "ML-like" if you want.

But I guess this is not what you want. Or what you do. Looks like you just enjoy repeating this nonsense about North Korea.
Well, my dear grown up, whatever melts your butter.

Come on bro, now you’re being just a teeny weeny bit childish again All I want is for Blizzard to let the players make their own decisions, especially guilds

[Xath]

They are wrong and you are wrong, ML was removed for pugs in Legion

No it was removed in late wod even it was removed in legion that would still be years.

- - - Updated - - -

eh, personal anecdote, but didn't feel like it took any longer to get decent raid gear
granted didn't count days to compare or anything

It does lengthen progression time for the average guild as you can't channel gear into the specific people nedded for progress.

- - - Updated - - -

I always prefered suicide kings over any epgp or dkp . Shame so few guilds used it since in my eyes IT was the most fair system with ml . I guess that's why i liked pl since its beginings

- - - Updated - - -



And why it makes it frustrating ? Because officers cant gear their buddies first anymore ? Truly world must be ending most of people dont see any difference. Maybe think why is this like that

That didn't happen in any decent guilds what would happen is channeling gear onto dps once eh for tanks and healing reqs were met. Any guild that tried to just give loot to the gm and their buddies would get a rep from that and die.

[Zyky]

Hey guys,

As a GM and raid leader, i used to find master looter extremely useful. We used it along with EPGP as a means of rewarding the most deserving players that put time and effort into the guild. The loot was the carrot and EPGP was the stick. This meant that we were able to reward players who helped the guild/raid team and discipline players who were not compliant (wouldn't sign for raids, didn't turn up, were always late, weren't prepared with enchants and gems etc).

Now with this gone, it is very difficult to enforce any structure within our guild as the carrot has been taken away and we are finding players largely do what they want knowing that they have just the same chance of loot as anyone else, even vs. the 100% attendance guy who gives it there all on every progress raid. If they are there on the kill night, they can get the loot.

This is not a discussion about ML vs PL as I don't really care what people think about it. For us ML was great and now we are noticing significant negatives with it gone.

My question is more around whether or not there are any posts or noises made by blizzard about ever bringing it back? Also are there any posts still going on the official wow forums about this. It seems to have gone very quiet since about July so maybe the community has just accepted ML is gone for good?

Thanks

Probably gone for good, the next argument they'll use probably will be "if you want master loot classic is right there waiting for you".

[niil945]

No it really isn’t. It’s actually a horrible thing for multiple reasons:

Cool, you have a different opinion. One that I'll forget the moment I move onto the next thread I read because your arguments are tired and irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that Blizzard isn't going to bring ML back because of a completely trivial number of people crying about it.

[Deleted]

I feel that I already answer that. Of cause you can my grown-up friend.
Just give away all your loot when you can. This will effectively turn your loot distribution into ML.
And your guildies can do the same. And you can vote and make that a guild rule.

Again, total number of choices is greatly increased.

There's a difference between master loot and personal loot with "master loot" like rules enforced. One doesn't let you trade items if said item is the highest ilvl. You keep saying "Just give away all your loot" but Blizzard doesn't let you do that if there's a restriction. Master loot let people decide who got "your" loot without that restriction, and that's all we want. We don't want a "if you can" scenario, but a "we want to give our loot". If Blizzard removed that restriction, that would be more "master loot" like.

[ydraw]

Except this system is worse, cause progression guilds have to find a way around that limitation to still control a bit how loot is given.
And this control in master loot was a good thing to make it fair to people who gets what. I really don't believe that this full-RNG system is better for progression guilds...

It's not.

But you have to remember that mythic progression guilds make up less than 1% of the total player population.

The lack of convenience for top 100 guilds is nothing compared to fixing the problem of people in cesspool heroic guilds being denied loot by bad GMs. The latter group massively outnumber the former.

Personally I think they should have just restricted Master Loot to mythic only, full guild group only raids.

[Thestuff1992]

Cool, you have a different opinion. One that I'll forget the moment I move onto the next thread I read because your arguments are tired and irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that Blizzard isn't going to bring ML back because of a completely trivial number of people crying about it.

Damn all that rude behavior. No wonder why you like the removal of ML, it definitely does support people with this mentality so I’m glad you like it, fits the stereotype perfectly. Probably trialed for a guild with this piss poor attitude and didn’t get anything but hey more power to you man.

[Djanco]

Lets face it. Master Looter was removed on the whim of Activision getting their claws deeper into Blizzard.

"Oh but Blizzard and Activision are separate entities!"

If you said that like.. 3 or 4 years ago, I'd believe you but ever since MoP I think Activision got their claws in the door. The whole "Year long expansions" reeks of Activision and the added things like Leveling boost and the blizzard store being so prominent tell me otherwise.

Now why do I think Activision wanted Master Looter removed? Simply, Less player control. Think about it. They knew that players who raided Mythic in Legion did not care about Titan / warforging because they were so close to the maximum item level they could afford to just say, fuck it and just retire. Worse yet, there ARE players who quit the game when the race for world first is over.

So how to fix this issue? simple. Remove Master looting, and reduce bonus chances to 2x per week vs 3. Remove the bonus loot chance from Timewalking weekly (Tell me no one else noticed that) and remove PVP vendors entirely and make it all RNG....

This 100%. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize these changes REEK of corporate meddling. obviously they can't just put in micro-transactions in a game that already has a subscription fee. so they'll do whatever they can to make things take longer so you don't farm everything you want in 3 weeks and quit until the next patch. this is why we still have things like warforging/titanforging- with that there is no hard BiS anymore, there's always an upgrade to be gained, however minuscule. this is why we have mounts that can only be acquired when you buy a 6 month sub. i think the devs are fully aware of the problems with the game they just can't do anything about it without an ok from the higher-ups.

[Tharkkun]

No it really isn’t. It’s actually a horrible thing for multiple reasons:

1. It enables selfishness. Raiding requires teamwork and most guilds will have a system that hands gear to the players it would benefit the most. Yes there are guilds that abuse this and give gear to whoever and it’s very easy to just leave that guild. However now instead of loot getting handed to people in GUILD raids (which is completely fine by the way, it’s their guild) everyone gets what they get as if someone gets an item that’s an upgrade for you but can’t trade it thats just tough luck. It also enables people to guild hop and get gear if you get a trial in such a guild.

Instead of just leaving the guilds that abuse ML, people stayed and decided to complain instead? I’ve been in quite a few guilds that abused ML back in WoD and the start of legion when I decided to get into raiding. All I did was leave, it was actually that easy. Instead, you’d rather just have choice removed from the game? Nice. That’ll definitely make it better!

2. It removes choice. Personal loot was already forced if your group was less than 80% guild members, so this was essentially a non issue in pugs. ML was just a choice that guilds could have if they wanted some form of organization for loot. Of course some guilds would be “corrupt” so instead of crying you’d just leave as I said before. Rather than removing an option that plenty of guilds don’t abuse, just leave the guild that is abusing it.

3. The “trial” argument. So, the main argument for the removal of ML was trials not getting loot. How is this bad? First, you applied to a guild that has a trial period. Why would you expect anything if these raiders are still gearing their main team? Being a trial isn’t just a test towards your actual skill, it’s a test towards you as a person. If you’re an ass and people don’t want to put up with you, they didn’t just waste 2 weeks of gear on you. Most trials -know- they’re last priority for loot during their trial period because everyone’s warming up to you and waiting to see what you can do. If you apply to a guild without reading any information or asking any questions and you don’t know there’s a trial period either leave or ask about it.

All of the solutions to the problems ML supposedly brought are so easily done. It’s actually crazy to me that people cant just leave a guild they joined if they don’t like the trial policy. And to be honest, I’ve lurked here and on the official forums for a long time and I really haven’t seen many complaints about master loot. It seems like ion just wanted to remove it for whatever reason because I actually didn’t see many people complaining about it at all.

It doesn't really matter what you think about Blizzard's arguments. ML is gone at this point. Blizzard told us why and gave us justifications. Just because you disagree with their reasoning doesn't make it incorrect. You have the option to play the game with the new rules or find something else to do with your time. There's no other way to say it.

[Keashaa]

That was already addressed. You can make democratic choice in favor of "ML-like" loot distribution right now. Or join the guild that already make that choice.
You may also start distributing your loot in "ML-like" if you want.

But I guess this is not what you want. Or what you do. Looks like you just enjoy repeating this nonsense about North Korea.
Well, my dear grown up, whatever melts your butter.

No, completely no. There is no "ML-like" loot distribution.
If I get a piece of loot, let's say item level 360 with bad secondary stats. I have an item with item level 355 and good secondary stats.
The system doesn't allow me to re-distribute that item to someone else because "F*ck, 360 bro! YOU NEED THIS!!!!!!" It's even weirder with weapons. I can have a one-handed int weapon and a shield (both at 385), so hey, "No, you can't trade that 370 int staff because YOU NEED THIS!!!!!!!!!!"

As long as I'm not allowed to trade whatever item I want the whole system is f*ck as hell.

[Skildar]

It's not.

But you have to remember that mythic progression guilds make up less than 1% of the total player population.

The lack of convenience for top 100 guilds is nothing compared to fixing the problem of people in cesspool heroic guilds being denied loot by bad GMs. The latter group massively outnumber the former.

Personally I think they should have just restricted Master Loot to mythic only, full guild group only raids.

I was not talking about top 100 guilds but more about mythic progressing guilds. But damn how right you are avout leaving the master loot to mythic guild groups

[exochaft]

As long as I'm not allowed to trade whatever item I want the whole system is f*ck as hell.

That's my biggest issue with the loot system currently, as I've personally run into loot restriction issues where I cannot trade items (or others cannot trade items) despite actually wanting to trade something off. I kind of get why they have these restrictions in PL, but those that would abuse such a system without said restrictions are in the extreme minority. Blizz saw the debacle when it came to Azerite gear, but they still haven't quite gotten the message with the rest of the loot.

Also, the downside of no master loot is that your chances of getting off-spec items or even special main spec items are potentially much lower depending upon your group comp. We're currently trying to get a BrM a 2H weapon out of Uldir, but we have so few people that can actually loot that item (even with off-spec looting) that the item never drops. Add on the previous issue stated above with trading restrictions, the issue gets far worse.

If Blizz wants to keep it PL, fine, but they need to remove all the trading restrictions so it truly is player's choice when it comes to dealing with loot they receive.