Opinion: Dedicated Players Owe the Community

[aceperson]

It's more for your sake than his because if Numbers dip low enough Activision will pull the plug and we are starting to approach the point where at least creating new expansions every two years is becoming a losing gambit. Now the game would stay on in mait mode for a bit most definitely but new content would kind of dry up.

no game lasts forever my son. if it's wows time to die, so be it. i enjoy the game and would be sad at its closing but thats on the cooperate suits that decided to screw the crowd funding their money makers.

[Xath]

no game lasts forever my son. if it's wows time to die, so be it. i enjoy the game and would be sad at its closing but thats on the cooperate suits that decided to screw the crowd funding their money makers.

That's actually the really bad part of online games. I can still pop in Super Smash 64 or Lego Racer and go play them if I want to I have kept the systems in good condition. I can't go play Wildstar or City of Heroes or Tabula Rasa or numerous other mmos because there is no single player version.

[Biomega]

Azerite, Islands and Warfronts have all been failures, the expansion's flagships have failed to sail in one way or another.

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Remember when they scrapped the Path of the Titans system entirely because they thought it didn't live up to standards? Where's THAT Blizzard?

I wholeheartedly agree that basically all of the expansion features turned out dismal failures. Islands are a joke and a chore with an absolutely terrible reward structure. Warfronts are no-lose scenarios where you just zerg your way through without strategy or engagement. Azerite is a burning hot mess with exploitative drop structures, and a Legion-like punishment mechanic for alternative specs and characters. None of these systems are remotely entertaining.

Players are not to blame for this. Corporate control is. The systems are designed to keep people occupied in the long term, with the between-raid lull being the big problem they're trying to solve. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way they lost sight of making things that are actually FUN, rather than simply engaging through their reward structure and threat of FOMO. Essentially, they were banking on people being invested into the franchise and on a lack of competition in the MMORPG sector. That they still had to deliver a fun experience got lost in the numbers somewhere.

[Marxman]

Blaming the players, who gave mountains upon mountains of feedback in alpha and beta, for the disaster that is BfA is the literal definition of white knighting. Blizzard has no one to blame but themselves. They got the feedback they needed to make the changes necessary for BfA to be a good experience. They did nothing with that feedback, and rushed out a buggy, poorly designed product.

Blizzard is not the victim here.

[Destinas]

Feedback is given plenty across plenty of platforms - official forums, fan sites, Twitter, Blizzcon, support/bug reports, alpha/beta testing, etc.

Every expansion has seen something that was given immense feedback about, only for Blizzard to ignore it and move forward anyway, changing things during the entire expansion's lifetime to accommodate to that feedback from the initial testing phases. For BfA, it's things like GCD changes, Azerite gear, the way Island Expeditions work, Warfronts in general, etc. Much of that is being changed by 8.1, and will continue to change.

Players do try to help. Dedicated players often are the ones giving a lot of feedback - sometimes it's well thought out criticism, sometimes it's not. The trick is Blizzard actually listening, and distinguishing what feedback they actually should listen to. It's a matter of different opinions - everyone has one, especially Blizzard themselves.

[melodramocracy]

Step in and do what, exactly? Dedicated players don't owe anything beyond their sub fee, just like anyone else.

[Seranthor]

I feel like serious players that enjoy WoW the most have the most to lose when something in the game isn't going right.

When something is going right - Blizz tends to 'build' off of that, iterating on positives. Not a terrible approach to have -- except this MUST include input from actual players. Legion had a lot of positives, yet as we can see in BfA, there's a significant lack of vision and planning.

You can attribute that failure to Blizzard doing it's own thing in an echo chamber, or not allowing opportunities for feedback, not taking the concerns of the players seriously. --We can't change any of that now.

My concern is that the people, the players, that really make things within the game develop, progress and become better -who invest a lot of time... things they were saying and what was said was missed and not communicated. Thereby, the vision of the game that got created... to a certain extent failed because it doesn't meet expectations, what's rewarding, what's fun, xyz reasons etc.


The discussion question is how to address this? People that have a serious stake in the game... will you do more? Does it even make sense to do so? There's always going to be people coming and going from the game... yet I feel at this point, big names and big players have to take a role and step in for Blizzard.

How are the players supposed to 'step in'? Please, explain, in detail.

[Elestia]

It's more for your sake than his because if Numbers dip low enough Activision will pull the plug and we are starting to approach the point where at least creating new expansions every two years is becoming a losing gambit. Now the game would stay on in mait mode for a bit most definitely but new content would kind of dry up.

Most excellent my dude...

This is exactly the angle I had in mind.


Like seriously, the clock is ticking and the game cannot afford any more major slip-ups. I'm 100% convinced if the playerbase were involved in helping to expand the future vision of the game you wouldn't have obvious design mistakes as with Azerite Armor, GCD changes, class balance, raid sets, peripheral content, daily rewards, etc.

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no game lasts forever my son. if it's wows time to die, so be it. i enjoy the game and would be sad at its closing but thats on the cooperate suits that decided to screw the crowd funding their money makers.

Except that's just it... There's plenty of people that make a living making entertainment content with WoW. There's people that have skin in the game.

[Rozz]

If your post was meant to encourage people to continue giving criticism and feedback, I fully agree. The community shouldn't stop since the devs rely on the dedicated few for some of their most important testing.

Unfortunately a lot of people feel far too ignored. There were criticisms, some fair and some not, but there were plenty. The issue is that Blizzard sees one thing that was good, does little to fix the core issue and just hopes band aid fixes will placate the majority that had an issue.

Think about the leveling change in 7.3.5 -- people were concerned and more so when it went live. They told us to roll with it and that it was fine--now they're undoing it and are even making it a bit faster than it previously was. Blizz make changes they're overly confident about, then ignore criticism until it's too much to ignore anymore. No one wants to scream at a brick wall that only waits until things are crumbling to move.

At the very least, communication needs to improve.

[Muajin76]

The turtle has reached the water.

The turtles never reach the water...tis only an illusion!

[tripleh]

Personally, I just hoping that Ion,Danuser,Alex and Lore/Josh Allen get fired.

[Seranthor]

Most excellent my dude...

This is exactly the angle I had in mind.


Like seriously, the clock is ticking and the game cannot afford any more major slip-ups. I'm 100% convinced if the playerbase were involved in helping to expand the future vision of the game you wouldn't have obvious design mistakes as with Azerite Armor, GCD changes, class balance, raid sets, peripheral content, daily rewards, etc.

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Except that's just it... There's plenty of people that make a living making entertainment content with WoW. There's people that have skin in the game.

How EXACTLY do you plan to force Blizzard to listen to you or to anyone else you deem to have 'skin in the game'?

[Elestia]

If your post was meant to encourage people to continue giving criticism and feedback, I fully agree. The community shouldn't stop since the devs rely on the dedicated few for some of their most important testing.

At the very least, communication needs to improve.

Definitely. Communication is very much needed -- the next step is to at minimum allow the playerbase a platform for conversation, especially people that rely on the game / are heavily invested.

[Seranthor]

Definitely. Communication is very much needed -- the next step is to at minimum allow the playerbase a platform for conversation, especially people that rely on the game / are heavily invested.

What 'platform' are you suggesting? Why should the people that 'rely on the game' get more of a voice?

[Elestia]

How EXACTLY do you plan to force Blizzard to listen to you or to anyone else you deem to have 'skin in the game'?

I wouldn't plan to force anything. I do think that if Blizzard doesn't listen and makes the same mistakes on into the future there won't be people playing the game.

It's a matter of necessity for Blizz, from my perspective anyways.


Sorry if this is difficult for you, as I'm not discussing anything really concrete. This is all purely speculative..

[Seranthor]

I wouldn't plan to force anything. I do think that if Blizzard doesn't listen and makes the same mistakes on into the future there won't be people playing the game.

It's a matter of necessity for Blizz, from my perspective anyways.

Blizzard's game... they dont have to listen to anyone... they are under no obligation to listen to you, me, or any of the folks you deem worthy with 'skin in the game'...

Blizzard is going to do what Blizzard wants, regardless of your perspective.

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I absolutely understand your broken perspective... Problem is the 'Dedicated' players owe the community nothing.... the 'Dedicated' players owe YOU nothing. not concrete, not in speculation... nothing at all.

Blizzard doesn't owe the people that 'rely' on the game anything. Blizzard doesn't own the people that are 'heavily invested' in the game anything...

Blizzard exists to make money for their shareholders... their only obligation is to them...

[Muajin76]

I think if RIFTS ever gets off the ground as a mmorpg, that would give WoW some good competition, maybe better improves will get made to the game. However, that may never happen. Palladium is quite content not making it into a mmorpg. T.T

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Personally, I just hoping that Ion,Danuser,Alex and Lore/Josh Allen get fired.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ion gets fired after the bfa mess.

[Elestia]

Blizzard's game... they dont have to listen to anyone... they are under no obligation to listen to you, me, or any of the folks you deem worthy with 'skin in the game'...

Blizzard is going to do what Blizzard wants, regardless of your perspective.

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I absolutely understand your broken perspective... Problem is the 'Dedicated' players owe the community nothing.... the 'Dedicated' players owe YOU nothing. not concrete, not in speculation... nothing at all.

Blizzard doesn't owe the people that 'rely' on the game anything. Blizzard doesn't own the people that are 'heavily invested' in the game anything...

Blizzard exists to make money for their shareholders... their only obligation is to them...

I'm talking about what the game needs to be successful. Not what any particular party is actually obliged, legally or forcibly otherwise, to give to the game.

There are other ways for both Blizz and community leaders to feel induced into having a conversation space. It would benefit everyone greatly.


Ultimately though, it's the community that must send things in a positive direction. As you aptly articulated, Blizzard is about the money only - although I would say at worst they're that. As a company they do care about the game and it shows in the product they deliver. However, big mistake have real consequences for people outside of Blizz. I think a lot of the tip toeing Blizzard does is for legal reasons whereas they don't want lawsuits. At the same time they need the input and guidance community members could provide.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Ion gets fired after the bfa mess.

The dude plays and genuinely cares about the game. The 'gunning it' attitude though when the majority of people are saying no is not good however.


Also the facepalming was real for literally anyone that mains a shaman.

[Seranthor]

I'm talking about what the game needs to be successful. Not what any particular party is actually obliged, legally or forcibly otherwise, to give to the game.

There are other ways for both Blizz and community leaders to feel induced into having a conversation space. It would benefit everyone greatly.


Ultimately though, it's the community that must send things in a positive direction. As you aptly articulated, Blizzard is about the money only - although I would say at worst they're that. As a company they do care about the game and it shows in the product they deliver. However, big mistake have real consequences for people outside of Blizz. I think a lot of the tip toeing Blizzard does is for legal reasons whereas they don't want lawsuits. At the same time they need the input and guidance community members could provide.

1) 'Successful' is subjective... what you might deem successful is not what Blizzard deems successful... their definition of successful isn't your. Welcome to the curb

2) 'induced into a conversation'... Benefit who exactly and how?

3) it's the community that must send things in a positive direction... how? details please.

4) big mistake have real consequences for people outside of Blizz... huh, what? details please.

5) I think a lot of the tip toeing Blizzard does is for legal reasons whereas they don't want lawsuits... huh, what? you are going to have to explain this too.

6) At the same time they need the input and guidance community members could provide... 'guidance'? for WHAT?

I await your responses.

[VladimirM]

I would like to know is it like this in all games? Do players whine about how game should look?
From my experience, I buy a game, I play it, if I don't like it, I move on. I don't try to force my vision of it.
Maybe I am wrong, I don't know.
I've been playing this for a long time. I played it in a lot of different ways, with different goals. I adapted to what I was offered, and found something that was interesting to me.
Again, Maybe I am wrong.