Koltira Deathweaver Imprisoned in Legion...why?

[gaymer77]

So I decided to go back and do some of the Legion campaign crap on my Troll deathknight (already did most of it on my Night Elf during Legion) and I just did the part where you rescue Koltira Deathweaver. It got me thinking, why was he imprisoned by Sylvanas?

[ohwell]

So I decided to go back and do some of the Legion campaign crap on my Troll deathknight (already did most of it on my Night Elf during Legion) and I just did the part where you rescue Koltira Deathweaver. It got me thinking, why was he imprisoned by Sylvanas?

He entered a truce with Thassarian at Andorhal rather than defeating the Alliance outright.

[GreenJesus]

Koltira valued his old alliance with a human over winning the battle for the Horde and costed Sylvanas resources.

[omeomorfismo]

because apparently execute an incompetent and nearly traitor commander its too strong...

[Vonazak]

The guy was a traitor to the horde ans deserved worse, but maybe Sylvanas turned him into his boitoy until she reforged Nathanos

[Super Dickmann]

He tipped off Thassarian and so risked the Forsaken plans in Andorhal. He was sent to Sylvanas' bondage dungeon as punishment, but apparently it had no effect.

[Kallisto]

Because in short he betrayed his oath to the warchief, his oath to the forsaken, his position as General to the horde right on the door step of a capital. Basically ask yourself. "What would Varian have done if Thassarian basically almost handed over RedRidge/Duskwood/Westfall to the horde?"

[Feanoro]

"What would Varian have done if Thassarian basically almost handed over RedRidge/Duskwood/Westfall to the horde?"

Not a damn thing, because the writers wouldn't have followed up on it. They would have told the story of a Horde victory, anything else is details.

[Mehrunes]

Let's see. He made an unauthorized truce with the enemy. An enemy that he was explicitly told to defeat, which makes the truce even worse. That is already enough to sentence him to death. But then Thassarian couldn't keep his peasant mob in check and they broke the truce, attacking the Forsaken and taking them by surprise. I.e. Koltira's idiocy caused casualties that were utterly pointless on his own side.

Not a damn thing, because the writers wouldn't have followed up on it. They would have told the story of a Horde victory, anything else is details.

True story. Happens in every zone. Hell, it happens IRL too. Every news story is about Horde this, Horde that and anything else is details. Because HORDE BIAS is totally real and not a nonsensical conspiracy theory.

[Grazrug]

So I decided to go back and do some of the Legion campaign crap on my Troll deathknight (already did most of it on my Night Elf during Legion) and I just did the part where you rescue Koltira Deathweaver. It got me thinking, why was he imprisoned by Sylvanas?

That pathetic mongrel escaped due to the help of the Lich King and his Death Knight servants. They all need to pay for their arrogance They are just as bad as the scourge after their attack of light hope's chapel.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's see. He made an unauthorized truce with the enemy. An enemy that he was explicitly told to defeat, which makes the truce even worse. That is already enough to sentence him to death. But then Thassarian couldn't keep his peasant mob in check and they broke the truce, attacking the Forsaken and taking them by surprise. I.e. Koltira's idiocy caused casualties that were utterly pointless on his own side.




True story. Happens in every zone. Hell, it happens IRL too. Every news story is about Horde this, Horde that and anything else is details. Because HORDE BIAS is totally real and not a nonsensical conspiracy theory.

This man speaks wise.

[Nathasil]

To tell some truth over the matter instead of all the Sylvanas/Horde apologists so far....

The Battle over Andorhal was a battle between THREE factions: Alliance, Horde and Scourge.

Thassarian and Koltira focussed their efforts on the Scourge first, because they knew it was the most dangerous enemy. They found themselves in a battle with Gandling. After Gandling withdrew they stood there, facing each other....and told each other that while they would not fight and kill each other now, they would next time they meet.

The Alliance Farmers then attacked the Horde and forced Koltira to engage the Alliance.

Thassarian and the humans made their move. I thought I had an agreement with Thassarian... but I suppose this will do.

To the west, deep within Alliance-held Andorhal, you will find their commanders. They do not fight, but call out orders from horseback.

Hunt down and slay these commanders, <name>. The humans won't stand a chance.

Well done. With them out of the way, I have no more excuses.

Soon, I must battle Thassarian, for honor and for Andorhal.

At this point, Sylvanas drops her disguise and starts to employ Scourge-Tactics - thereby betraying the current Warchief of the Horde - and abducting Koltira to torture him.

Now, lets ask ourselves a few questions:
1) Did Sylvanas have the RIGHT to imprison and torture a Horde Commander without trial for YEARS? Is there any other example of something like this? AFAIK only the Warchief had that kind of unquestionable power.
2) Did Koltira actually betray the Horde or not? That would be an interesting discussion to have. I would say yes.
3) It is clear from the Silverpine/Gilneas questline that Sylvanas herself is in direct betrayal of the Horde. Andorhal happens later. So does she have a RIGHT to condemn anybody for treason? I would say no. I would also say that she is only pissed because Koltira did not do what SHE wants...instead of what the Horde wants. That's why she is holding him as a personal prisoner.

I think what we all can agree on is that after Legion the Death Knights (including the PC) are pretty much at war with Sylvanas, if not the Horde+Alliance as factions. It makes absolutely no sense for a PC DK to take part in a "faction conflict"...especially on Sylvanas' side.

[Stooned]

Let's see. He made an unauthorized truce with the enemy. An enemy that he was explicitly told to defeat, which makes the truce even worse. That is already enough to sentence him to death. But then Thassarian couldn't keep his peasant mob in check and they broke the truce, attacking the Forsaken and taking them by surprise. I.e. Koltira's idiocy caused casualties that were utterly pointless on his own side.




True story. Happens in every zone. Hell, it happens IRL too. Every news story is about Horde this, Horde that and anything else is details. Because HORDE BIAS is totally real and not a nonsensical conspiracy theory.

Yaaaaaaawn.

[Th3Scourge]

Go do the Andorhal quest line in WPL, it's quite good!

[mickybrighteyes]

Now, lets ask ourselves a few questions:
1) Did Sylvanas have the RIGHT to imprison and torture a Horde Commander without trial for YEARS? Is there any other example of something like this? AFAIK only the Warchief had that kind of unquestionable power.

honestly there are fewer cases of military leaders suffering consequences for their actions than there are fingers on an troll's hand... fewer still where the commander in question survives. not sure what can be gained to discuss the authority of any given figure for their handling of apparent traitors.

3) It is clear from the Silverpine/Gilneas questline that Sylvanas herself is in direct betrayal of the Horde. Andorhal happens later. So does she have a RIGHT to condemn anybody for treason? I would say no. I would also say that she is only pissed because Koltira did not do what SHE wants...instead of what the Horde wants. That's why she is holding him as a personal prisoner.

i think this line of reasoning is a poor bit of logic to follow. Sylvanas' treason in the Sacking of Gilneas didn't involve colluding with enemy forces. Different cases, different examples of disregard for one's orders. Sure you can say what right does she have to get one someone's case for not following orders... but that doesn't lessen the fact that Koltira was working WITH the enemy he was ordered to be fighting, this is a far cry from disregarding RoE.

as to whether or not Sylvanas has a right to act in this case? As the acting Commander in charge of the forces Koltira was working with... yes she had the right to act. I would say Garrosh had the same right in the Gilneas campaign as well, but didn't act on it.

[Mehrunes]

Yaaaaaaawn.

Great contribution you got here.

[Aeula]

He was one of Sylvanas' commanders at Andorhal. He made a stupid decision based on his friendship with a Human and it cost Horde lives.

[sighy]

honestly there are fewer cases of military leaders suffering consequences for their actions than there are fingers on an troll's hand... fewer still where the commander in question survives. not sure what can be gained to discuss the authority of any given figure for their handling of apparent traitors.


i think this line of reasoning is a poor bit of logic to follow. Sylvanas' treason in the Sacking of Gilneas didn't involve colluding with enemy forces. Different cases, different examples of disregard for one's orders. Sure you can say what right does she have to get one someone's case for not following orders... but that doesn't lessen the fact that Koltira was working WITH the enemy he was ordered to be fighting, this is a far cry from disregarding RoE.

as to whether or not Sylvanas has a right to act in this case? As the acting Commander in charge of the forces Koltira was working with... yes she had the right to act. I would say Garrosh had the same right in the Gilneas campaign as well, but didn't act on it.

Now the real question. Would Koltira have been better off, if Garry learned of it?

[Mehrunes]

To tell some truth over the matter instead of all the Sylvanas/Horde apologists so far....

The Battle over Andorhal was a battle between THREE factions: Alliance, Horde and Scourge.

Thassarian and Koltira focussed their efforts on the Scourge first, because they knew it was the most dangerous enemy. They found themselves in a battle with Gandling. After Gandling withdrew they stood there, facing each other....and told each other that while they would not fight and kill each other now, they would next time they meet.

The Alliance Farmers then attacked the Horde and forced Koltira to engage the Alliance.

Top notch "truth" you got here. Never mind that no one denied that Battle for Andorhal included the Scourge at the start. But the battle for Andorhal being between three factions at the start does not change the fact that Koltira was at no point authorized to make truce with either of the two enemy factions to team up against the other. Meaning that him doing so was treason through and through. Making your "truth" a non-contribution, that counters nothing that has been said in the thread by your "Sylvanas apologists" boogeyman (an accusation particularly pointless in this case because later on you agreed that Koltira did in fact commit treason).

At this point, Sylvanas drops her disguise and starts to employ Scourge-Tactics - thereby betraying the current Warchief of the Horde - and abducting Koltira to torture him.

When did Garrosh forbid her from resurrecting humans?

Now, lets ask ourselves a few questions:
1) Did Sylvanas have the RIGHT to imprison and torture a Horde Commander without trial for YEARS? Is there any other example of something like this? AFAIK only the Warchief had that kind of unquestionable power.

Except he wasn't Horde commander. He was Forsaken commander. He was called her majesty's top death knight. Garrosh wasn't a majesty and he most certainly wasn't a her. And Stillwater was outright executed in Sylvanas' name a zone earlier, so you have nothing to stand on here.

3) It is clear from the Silverpine/Gilneas questline that Sylvanas herself is in direct betrayal of the Horde. Andorhal happens later. So does she have a RIGHT to condemn anybody for treason? I would say no. I would also say that she is only pissed because Koltira did not do what SHE wants...instead of what the Horde wants. That's why she is holding him as a personal prisoner.

And when did she directly betray the Horde in Gilneas? When she used the Blight when Garrosh forbade the usage of Plague? Which he did specifically to cause the Forsaken to deplete themselves while fighting a conventional war? No one is obliged to follow suicidal orders. And Gilneas has nothing.

[Super Kami Dende]

Because Sylvanas is a cunt with horrible story writing.

[Verdugo]

Because Sylvanas is a cunt with horrible story writing.

What does it say about Koltira then.