"Horde didnt really question themselves during MoP so we are doing it again"

[Kralljin]

I really have a hard time grasping how anyone could have thought it would be a great idea to basically repeat the same plot with so many characters on the same side adapting similiar role(s).

You have:
Sylvanas as Garrosh
Saurfang opposing Garrosh / Sylvanas
Baine complaining about Garrosh / Sylvanas

Anduin replacing his Father and Garrosh / Sylvanas counterpart.
Genn having a hateboner for Sylvanas
Jaine having a hateboner for the Horde

The irony of this situation is that the greatest change is that Sylvanas became Warchief, nothing else, no new motivations / PoV, nothing.


I mean think about it, that's like Lucas remaking A Phantom Menance but changing nothing besides the actor of Darth Maul and doubling the runtime of every single council / round table discussion scene.

Soon it will be revealed how the Pandaren have suffered more than any other and we'll all be made to feel bad again.

How about some Tortollan complaining about overpopulation?

[Zandalariprelate]

Dear Azeroth, don't be surprised if the next expansion is another time travel, this time Sylvanas escapes to another Azeroth and we are attacked by a fully united world leaded by Arthas only for the final patch to reveal the a void lord as final boss

[Necroxis]

Oke, I have to ask.

Where's that Christie Golden anti-toxic masculinity thing coming from?

Manchildren butthurt that the narrative isn't, "CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES, SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, AND TO HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN!" for the Horde anymore, probably because that's something only 11 year old boys would like. Because Blizzard wants to try to show some actual emotional toll on characters who have been hardcore warriors for their entire lives and how its kind of fucked them up almost beyond repair.

Also Christie Golden has become the new scapegoat like Metzen was since she's the highest up narrative designer that is active on Twitter. And because Golden, a single time, said she was proud that a character she lobbied to become an actual character (With The Shattering) didn't exhibit the traits of toxic masculinity.

But the manchildren took that and pretend that Golden is some raging stereotype of a feminist at Blizzard stomping her feet and smashing her fists on the table and demanding that they make the story into every example of what they think is bad. Even though she doesn't even decide on the story choices and is there to make the story more descriptive or "fluffier" instead of actually writing the actual new factual canon. She doesn't even decide what happens to Anduin, but rather just writes things more colorful with an outline of what Afrasiabi wants to happen.

[Super Dickmann]

But the manchildren took that and pretend that Golden is some raging stereotype of a feminist at Blizzard stomping her feet and smashing her fists on the table and demanding that they make the story into every example of what they think is bad. Even though she doesn't even decide on the story choices and is there to make the story more descriptive or "fluffier" instead of actually writing the actual new factual canon. She doesn't even decide what happens to Anduin, but rather just writes things more colorful with an outline of what Afrasiabi wants to happen.

How does that change that she has been the primary person writing Anduin for ten years now and he's always been the same perfect golden boy throughout under her direction, with whom no disagreement ever takes place? And where have you seen anyone defend any of the other hacks just as responsible for this rubbish. Or that Anduin as a paragon of non-toxic masculinity is what she said verbatim? Or did the manchildren doctor her posts?

[Aucald]

https://i.imgur.com/Ybhj1zV.png

I guess this plaque in Orgrimmar is just there for shits n giggles then.

The plaque advises one to never forget - it doesn't imply or otherwise guarantee that the Horde won't forget.

[Necroxis]

The same 'perfect boy' who Genn and Velen talk about not knowing how to lead after Varian's death and show serious doubt in him as a King during Legion?

The same 'perfect boy' who sits there and acknowledges he doesn't know wtf to do about Sylvanas as he oversees a ton coffins from soldiers during the Blood War.

The same 'perfect boy' who made the critical mistake of allowing Calia Menethil to attend a highly controversial and politically charged meeting with the leader of the opposite faction, completely ruining his plan for peace between the Forsaken and Stormwind, his one and only goal in the entire book.

The same 'perfect boy' who refuses to aid the Night Elves and sees them and the Gilneans abandon the attack on Dazar'alor in favor of attacking Darkshore.

Its almost like this "Anduin's perfect" meme is a complete farce and just used by fanboys who just hate him, huh?

Or that Anduin as a paragon of non-toxic masculinity is what she said verbatim?

Man its almost like she was responding to somebody making fun of a male character she had a hand in writing by calling him weak or gay just because he strove for peace. You and the other Sylvanas/Horde manchildren act like she ran out into the streets screaming it when she was responding to what people were asking/accusing of her.

Also who fucking cares that she talked about being proud that Anduin wasn't exhibiting toxic masculinity? Are you a 12 year old who got triggered and had their feelings hurt because a character is something you don't like? How do you exist in the world at all like that?

[Jimusmc]

and this is why blizz is dying and everyone is leaving

[Super Dickmann]

Its almost like this "Anduin's perfect" meme is a complete farce and used by fanboys who just hate him, huh?

This is pathetic damage control even by your standards. Anduin being unsure of what to do in the face of Sylvanas just being that horribly evil isn't a flaw, it's meant to make us love him more and is treated with full understanding by the only person in attendance. He has an epiphany not five seconds later when he teaches Saurfang about honor and sends him off to save the Horde. The Calia thing is laid purely at Sylvanas' feet by every character present and she also comes back, having lost nothing except become even more enlightened. Everyone present also comes around to seeing that the undead are great, just as Anduin does, their prejudice of fifteen years evaporated.

Genn does not abandon the attack on Dazar'alor. He meekly apologizes to Anduin for going to aid them and is allowed to do so, then still shows up in Dazar'alor as a principal character per his dialogue with Rastakhan. The whole thing has no negative consequences to speak of for anyone since the Alliance succeeds on every front anyway and Anduin's war goals are peace and forgiveness, something that clashes completely with the night elves who actually want revenge, because they're ever so slightly miffed with the genocide of their species. They are the ones cast in the wrong in this, as per usual.

This is a character with whom agreement has always been portrayed as the correct option, who has never suffered a setback that was his own fault and laid at his own feet, who's every opponent is a comedy-level evil strawman or immediately comes around to agreeing with him within five minutes. He's pure narrative cancer.

[Arrashi]

The same 'perfect boy' who Genn and Velen talk about not knowing how to lead after Varian's death and show serious doubt in him as a King during Legion?

The same 'perfect boy' who sits there and acknowledges he doesn't know wtf to do about Sylvanas as he oversees a ton coffins from soldiers during the Blood War.

The same 'perfect boy' who made the critical mistake of allowing Calia Menethil to attend a highly controversial and politically charged meeting with the leader of the opposite faction, completely ruining his plan for peace between the Forsaken and Stormwind, his one and only goal in the entire book.

The same 'perfect boy' who refuses to aid the Night Elves and sees them and the Gilneans abandon the attack on Dazar'alor in favor of attacking Darkshore.

Its almost like this "Anduin's perfect" meme is a complete farce and just used by fanboys who just hate him, huh?



Man its almost like she was responding to somebody making fun of a male character she had a hand in writing by calling him weak or gay just because he strove for peace. You and the other Sylvanas/Horde manchildren act like she ran out into the streets screaming it when she was responding to what people were asking/accusing of her.

Also who fucking cares that she talked about being proud that Anduin wasn't exhibiting toxic masculinity? Are you a 12 year old who got triggered and had their feelings hurt because a character is something you don't like? How do you exist in the world at all like that?

You know, i've been wondering, can you make a single post without spewing slurs left and right ?

Also, speaking of triggered....

[Necroxis]

Everyone present also comes around to seeing that the undead are great, just as Anduin does, their prejudice of fifteen years evaporated.

Anduin has no role in this whatsoever, what are you talking about. Its Alonsus Faol that changes Turalyon's mind. And it's seeing Sylvanas kill her own people that changes Genn's mind.

I guess its easy to just barf out, "ANDUIN IS POERFECT guyas blIZZARD IS BIASED!" when you pretzel logic every example of him fucking up into somehow being a positive.

Jesus christ. I remember why I was ignoring you now. I'm out.

[TickTickTick]

You mean "Blizz didnt write the Horde to really question themselves during MoP for whatever reason, and now they're rehashing the "evil hurrrde we da bad guys but not actually bad just with our own vision soo2" for whatever reason?

I'd expect them to rehash this stupid idea maybe near the WoWs life cycle when they really run out of any ideas but there are still so many KNOWN possibilities let alone the ones they could think up if they cared. Its against any logic really.

[Aucald]

The Horde isn't real. Blizzard are responsible for the Horde not learning its lesson. Mind, fuck knows what that lesson is. It's certainly not "Don't start wars". Possibly don't be an orc supremacist? The BFA lesson has none of these clarity issues, but here's the secret: They've already failed in telling it, and I'll even tell you how.

Perhaps the lesson is "unity does not and should not be the product of conflict?" If a sense of unity cannot arise absent external conflict, then perhaps other issues exist in a given culture the inhibit or prevent lasting peace. Both Garrosh and Sylvanas attempted to unite the Horde by pushing it headlong into conflict with its long-time enemy the Alliance. Garrosh failed because he was an Orcish supremacist and slowly but surely drove a wedge into the Horde that split him off from what actually gave him power (the rank and file of the horde). Sylvanas is failing because her means and methods are abhorrent, and she gives the impression that what she's doing is not to the benefit of the Horde as a whole.

You see, we're about halfway through this garbage now and the Horde has yet to turn on Sylvanas to any meaningful degree that isn't Baine and Saurfang being Alliance lackeys, which means that the rest of the Horde is fine with soldiering on provided Sylvanas is doing what she does for the benefit of the Horde. Now we know she isn't, because she's an Old God puppet. When Sylvanas uses the knaifu and goes rogue, they'll turn on her on those grounds. In doing so, the unintentional message will be that everything she did was fine by them provided she wasn't doing it against them or being a mindslave to tentacle gods. Thus they will fail to teach us a lesson for a second time and you should all strap in for Rise of Gallywix a few years from now.

I think you're discounting Baine and Saurfang out of hand, pointedly disregarding how much of the Horde they likely reflect. On the other side of the token this also attempts to imply that anything that isn't outright criticism is enthusiastic acceptance - which I think falls squarely into the fallacy of the excluded middle. We've seen ample evidence that several Horde notables question the conduct of this war: Rexxar, Valtrois, Talanji, and Zelling (also including the discounted Baine and Saurfang). I agree whatever Sylvanas is up to with Xal'atath is likely to be a tipping point that turns the majority of the Horde against her, but I disagree that signs of fraying and strain haven't been shown up until now. The very fact that the Champion themselves isn't 100% on their side (as in they've several options to disobey) highlights that Sylvanas' grasp on the seat of Warchief is already tenuous.

[Kralljin]

The same 'perfect boy' who made the critical mistake of allowing Calia Menethil to attend a highly controversial and politically charged meeting with the leader of the opposite faction, completely ruining his plan for peace between the Forsaken and Stormwind, his one and only goal in the entire book.

Considering it wasn't Anduin who blew her cover, that's moot.
The entire explanation why Calia did it was: "I had a brother, thus i was not taught in politics".

(For the reminder, Calia is 30ish in Before the Storm)

Also don't forget that he taught Genn and Turalyon that some Forsaken are still in fact humans and not just undead monsters.

The only thing Anduin accepts and realizes is that Sylvanas cannot be reasoned with but also sees that peace with the Forsaken is actually possible, as some Forsaken did choose to accept their living relatives.
Before the Storm humanizes the Forsaken in a great deal.

The same 'perfect boy' who refuses to aid the Night Elves and sees them and the Gilneans abandon the attack on Dazar'alor in favor of attacking Darkshore.

Considering that attack still works out for the Alliance makes this spat rather forgetable.

If the Horde had actually repelled the Alliance, then that might lead to actual struggle because some fingers might point at the Night elves and complain that them leading their forces into battle elsewhere costed the Alliance overall.

At worst, it led to more dead night elves if Blizzard decides to canonize the horde being victorious in Darkshore.
At best, it still worked for the Alliance and they won on both fronts.

So even in the worst possible scenario for the Alliance, Anduin can't be blamed, the fault would be on Tyrande and the night elves as they made a solo attempt at retaking Darkshore.

[Dellis0991]

This is the same kind of shit I see in comics all the time. A new writer wants to retell a story made by a previous writer, so fucks around the narrative to reach that point and put their stamp on it.

^Now we got a story with a shitty narrative. It's a mess because you see characters who are well established do and say a bunch of stuff that they normally wouldn't do.

[mysticx]

To be fair there is and has been a lot of "Garrosh did nothing wrong" (of which I am a part), but that doesn't mean we wanted another copypaste expansion

I guess Blizz took the “Garrosh did nothing wrong”-meme and recent resurgence of “muh Horde oath” as signs that the Horde needs another lesson, and just like the first time, the Alliance has to tag along for the ride...

Really, both sides are screwed over by this story retread.

[Super Dickmann]

Anduin has no role in this whatsoever, what are you talking about. Its Alonsus Faol that changes Turalyon's mind. And it's seeing Sylvanas kill her own people that changes Genn's mind.

I guess its easy to just barf out, "ANDUIN IS POERFECT guyas blIZZARD IS BIASED!" when you pretzel logic every example of him fucking up into somehow being a positive.

Jesus christ. I remember why I was ignoring you now. I'm out.

Is this the second or third time now? You'll never keep me or any of the others you bitch about on ignore else you'd have no one to get mad about and impotently wail here before your arguments evaporate. Also, Genn flat out says "You were right" as does everyone else present. The guy has no flaws, no defeats that are pinned on him and is never mistaken. This has been the case since his nascency. This isn't even his final form.

Though really, I'm disappointed with you. Here you are going on defending a blue-eyed, blonde white man who has his power as a result of heredity while demonizing a disabled woman in charge of a bunch of minorities who has her position through merit. Isn't that a bit of a faux pas?

@Aucald

We've already talked over our heavy disagreements on presentation and I doubt we'll come to agree. So to not belabour the point about the existence of something that's not shown any further, I'll say this. Whatever the opposition to Sylvanas's plans and however reluctant everyone is, let's even assume extremely reluctant. They're constantly in self-doubt and they're just putting on a mask of yelling for the Horde across their appearance in the Incursions and so forth. That has absolutely no effect on their actual conduct, which is supporting Sylvanas's war effort. They will continue to do so in patch 8.1.5, even as Baine is sent to jail for treason. Their internal musings, whatever they may be, have no impact on their conduct whatsoever. It's only Sylvanas being an Old God Puppet and her eventual use of the knife that puts them over the line. This still gets us into a situation that's more damning than the Garrosh one because it took them far less to spring into action against him and the impetus to turn on her is again the same, so whatever the case, the lesson is lost.

[Kythera]

Well, the usual suspects turned that into the usual mess. At least the MMO Champ lore forums are consistent in their toxicity.

As this thread evinces, the internal Horde struggle between the noble savage/scrappy underdog tribe and the Horde supremacist/"Death to the Living" tribe was not conclusive. So what Danuser said wasn't wrong.

I don't see this as a SoO 2.0 scenario, but rather the resolution of that whole arc including Jaina, Genn, Garrosh/Saurfang, and Sylvanas. They've been dealing with these elements for a long time, and rather than just keep half-dealing with it, I hope 8.3/9.0 completely resolves and reinvents the dynamic. Overly optimistic? Perhaps.

But they need to do something so the people who enjoy RPing as evil "Garrosh was not wrong for the slaughter of innocent civilians" or "Gilneas deserved to have the blight unleashed against it by Sylvanas" people can have their space (both in game and on these forums) and the rest of the Horde can move on.

[BaumanKing]

Well, at least hordies are learning something. It's too bad the alliance is full of slackers.

[ReD-EyeD]

Manchildren butthurt that the narrative isn't, "CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES, SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, AND TO HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN!" for the Horde anymore, probably because that's something only 11 year old boys would like.

Damn, I would absolutely love this narrative. That would be such a breath of fresh air after all this sunday morning cartoon stuff we have now.
Also, I'm 30.

[Necroxis]

Damn, I would absolutely love this narrative. That would be such a breath of fresh air after all this sunday morning cartoon stuff we have now.
Also, I'm 30.

Warcraft 1 and 2 still exist my dude.

The entire theme of the Horde since then (Including Warcraft 3) has been rejecting that idea, including when it rears its ugly head in the more current times (Like Grom in Warcraft 3 or Garrosh in WoW).