So, item levels are getting spiked for no reason. Again.

[Elias01]

Even if that was true, that's 3 GCDs instead of 4, which mulitplied by hundreds of mobs every day, is a pretty huge deal. If you think oneshotting everything is interesting, go play clicker games i guess?

No it isnt.

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What the fuck are you on about. D3 was made awesome when they listened to the players and removed RMAH.

Just quit the game already man. Wow seems to have serious side effects in your life. It's just a game...

If you didnt notice lot of players quirt game just poiting it out. You dont have to tell people to quit becouse we did. Secondly D3 is completly different type of game. It isnt MMORPG and lost of ARPG system simply wont work in this enviroment. Another fact D3 was absolute failure. It was such big failure even in eyes of devs they choose to cancel second expansion for D3 in order to redo game for D4. So saying things like briging aspects from D3 to WoW is somehow good thing is insane thinking.

[Sunderella]

oh well, they have to do something to make people run content they don like like warfronts or dungeons

[Pua]

And then instead of answering questions people ask you, you deflect and ask your own questions.

My apologies, I've just looked up your question. Most of what I've responded to has quoted me, so I mistakenly missed your first post.

I believe this is the question:

"I am not really sure exactly why you think this is so obviously problematic that you don't even have to explain your position?"

Ultimately, there are two key aspects to it.

The first is that, once again, players have no control over what they're doing when it comes to procs. The gear system is completely and utterly luck-related, with a system that's orientated toward sheer randomness that players simply cannot influence. This nonsense largely started in Legion, but there was some protection and new gear was only released with new content (dungeons and raids, or quest/WQ zones such as Argus).

The second issue is that rather than providing gear via new content, they're providing gear via the same content; this suggests that there is going to be less new content than ever before. The only expansion that had this issue up until now was Warlords of Draenor, but it didn't scale items in this manner.

There are multiple other issues, several are PvP related, but I'm honestly only a PvP messer (Fury and Elemental). I'm thus not a huge talker on that because I'd rather it was from players who were more experienced.

[Otimus]

Why is normal+mythic ok but not normal, heroic, mythic. And lfr is an utterly different beast (which i would close down myself, but I understand the need for such a mode).

Look at sports and how many leagues of rising difficulties they have? Noone there says we have Champions League and field club soccer and that`s enough. People have very fine grained differences in skill that are driven by many different factors. Perception, recognition, tactical, focus (be it special or broad), locigal thinking (and even that with a speed component, how fast can one react to a situation and produce a solution), pattern building (many people can´t do that if their life depended on it) and god knows what else.

Don´t look at which difficulties others get but look at which you get and if that is good for you. If you are a mythic raider good for you, ignore the itemlevels you jump over because the "easy" stuff is just filler for you. Those guys could say we don´t need myhtic with the same straight face as you say we don´t need heroic. And from outside the have the bigger base for such a view point because they are more then we mythic raiders. So how about 4 difficulties might be ok for the total populace of wow and each of us looks a bit less on what others get because that doesn´t change what we do or get in any way.

I'd say Normal Raid is a difficulty, at the very least, that kind of seems redundant. Unless something has changed since WoD (the last time I bothered with it), it was only like... a very small amount more difficult than LFR in MoP. (LFR from WoD then on was MASSIVELY more easy than MoP. I felt MoP LFR was just the right difficulty, and LFR has never felt like anything other than a loot pinata since, super boring, but I imagine I'm probably alone in that feeling, and most probably feel all LFR ever is that) Like, are there normal only guilds? "Easy" "Normal" "Hard" (LFR, Heroic, and Mythic) seems like it should be enough. But if I'm out of touch and there are a lot of active normal only guilds, I'd be okay with admitting I'm wrong. I seriously haven't touched any modicum of real raiding since WoD.

[Understarmor]

Welcome to World of WarCraft that has been like this for 15 years.

games been out for 15 years and it hasn't always been like this, welcome to world of idiot craft....just stop posting

[XDurionX]

oh well, they have to do something to make people run content they don like like warfronts or dungeons

The opposite is the case. They provide people with options to AVOID the stuff they don't like. Don't like warfronts? Here, have the same gear from a raid. Don't like raiding? Here, do m+. Don't like either of this? Do world content and you can change your mind and take part in all the other stuff as you wish.

While in the past it was just raid or tough luck. With the current model, everyone can choose the path he likes most. If nothing appeals to you, just unsub and move along, nobody cares.

[Understarmor]

You're new to this game i take it? Badges were a thing since BC.

he...never said anything about badges....hes talking about item level...you should probably read first before commenting

[Alteiry]

They already did this in Legion.

[XDurionX]

he...never said anything about badges....hes talking about item level...you should probably read first before commenting

Yes and badges were a currency to buy...gear with an item level sufficient to participate in [current tier raiding]? Exactly like it is now?

[Otimus]

Wow. Just... Wow. Here's the text from the post, for those who haven't read it.

- New Maximum Item Level: With great challenges come great rewards and the maximum possible item level will go up to 425.
- Battle for Darkshore Warfront: Battle for Darkshore rewards will also increase to 400 from both the outdoor boss and from Warfront quest that can be completed once per cycle. The difficulty of the Warfront will increase however, and the item level required to queue will increase to 335. These changes will go into effect after the current Warfront cycle has ended. Until that time, players will still receive Season 1 rewards.
- World Quest Emissary Rewards: World Quest Emissary weapon and armor rewards will also now scale up to 385 based on the player’s own item level. Rewards from the original Battle for Azeroth Launch World bosses will remain at item level 355 to stay on par with Uldir.
- Dungeon Rewards and Difficulty: The difficulty of Heroic and Mythic dungeons will also be increase as follows: Normal–340, Heroic–355, and Mythic– 370 (baseline).
- Mythic Keystone Dungeons and PvP: During the first week of Season 2 Mythic Keystone Dungeon rewards will be capped at Mythic 6 quality (item level 385). PvP Season 2 end-of-match rewards will be capped at 385.
- Seals of Wartorn Fate: Seals of Wartorn Fate are not being reset and this same currency can be used for Battle of Dazar’alor and Season 2 bonus rolls; the cap on how many can be held at once remains at 5.

Meh, enough is enough.

I'm not putting any more money into this because, frankly, this design team just hasn't got a clue why its systems are broken, and why so many players are resolutely unhappy with it. With a single raid tier, the item level has been well over doubled from what the expansion starts with, and rather than keeping content relevant it just gets made laughably pointless with a shallow system that players want sheer luck from in order to gear past the spots of what they're actually doing.

Welcome to Diablo 3, built by a team that has fundamentally no interest in making a game that its players are interested in.

Dungeons just jump 30 points, while WQs jump to 385.

Jesus.

The thing that really bugs me is, is that people will say this is to appease casuals, but really, things like this actually hurt casuals the most. It just continues to make almost all content not worth bothering with outside of world quests past your first couple of weeks of being 120. No one benefits from this save for maybe someone who plays, like... 2 hours a month or something. Then it's Mythic+ or Heroic+ Raiding or you ain't got shit worth doing except leveling alts. (Or quitting!)

Just bring badges back, please Something to work toward like the questlines for a legendary in MoP! Anything

Like, I don't mind ilvl increases, but man... the rewards are totally lopsided for some shit and gear becomes worthless to you in other activities way too god damned fast.

[cparle87]

Path of Exile does seasons too. They call them leagues. Once the league is over, your character and stash are moved to the default league and in the next league you start completely fresh.

If WoW adopted this model people would collectively lose their marbles, but it'd be interesting to me since I'm used to it. Maybe the game needs something like that. It needs a lot of things.

Wow, there's a game out there that actually does what I was thinking about. I've mentioned it in a couple of "levelling is obsolete/get rid of it" threads that they have to keep levelling unless they do something drastic like reset everyone's epics to baseline greens each xpac to keep secondaries under control.

[Understarmor]

HAHAHAH it has been like this since WOTLK when they started multiple difficulties per tier .. you want this gone?? have one HARD raid difficulty like BC and it will be gone.

wrong...wrath had hard modes not the same content but four different layers with subtle tweaks and called it "content" wrath/bc by far was the best model in how they did everything....you actually had to work your way through all the content so you had to see it all unless friends powerleveled you through shit and you had to EARN your gear.....i mean now they just fucking hand you shit cause these days you don't have to do anything at all if you constantly complain about how hard things are....guess snowflakes now run blizz

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We went +200 ilvl in just one raid tier. Blizzard made their ilvl/stat squish meaningless within a few months, it's shocking how they keep butchering the character progression by throwing endless gear/ilvl/difficulties into a blender.

well ion is a fucking moron, are you really surprised by this?

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That is exactly what I want. Progression felt a whole lot more meaningful in those days when every patch didn't completely trivialize all the previous effort you put into the game.

i 100% agree with this and the way the game is, is exactly why i don't play it anymore....once wotlk hit the sweet spot with a LOT of systems/features ion made it his lifes mission to take down GC's work and tear down a perfectly good game....well he succeeded and look at the game now....

loved how you had to work your way through the ranks with a new character in bc and wotlk before you could endgame raid

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It’s interesting, Blizz are making the previous raid totally irrelevant, even to newcomers or alts, gear to get into Dazar’Alor can be farmed up completely solo now, almost as if they expected a lack of Uldir-groups in Season 2 for gearing up that way...

Tinfoil hat or sad truth?

It’s also a “participation”-thing, participation in World quests and Darkshore WF would fall off a cliff (As Arathi WF participation inevitably will) if the gear rewards were irrelevant, sometimes i long for the days of badges, for all the faults of that system, by updating rewards it kept content relevant for everybody throughout the expansion without having to resort to stuff like “Dungeons will drop better gear, but be harder too”

yeah i loved the badge system, because you could still run old content and get the gear from there AND a badge...it was grindy, sure but it still kept old content relevant

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Dude...the ilvl goes up every patch. It's been that way since the start of the game. Since BC you had catchup or welfare gear to kinda get around the fact you don't want to run old raids on your alts to gear them up and shit. It's not meant to stay relevant. It's been that way forever. You're out of touch OP. Looks like all that gear you paid to get carried through doesn't matter anymore and you'll have to buy it again.

no, you're out of touch, this hasn't been this way since the start of the game, there was no catch up mechanics in vanilla and badges werent introduced in bc till midway through....moron

[Loosecannon]

I'd prefer less of a spike between raids, so that people would keep doing the older raids. I liked how there were some items in Gruul/Kara which were still good when you were doing T5/6 and so you still did those.

I also think in-expansion ilvl/power curves are too high (or were in Legion). I play a prot warrior, and that was the first expansion where I was able to solo raid bosses from the current expansion (I know other people did this earlier when specced specifically for it, but it's the first time *i* have been able to do it).

I would personally enjoy it if they just kept the M+ Scaling as it is, didn't increase base dungeon rewards etc, that way the top guys would end the expansion doing m+50 or whatever, but it would mean that you can do M+ and still gear through that avenue as a catchup mechanic. (I'm sure this is terrible for reasons I haven't thought of, and I'm sure people would point it out).

This would mean you could still gear like - Start-> World bosses/low M+/Uldir/ (emissaries/ Warfronts) -> New world bosses/BFDA/Higher M+/ (Emissaries/Warfronts) -> continue but replace the raids with whatever the current tier is.

This would mean that people still ran the earlier raids (hopefully), and the warfronts would provide a slow but steady means of catchup.

As I'm pretty casual as a player right now (read as 'I don't play a lot', not 'I am a bad player' please ), I think this system would largely leave me behind, but I feel like it would be better for the health of the game.

Blizzard clearly disagrees with me, and has the statistics and numbers to back up their own decisions from a business perspective, so meh!

[XDurionX]

yeah i loved the badge system, because you could still run old content and get the gear from there AND a badge...it was grindy, sure but it still kept old content relevant

Wants old content to be relevant
Complains about BfA keeping old content relevant

You people are hilarious.

[Skulltaker]

Okay, I'll clear this up for the people who just don't get it.

Tell me:

1. When did dungeon items get their item levels increased, rather than new dungeons with better gear?
2. When did World Quests start getting their items increased, rather than replaced via new content?
3. When did vendors get their items increased, rather than a new tier vendor prior to the system removal?
4. When did gear bonus procs start their random item level increase, rather than a specific value?

I'll let you start with those four. And, to be fair, anyone is allowed to answer them. I'll happily correct those who are wrong, just to put this "this iz fiftein yearz lolz" claim out of the thread, because it's laughably incorrect.

1. Counterquestion, would you rather go back to the system where the majority of dungeons becomes obsolete once you hit max level? The item increase started when they made max level dungeon versions.
2. Well... that would have been with the introduction of World Quests, in Legion. So, always.
3. No, instead you had vendors selling you a dozen sets of obsolete items, unless you consider transmog. Similar to dungeons, why keep something around that is largely outdated? Would you buy a new PC from the technological level of 1999? Or even 2017, for that matter?
4. Warlords was the first AddOn that introduced Warforged, wasn't it? Bevor that, MoP had buyable upgrades that took time to grind. I'm not a fan of titanforged, really. I'm with you on that one. Still, random drops are random, they just added a factor.

My apologies, I've just looked up your question. Most of what I've responded to has quoted me, so I mistakenly missed your first post.

I believe this is the question:

"I am not really sure exactly why you think this is so obviously problematic that you don't even have to explain your position?"

Ultimately, there are two key aspects to it.

The first is that, once again, players have no control over what they're doing when it comes to procs. The gear system is completely and utterly luck-related, with a system that's orientated toward sheer randomness that players simply cannot influence. This nonsense largely started in Legion, but there was some protection and new gear was only released with new content (dungeons and raids, or quest/WQ zones such as Argus).

The second issue is that rather than providing gear via new content, they're providing gear via the same content; this suggests that there is going to be less new content than ever before. The only expansion that had this issue up until now was Warlords of Draenor, but it didn't scale items in this manner.

There are multiple other issues, several are PvP related, but I'm honestly only a PvP messer (Fury and Elemental). I'm thus not a huge talker on that because I'd rather it was from players who were more experienced.

Players also have no control over what items drop for them on bosses, and never had it. While statistically unlikely, you could have killed a specific boss every week since it was introduced and never recieve a specific item that you want. The gear system has always been completly and utterly luck-related, and players never could influence it. New gear is still only released with new content. Which isn't surprising, since gear is a form of content. Not very exciting, but still.

The 'providing gear with the same content' has been around ages, since the introduction of max level versions of dungeons.

[Fistfighter]

Dungeons just jump 30 points, while WQs jump to 385.

Jesus.

Dungeon now drop 340 and WQ emmisaries drop 370. So saying the dungeons 'just' jump 30 is extremely stupid, because the WQ's jump just half of that number.


Jeez, you'v never played the game since...idk, TBC, where ilvl creeping started? New patch = gear, that's how it's been for 15years now, maybe get used to it, that's the game.

[Jimmyw]

Who says it's "bad". And if so, why?



The point of obtaining gear from content is to help you progress through that content. Gearing is not a means unto itself. So if you're looking for meaning in your ilevel then you're looking in the wrong place. The real question is what content were doing that allowed you to obtain that gear? That's where you'll find the meaning.



By that argument, the last 14 years of WoW has all been meaningless. But the game isn't meaningless because at the time you're doing it, there is always content that is meaningful in the here and now.

maybe I have outgrown this then. played since 2005 and I dont remember it being this bad before. so yeah - maybe it was this bad all along and I didnt mind - and now im just outgrown it maybe

[Elias01]

Dungeon now drop 340 and WQ emmisaries drop 370. So saying the dungeons 'just' jump 30 is extremely stupid, because the WQ's jump just half of that number.


Jeez, you'v never played the game since...idk, TBC, where ilvl creeping started? New patch = gear, that's how it's been for 15years now, maybe get used to it, that's the game.

TBC? I dont rember same items scale in itemlvl in TBC, WOTLK, Cata, MoP and WoD. You are supostu add new content with new gear and thats it. No catch up no itemlvl increases nothing. Just new content to progress in. There are other and more fun ways how to make content you have done relevenat than just bumb up numbers and reset everyones progression.

[Hiromant]

Yes it devalues effort into your toon and what new players actualy catch up helps to bring in? There arent any new players coming to wow anymore. Completly ruin progression for couple playrers what start playing late is plant stupid. You remove content from the game. You remove everything what players work towards. If everything this system only makes people quit game not actualy keep playing. Sying that system what actualy makes people quit game is good for the game is insane.

Exactly. At the end of the day, people are quitting en masse so the system is bad, period. BFA can be summed up with: "Nice thought, doesn't work".

[kamuimac]

no, you're out of touch, this hasn't been this way since the start of the game, there was no catch up mechanics in vanilla and badges werent introduced in bc till midway through....moron

technicaly you are incorrect :

first catchs up in vanilla was Dire Maul and ZG

2nd catch ups were pvp gear from bgs.

so yes catch ups were in game since Vanilla