Baine vs Sylvanas

[Kyphael]

You’d have to know literally nothing about Baine to un ironically say that

Baine is shit but he's the preferable choice in an MMO RPG game that was initially designed around "create your own adventure" with a very subtle narrative that didn't hijack the entire PVE play experience. I wouldn't take Baine over Sylvanas because he's a better character, I'd take him over her because he would never be put in a role where the game's narrative revolves around him like Sylvanas is, and the bitch might not even be the main villain.

[Dagoth Ur]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Traveling_Warrior

The dialogue is very on the nose.

Missed this too. Have to say this is the first dialogue that mentions honor in a non-nauseating way. Could've given some of those lines to Saurfang.

[Minikin]

I mean... You still got what they said, i.e. that they criticized the person they were quoting on the accuracy of their lore statements. It's the post they quoted (by schattenlied) that you missed. So if anything, you glanced over that one.

Nah it was more in reference to previous posts. I glanced over both theirs since both (over multiple threads) twist the story to feed their faction bias. It wasn't always the case but over time just you realize which posters are totally taken by the faction fiction and support the alliance completely in all it's hippocrsy or the horde completely without regard for contradictions.

[Super Dickmann]

Baine is shit but he's the preferable choice in an MMO RPG game that was initially designed around "create your own adventure" with a very subtle narrative that didn't hijack the entire PVE play experience. I wouldn't take Baine over Sylvanas because he's a better character, I'd take him over her because he would never be put in a role where the game's narrative revolves around him like Sylvanas is, and the bitch might not even be the main villain.

You do know that even if Sylvanas kicks the bucket, this won't be reversed. It'd just mean that since Baine is a non-entity when the signals are not given for him to aid his overlords, the plot would revolve around a certain teenager instead. I mean, more so than it already does.

@Dagoth Ur

I take the piss out of him being the only guy who cares and being a meme, but honestly, I actually like that he's not a named character. We badly need the on the ground opinion of the common man, preferably varied ones. I'm still annoyed that the orc talking to Nathanos in the tent isn't the orc from A Good War who's reaction to the Burning we never got.

[Minikin]

Why do you need to know this information? Planning on bullying them or something?

Telling someone, picking baine over sylvanas is foolish equates to bullying? Not to mention why would you need to hide your support for a fictional faction leader?

[Mehrunes]

ap·point
/əˈpoint/
verb
past tense: appointed; past participle: appointed

1.
assign a job or role to (someone).

She was assigned the role of Warchief (appointed) by Vol'jin.

So... It's an appointed position whenever they are chosen as a successor, which in this case happened under false pretenses.

Linking the definition of appointment isn't proof that Warchief is an appointed position. Because it doesn't look like you understood it. Nothing in how Sylvanas became Warchief indicates Vol'jin saying her name was a necessary part of the process. Vol'jin merely nominated her. She still needed to be acknowledged by the Horde and then took oath from everyone at Vol'jin's BBQ. None of that would be necessary if she was appointed by Vol'jin. Same way Vol'jin wasn't Warchief the moment Thrall "appointed him" but needed to by accepted by everyone. Next time you try to look smart by linking definitions of appointment check the difference between appointment and nomination.

Then, again, we're retroactively putting to death everyone who ever acted against Garrosh, or disobeyed direct orders from him, including Sylvanas.

And you've moved the goalposts.

More than just him, but sure, who's cherry picking now?

Since you're already having fun with the dictionary, check the phrase "like someone". And due to the above, I'll stick with "you" as the answer to your question here. Just with the addition of straw-manning now.

If you're gonna make arbitrary claims I'm not going to put effort into responding to them.

Right. I guess it's because of how "arbitrary" my counterarguments were that you just moved the goalposts on your point #2 because you couldn't respond to it otherwise, your point #1 devolved to throwing definitions around that don't actually address what you replied to and your point #3 ended in a straw-man.

So we're just casually going to forget her disobeying direct orders to not use the plague, repeatedly, and her attempt to assassinate him, which only didn't succeed because Vareesa got cold feet?

That's treason, bub.

It wasn't "repeatedly". It was once, in Gilneas. In other places Forsaken were outright given a strain of Blight with Horde's stamp of approval to use as their please. Because Gilneas was Garrosh's attempt at killing off the Forsaken. And Garrosh was no longer the Warchief of the Horde during the trial, so wat?

[Langusta]

If you are Horde and voted for Baine, the Alliance is there waiting for you

[Arrashi]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Traveling_Warrior

The dialogue is very on the nose.

Jesus christ that dialogue is so heavy handed.

[Minikin]

In a situation like this, there's nothing wrong with clicking "View Results" and just voting for whichever Baine has the least votes. Baines should be kept in near-parity to demonstrate the inherent loathsomeness of the character.

I wanted to do this. But I've waited too long lol, he's ahead in the polls now!

- - - Updated - - -

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Traveling_Warrior

The dialogue is very on the nose.

Oh wow. Lol faction neutrality might just be a possibility now, if they are placing things like this in the game.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Jesus christ that dialogue is so heavy handed.

Anime fighting technique “heavy morality strike”

[Super Dickmann]

I wanted to do this. But I've waited too long lol, he's ahead in the polls now!

Oh wow. Lol faction neutrality might just be a possibility now, if they are placing things like this in the game.

Baine is not really Baine in polls like this. You can tell from how the votes stack up vs. the absolutely feeble, half-hearted arguments in his favor. He's just a stand-in for the Anti-Sylvanas vote. It's all party line. People who lean Alliance vote near exclusively anti-Sylvanas, whereas Horde posters are split, but lean against the characters who are Alliance proxies. You can see the same on the official forums, except there it's tilted heavily pro-Sylvanas or at least anti-muh honor on the Horde side.

And yeah, the dialogue has the subtlety of a freight train.

[Schattenlied]

Linking the definition of appointment isn't proof that Warchief is an appointed position. Jesus Christ. Nothing in how Sylvanas became Warchief indicates Vol'jin saying her name was a necessary part of the process. Vol'jin merely nominated her. She still needed to be acknowledged by the Horde and took oath from everyone at Vol'jin's BBQ. None of that wouldn't be necessary if she was appointed by Vol'jin. Same way Vol'jin wasn't Warchief the moment Thrall "appointed him" but needed to by accepted by everyone. Next time you try to look smart by linking definitions of appointment check the difference between appointment and nomination.

He appointed her, the oath needing to be re-taken doesn't change that... Obviously it would need to be redone because the oath was made to the previous Warchief directly, not her.

And you've moved the goalposts.

No I haven't, breaking the oath is breaking the oath.

Since you're already having fun with the dictionary, check the phrase "like someone". And due to the above, I'll stick with "you" as the answer to your question here. Just with the addition of straw-manning now.

Uh-hu, sure.

It wasn't "repeatedly". It was one, in Gilneas. In other places Forsaken were outright given a strain of Blight with Horde's stamp of approval to use as their please.

Which they immediately set about making far more deadly than the solution that got the stamp of approval before they ever deployed it by adding a bunch of "doomweed" (whatever the heck that is, seems to have been made up just for that quest) to it: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Agony_Abounds

They were not using the strain that got approved, they took the approved strain and then modified it with the explicit purpose of making it more deadly than what was approved... They were essentially given a neutered Blight and told "you may use nothing more potent than this", and then turned around and stitched it's balls back on.

Because Gilneas was Garrosh's attempt at killing off the Forsaken.

They swore an oath to give their flesh and blood freely to the Warchief, to be the instrument of their Warchief's desire, their lives are his to throw away as he pleases just like Sylvanas is doing to so many soldiers of the Horde now. Like you so enjoy saying, where is the clause in the Blood Oath that says they are allowed to disobey orders if they think the plan is bad? Right, it's not there, as I thought.

That's what Baine is doing, far as he's concerned she's going to destroy the Horde and he's trying to save it (same goes for Sarufang), how is that so different than Sylvanas betraying her oath to safeguard her people? Why does she get a pass?

And Garrosh was no longer the Warchief of the Horde during the trial, so wat?

Yes, I had the timeline messed up on that one.

[Arrashi]

Anime fighting technique “heavy morality strike”

No shit dude, its more cringy than morality speeches all those generic anime protagonists deliver to generic final bosses.

[Dagoth Ur]

I take the piss out of him being the only guy who cares and being a meme, but honestly, I actually like that he's not a named character. We badly need the on the ground opinion of the common man, preferably varied ones.

That's true yeah. Maybe if they added more of these, the whole would be rebellion wouldn't look so out of nowhere. Regardless, I still think if they gave Saurfang dialogue on the level of his Warsong Hold one or something similar to this, he'd be much easier to digest. Him just whining and being outraged for the first half of expansion didn't really help his image even before the deal with our treasure.

I'm still annoyed that the orc talking to Nathanos in the tent isn't the orc from A Good War who's reaction to the Burning we never got.

If you mean Morka, somehow I suspect hers reaction would be a slightly toned down Saurfang's. I agree though, it'd be nice to hear more opinions on the whole thing. For some reason I'm especially intrested in Lor'themar's who's just silent throughout it all.

[mickybrighteyes]

Since when is the Warchief an appointed position? The Blood Oath is weirdly silent about it, for some reason. Instead it only mentions how the members are supposed to obey the Warchief they swore the oath to. Sylvanas took the oath. She's Warchief. Rather simple.

Thrall and Vol'jin weren't appointed. Garrosh and Sylvanas were. I would argue that when the warchief proclaims an individual as to be the one to take up the roll, that is appointing the position to them.

[Syegfryed]

Blackhand, Thrall and Garrosh aren't one Orc.

sorry i just see one bad warchief here

Even if they were, if one Sylvanas is enough to discredit the notion of even living Elves wielding the mantle of Warchief ever again, then one Blackroshrall also would be enough to discredit the Orcs. You're not exactly being consistent right now.

"elves wielding the mantle of warchief", yeah, this can't sound more stupid, anyway, no, they would not be enough to discredit the orcs since there are sucesful orc warchief unlike other races warchief.

Like i always said, its just how things should be, warchief should always be an orc title

[Martymark]

The poll represents 100% of Alliance players and 5% of Horde players voting Baine.

[Schattenlied]

Thrall and Vol'jin weren't appointed. Garrosh and Sylvanas were. I would argue that when the warchief proclaims an individual as to be the one to take up the roll, that is appointing the position to them.

"With his dying breath, he gave Thrall his black plate and warhammer, and named him Warchief of the Horde"

Thrall was appointed by Ogrim Doomhammer just before his death.

[Super Dickmann]

That's true yeah. Maybe if they added more of these, the whole would be rebellion wouldn't look so out of nowhere. Regardless, I still think if they gave Saurfang dialogue on the level of his Warsong Hold one or something similar to this, he'd be much easier to digest. Him just whining and being outraged for the first half of expansion didn't really help his image even before the deal with our treasure.

If you mean Morka, somehow I suspect hers reaction would be a slightly toned down Saurfang's. I agree though, it'd be nice to hear more opinions on the whole thing. For some reason I'm especially intrested in Lor'themar's who's just silent throughout it all.

I enjoyed Saurfang in A Good War, it's why I was pushing for him to pull a Doomhammer and take over despite my really low opinion of how he was cast in-game even before he was enlightened by Anduin. It was a genuinely nuanced portrayal and his final reaction was both true to his character and didn't aim to gut either him or Sylvanas for a cheap thrill. Their interaction was also great. It's part of what makes me really despise the Horde writing in the expansion proper. Having the representation of muh honor and muh pragmatism interact, team up and conflict with neither being a caricature was something we deserved more of than one novella. Right now, Saurfang is unsalvagable and Sylvanas is supportable only out of spite for how putrid everyone else is.

But I disagree with the idea that any amount of good writing for Saurfang could fix a rebellion without the common person's reaction being in there as well, as it'd appear too sudden. Seeing Morka cheer as it goes up in flames, then hear the screams and have a dawning realization of what it means, maybe have her praised by Sylvanas for doing the trick with the boats and feeling disturbed by the apathy of her Warchief over the civilian dead would really help the story. Maybe clashing with others not caring or slowly noting the same.

[Syegfryed]

the problem here is we are missing some good old mak'gora to know who boss around, old fashion way

I think i rather have someone throw a hat on the arena and see who put in the head first before another "appointment"