Baine vs Sylvanas

[Ashiraya]

Your complaints about Baine seemed exaggerated, but I'll admit I have not read all the books and all that so I went to Wowpedia to check up on his lore.

*No tantrum is mentioned. He prefers building a great gate to deter Alliance attack over counterattacking, which makes sense for a leader who prefers to find a peaceful resolution. Not counterattacking over Taurajo also makes a lot of sense (the entire Taurajo incident was explained from both sides in a way that does not really show the Alliance as evil - the local general being bad at his job perhaps, but he did not intend for a massacre).
*There is no mention of civilians on the page. I assume this also refers to Taurajo. See above.
*I don't see much information about dwarves. I assume you mean Bael Modan? Such an isolated tribe is likely difficult to lend much aid to. Consider that Bael Modan -is- attacked per BFA mission tables, so maybe that stance has changed.
*Ctrl+F 'blight' on his page gives only Lordaeron, so I assume that is what you mean by Tauren being blighted. Honestly, orcs and trolls and others were also blighted by Sylvanas. It shows the usual suspicious tendency of Horde characters being more forgiving when it is Sylvanas who is responsible for something (insert usual mary sue rant here, blah blah, it's not the topic of the thread). I am not sure if I count that as a point in Sylvanas' favour either way though. She was the one who blighted them to begin with.
*It is a bit odd that he has not spoken up until now, but it is clear that he was never really happy with the concept of raising unwilling people to begin with. Derek, being intended as a brainwashed assassin to target his own family, is a step up from the normal forsaken raising and thus seems like a good time to set the hoof down. The 'free will' excuse, while tenuous at best, is outright disregarded here.
*I can find nothing on his page about this, and I feel like it is misleading. If Baine had been assaulting Horde soldiers I suspect it would have generated more attention.

[Aucald]

None of those other forts had quests mentioning their advanced technology, most of all none of those were in the middle of Horde territory, on stolen land, and actively attacking the Horde.

Glad to see you agree, but how can you say its smaller then the other conflicts. Baine is the leader of all tauren tribes, a tribe being massacred and forced off their lands should be a big deal to him.

None of the other quests mention their technology - but since the forts are all the same design, with the same basic interior and compliment, it stands to reason that they're all advanced technology. Angor Fortress is also under attack by the Horde forces previously stationed at Kargath as quests take you inside the structure on various errands as a Horde player.

It's smaller because it's just smaller - it's would be like saying a territorial dispute in a single county of a single state is an issue that would be a big deal to a senator or the president. It's also not just on Baine as the conflict at Bael Modan with the Stonespire tauren started under Cairne's watch, and he didn't do much of anything about it either. The Barrens also doesn't belong to the Tauren - neither Cairne nor Baine could really move on Bael Modan without trying to lay claim to the whole of the Barrens for the Horde, which would probably the heart of a rather sticky dispute. The Horde claim on the Barrens is solely one based on the presence of their forces, but the Alliance also claimed territory in the previously unoccupied wasteland - it's status is contested, making the Stonespire claim difficult to enforce (which is likely why both Baine and Cairne before him didn't step in in any official capacity).

[Gann Stonespire]

Your complaints about Baine seemed exaggerated, but I'll admit I have not read all the books and all that so I went to Wowpedia to check up on his lore.

*No tantrum is mentioned. He prefers building a great gate to deter Alliance attack over counterattacking, which makes sense for a leader who prefers to find a peaceful resolution. Not counterattacking over Taurajo also makes a lot of sense (the entire Taurajo incident was explained from both sides in a way that does not really show the Alliance as evil - the local general being bad at his job perhaps, but he did not intend for a massacre).
*There is no mention of civilians on the page. I assume this also refers to Taurajo. See above.
*I don't see much information about dwarves. I assume you mean Bael Modan? Such an isolated tribe is likely difficult to lend much aid to. Consider that Bael Modan -is- attacked per BFA mission tables, so maybe that stance has changed.
*Ctrl+F 'blight' on his page gives only Lordaeron, so I assume that is what you mean by Tauren being blighted. Honestly, orcs and trolls and others were also blighted by Sylvanas. It shows the usual suspicious tendency of Horde characters being more forgiving when it is Sylvanas who is responsible for something (insert usual mary sue rant here, blah blah, it's not the topic of the thread). I am not sure if I count that as a point in Sylvanas' favour either way though. She was the one who blighted them to begin with.
*It is a bit odd that he has not spoken up until now, but it is clear that he was never really happy with the concept of raising unwilling people to begin with. Derek, being intended as a brainwashed assassin to target his own family, is a step up from the normal forsaken raising and thus seems like a good time to set the hoof down. The 'free will' excuse, while tenuous at best, is outright disregarded here.
*I can find nothing on his page about this.

* The Alliance was currently invading the barrens. Look up quests like Siegebreaker and A Line in the Dirt, all from the brave members of the Horde Baine cowardly exiled. Effectively he let his people be killed and exiled those defending them.
* We know civilians died when Taurajo was firebombed, see Honoring the Dead. The last words of Yonada, a civilian were even "Alliance - they've surrounded the camp! What are they doing here? Why are they attacking Taurajo? Get the children - run! RUN!" Yet attacking innocents is acceptable when the Alliance does it according to Baine.
* Baine is mentioned to have exiled all those who fought against the Alliance, including those retaliating against Bael Modan, which keep in mind was continuing to attack tauren and goblin civilians.
* In the battle of Lordaeron, Sylvanas blights a bunch of tauren in front of Baine and he doesn't say a word.
* Yet not only has Sylvanas done worse, Baine didn't care when Sylvanas enslaved Valentine and sent him to his death.
* Per the datamined info, Baine kills a bunch of Horde soldiers including tauren to free Derek.

Face it, Baine is a traitor. I get you don't like Sylvanas and I understand, but Baine would only be another evil.

None of the other quests mention their technology - but since the forts are all the same design, with the same basic interior and compliment, it stands to reason that they're all advanced technology. Angor Fortress is also under attack by the Horde forces previously stationed at Kargath as quests take you inside the structure on various errands as a Horde player.

It's smaller because it's just smaller - it's would be like saying a territorial dispute in a single county of a single state is an issue that would be a big deal to a senator or the president. It's also not just on Baine as the conflict at Bael Modan with the Stonespire tauren started under Cairne's watch, and he didn't do much of anything about it either. The Barrens also doesn't belong to the Tauren - neither Cairne nor Baine could really move on Bael Modan without trying to lay claim to the whole of the Barrens for the Horde, which would probably the heart of a rather sticky dispute. The Horde claim on the Barrens is solely one based on the presence of their forces, but the Alliance also claimed territory in the previously unoccupied wasteland - it's status is contested, making the Stonespire claim difficult to enforce (which is likely why both Baine and Cairne before him didn't step in in any official capacity).

Again those aren't in Horde territory.

It isn't smaller and Cairne literally sent you to fight the dwarves of Bael'dun invading Mulgore in the original game making it clear he didn't stand for their actions as a whole, so that is blatantly incorrect. Please don't spread misinformation.

The barrens is officially Horde territory in the lore, so it is entirely incorrect that it's unclaimed territory. Even the Dwarves journal acknowledges its a good spot because its Horde territory. They were there for a invasion.

[Schattenlied]

Sylvanas is a very sexy lore characters... that is why i like her so much.. that and there really isn't much of any choice for any more female lore on horde side now is there?

There is plenty, and being sexy is not a leadership skill, nor does it excuse her atrocities.

[Aucald]

It is what sets Baine apart from a character like Lor'themar. That and that blood elves are just more popular than tauren, but that's another point. Whereas when Lor'themar tries to flat out defect to the Alliance, a length Baine never goes to, over a much lesser offense than Baine taking issue with Garrosh's role in his dad's death, he does so because of his people and he always stands by what's the interest of his people. With Baine, he places his own personal ties and ambitions over his people. I don't actually take issue with Baine not trusting Garrosh to help him when Magatha took over and relying on Jaina. While it wasn't intentional, Garrosh not only was the guy to swing the axe that offed his dad, but his dad died challenging Garrosh, if for absolutely asinine reasons. Likewise, Ashenvale is a conflict he has no stake in and that his dad would not back either. He can take issue that he is now being affected by it, regardless of the merits of the conflict itself.

I agree that Baine prioritizes his own issues with Garrosh (and the greater Horde) over the welfare of some of his people - and that, in my eyes, is probably his most major failing as a leader. It also gather it doesn't really matter why Cairne challenged Garrosh in Baine's eyes - his anger with Garrosh (which he can pointedly barely keep in check in both "As Our Fathers Before Us" and "Tides of War") precludes the kind of airy rationality both you and I would employ. The Warchief of the Horde killed his father and glorified in his death, that's not something you can forget, and something I would imagine that would be very difficult if not impossible to look past. Even Garrosh's own regrets at Cairne's death are about his inability to know if he could've bested the old bull in a fair fight, and Baine no doubt intuits this if he doesn't know it flat out. In many ways I don't think Baine was ever fit to lead the Tauren as a client-state of the Horde - the circumstances of his father's death preclude his ability to see the Horde as a friend to him and likely to his people. It's a similar case to Jaina being made the head of the Six fresh off the traumatic loss of her city and people to the mana bomb at Theramore.

It's at this point though that my sympathy for him ends. Baine is so reprehensible because for all intents and purposes, his development ends there - he takes nothing else that follows into account. He remembers the debt he owes Jaina for helping him retake Thunder Bluff, while completely ignoring that whatever the reason, the Alliance are attacking his land and killing his people, forcing him to build a gate to ward the Alliance off. All the while Theramore is at the forefront of those attacking him. Over in Stonetalon, the Alliance support the woman who killed his father and want to use her as a proxy against him. What does he do? He exiles his own people and tips Jaina off over the Horde attack coming for her, risking further losses for his own should she reinforce, which she does. He cuts no slack to his own race and Garrosh, but he does everything in his power to aid an aggressor against the people he's supposed to be protecting and representing. Same deal with the quillboar - he takes issue that his dad couldn't make peace with them, so he goes out of his way to help them without considering why it didn't work. Switch over to Cataclysm and for all that he's given them, they've offed his people and actually advanced even further into their land. Does Baine learn anything from this? Nah.

The Alliance are attacking the Barrens and the Tauren settlements there because of the conflict Garrosh has engendered (again, from Baine's perspective). As he had no wish to antagonize the Alliance, especially the forces of Jaina to whom he feels a debt, he constructs a wall at the gates of Tauren land and exhorts his people to return to the safety of Mulgore and be away from the conflict. Anything beyond this gate would and is considered a party to the conflict as Baine puts it to citizens of Taurajo - you opted to remain and gave succor to Garrosh's forces, and so made yourself a legitimate target in the conflict. As for the Quillboar issue - I believe "As Our Fathers Before Us" is meant to end the hostilities between the Tauren and the Brambleblade in Mulgore. The quests in Cata seem to occur before these events happen, with the Brambleblade being held in check by starter PC actions until the events concerning Garrosh and Baine occur in the short story (which is why it is heralded as such a victory and the previously antagonistic Tauren under Greyhoof Farwanderer return to the fold). None of the Mulgore quests refer to these events in any fashion (which would be a pretty profound oversight), and the NPC's declare they are at war with the Brambleblade, a war that ends at the close of the short story.

Baine comes across as someone principally concerned with abstractions and his personal relationships, at the expense of the actual people he's meant to take care of and the faction he's tied with. The narrative unintentionally reinforces this at every turn. After the above, in BFA he doesn't take issue with the Burning of Teldrassil or with the raising of his own dead, what he takes issue with is Sylvanas leaving Saurfang, ignoring Saurfang's own mindset, as Saurfang is someone he's friends with. This isn't out of the blue. When the invasion first starts, Saurfang can tell Baine knows what's up, but because Saurfang is the one who's the face of it, he lets it slide. Even his commitment to peace is secondary to his personal quibbles. The way he essentially dismisses the lives of the Horde soldiers he kills on the basis of a loyalty to their Warchief, while lecturing about how callous the treatment of Derek is brings this further to the fore, but so is that he does this quietly and covertly while leaving his people leaderless, in an action that does not undermine Sylvanas in any relevant way but does help out his buddy Jaina. Disregarding all the political stuff and how unpalatable the broader consequence of his story is, Baine is a very small, very weak, very selfish person who repeatedly acts out of petty whims without regard for the result or a care for what his post entails. For someone who the narrative treats as a hero who should be emulated, that's completely intolerable.

He does, I agree. Baine seems like he hasn't fully integrated into the leadership position, and he allows personal slights and histories to factor into judgments that they should be kept at arm's length from. We actually don't know Baine's position on Teldrassil in any positive fashion - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and Baine's position on Sylvanas makes it more than likely he wouldn't approve. We also don't know how close Baine and Saurfang are, they seem amiable enough at Garrosh's trial and at the banquet following Legion, but they also don't seem like fast friends or confidants, either. I thought it more likely that Baine upbraiding Sylvanas for "leaving" Saurfang was more about him scoring points against the Warchief, and not something directly solicitous of Saurfang's immediate state (which dovetails neatly with Baine's penchant to value personal leverage over ties to the Horde). Baine also understands that Sylvanas has a pretty tight proverbial leash on him due to the events of "Before the Storm" - she is watching for any overt signs of disloyalty she can charge him with, so Baine needs to be careful to keep his charges on the up and up or else he'll play into the Banshee Queen's hands. The game of political brinksmanship between Sylvanas and Baine has to be one of very public and specific condemnations - Sylvanas needs the Tauren loyal to the Horde in the time of war, and Baine likely realizes his own position could be made tenuous under the right circumstances (e.g. Sylvanas revealing lingering Alliance sympathy in a time of war).

I don't see Baine in the heroic mold - and I'm not sure if the narrative actually treats him as such or if that's an inference made due to the long and still quite powerful legacy of Cairne. As leaders Cairne and Baine are very different, and Baine does not play the Game as well or as directly as his father did.

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Again those aren't in Horde territory.

It isn't smaller and Cairne literally sent you to fight the dwarves of Bael'dun invading Mulgore in the original game making it clear he didn't stand for their actions as a whole, so that is blatantly incorrect. Please don't spread misinformation.

The barrens is officially Horde territory in the lore, so it is entirely incorrect that it's unclaimed territory. Even the Dwarves journal acknowledges its a good spot because its Horde territory. They were there for a invasion.

They're the same fortification along the same design, the territory isn't important to that notion.

The Stonespire holding is small, and Bael Modan itself isn't a massive installation - it's a fort, about the size of a bunker. Cairne also didn't send you to fight the Dwarves at Bael Modan in Classic - Gann Stonespire does as he wonders back and forth along the Gold Road. Unless you have a quest or canon source that connects Baine or Cairne to the events in Bael Modan I think you're simply mistaken here.

The Barrens is contested in Lore - with the Horde and the Alliance both having territory in the zone. The Horde have more holdings, and an unofficial control over the land, but it most certainly not Horde territory in the same fashion Durotar or Mulgore is. Khazgorm also makes no mention of it being a good spot because it is in Horde territory or any plans on invasion - his journal is actually pretty brief:

The original survey crew sent by the Explorers' League was indeed correct in their findings. The ground here holds artifacts of unlimited value to our people. No doubt we will find many answers in our quest for knowledge beneath the sand and rock of Bael Modan.

The geology of the region dictates we use extreme measures however. Many of the sand deposits have solidified under the harsh conditions and varying climate.

The solution is quite simple however. Using wood pulp as an absorbent, we can combine traces of nitroglycerin with sodium nitrate to develop a strong blasting charge, capable of breaking through even the most dense masses.

The work will be noisy and disruptive but our search is of far greater importance than the comfort of the local inhabitants. In fact, we've already had to drive a band of bull-men out of the area who were proving to be a nuisance.

The fact that we are dealing with various rogue elements out here leads me to believe we will need support from the King's Army. Not only will the excavation require military support, it would seem to my novice eye that the location of Bael Modan might be of strategic value to the Alliance considering the volatility of world politics in their current state.

Alas, I have digressed. There is much work to be done beneath the rock. I have spent too much time writing and not enough digging...

He is disdainful of the Tauren and thinks Bael Modan might be of strategic value to the Alliance if things in the area go pear-shaped - but nothing about an invasion, and nothing about a desire to pointedly encroach on Horde land for military purposes. They're there because of their obsession with the Titans and Titanic relics, nothing more.

[Minikin]

So. I hit nail on head then? Or whats your reason?

have no idea what you are on about broski.

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Careful not to inform the current writers of that questline, else they'll just whitewash the Alliance and make it so the Horde were the aggressors in it from the start.

i hope not. i saw it recommended a while back on reddit or something, so when i leveled my shaman i made sure to do southern barrens and it was pretty damn awesome. gives the whole faction thing a whole new perspective.

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Baine is not really Baine in polls like this. You can tell from how the votes stack up vs. the absolutely feeble, half-hearted arguments in his favor. He's just a stand-in for the Anti-Sylvanas vote. It's all party line. People who lean Alliance vote near exclusively anti-Sylvanas, whereas Horde posters are split, but lean against the characters who are Alliance proxies. You can see the same on the official forums, except there it's tilted heavily pro-Sylvanas or at least anti-muh honor on the Horde side.

And yeah, the dialogue has the subtlety of a freight train.

its funny because i play both sides, yet my main is on alliance. and even i know that picking baine over sylvanas means oblivion for the horde. yea sure there will be peace. but it will be peace constantly wondering that if the alliance ever strikes will the horde even be able to respond ever again. sylvanas might be an absolute lunatic but at least her plans hurt the alliance more than the horde lol.

who knows. maybe bfa ends and we find out, baine, not jaina was the dreadlord lol and he had been puppeteering this for ages when the real baine was actually killed on the broken shore.

[Gann Stonespire]

They're the same fortification along the same design, the territory isn't important to that notion.

The Stonespire holding is small, and Bael Modan itself isn't a massive installation - it's a fort, about the size of a bunker. Cairne also didn't send you to fight the Dwarves at Bael Modan in Classic - Gann Stonespire does as he wonders back and forth along the Gold Road. Unless you have a quest or canon source that connects Baine or Cairne to the events in Bael Modan I think you're simply mistaken here.

The territory is larger then Taurajo and Bael modan is actually quite large.

Bael Modan sent their forces into Mulgore and a young Baine, then acting as head of Bloodhoof village, sent the Horde player to displace and said he'd never stand for dwarven harassment of the natives. Too bad he didn't stay like that.

This was in classic quests.

The Barrens is contested in Lore - with the Horde and the Alliance both having territory in the zone. The Horde have more holdings, and an unofficial control over the land, but it most certainly not Horde territory in the same fashion Durotar or Mulgore is. Khazgorm also makes no mention of it being a good spot because it is in Horde territory or any plans on invasion - his journal is actually pretty brief:

Completely false, the barrens is explicitly Horde territory.

The dwarven journal says its a good spot given its strategic value, in other words that the fortress is in Horde territory.

[Aucald]

The territory is larger then Taurajo and Bael modan is actually quite large.

Bael Modan sent their forces into Mulgore and a young Baine, then acting as head of Bloodhoof village, sent the Horde player to displace and said he'd never stand for dwarven harassment of the natives. Too bad he didn't stay like that.

This was in classic quests.

If you're referring to the quest Dwarven Digging, those Dwarves don't have any canon connection to Bael Modan nor is it mentioned in the quests. They're simply a handful of Explorer's League Dwarves on an unauthorized dig in Mulgore and are dealt with in summary fashion by Baine. They're not harassing the natives, either - but their digging is disturbing the wildlife, which is why he is has the Horde PC break their tools.

Completely false, the barrens is explicitly Horde territory.

The dwarven journal says its a good spot given its strategic value, in other words that the fortress is in Horde territory.

If it were explicitly Horde territory, it wouldn't be labeled as contested and it wouldn't have Alliance fortifications in it. It's majority Horde territory, but it still has a significant Alliance presence in the form of Northwatch.

The journal says it could be a strategic value, but again that's not why they're there. An "invasion" implies some form of plan or goal to further take territory - they're there to dig for Titan relics and lore, the possible strategic value is quite obviously a secondary concern to Khazgorm.

[Gann Stonespire]

If you're referring to the quest Dwarven Digging, those Dwarves don't have any canon connection to Bael Modan nor is it mentioned in the quests. They're simply a handful of Explorer's League Dwarves on an unauthorized dig in Mulgore and are dealt with in summary fashion by Baine. They're not harassing the natives, either - but their digging is disturbing the wildlife, which is why he is has the Horde PC break their tools.

Those dwarves are explicitly labeled Bael'dun. Only them and the Dwarves of Bael modan and the Bael'dun fortress have that designation. They're the same exact same people that massacred the Stonespire and used terror attacks on goblin civilians in Cataclysm.

That Baine, then authority of Bloodhoof village opposed them, shows back then he was fighting against Bael modan. Note he has you retrieve the tools by killing the dwarves.

If it were explicitly Horde territory, it wouldn't be labeled as contested and it wouldn't have Alliance fortifications in it. It's majority Horde territory, but it still has a significant Alliance presence in the form of Northwatch.

Its explicitly labeled Horde, not contested, in classic actually. Please make sure to check before making statements like that.

[mickybrighteyes]

If it were explicitly Horde territory, it wouldn't be labeled as contested and it wouldn't have Alliance fortifications in it. It's majority Horde territory, but it still has a significant Alliance presence in the form of Northwatch.

>> northwatch has been in the barrens since the barrens was whole and all horde territory. I think this is an area where game mechanics and lore are going to blur.

The changing of labels happening when they split the region and made southern barrens an area for 20+ when all the contested areas started around that range.

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Its explicitly labeled Horde, not contested, in classic actually. Please make sure to check before making statements like that.

and now it's explicitely labeled contested post cataclysm in the storyline

[Dartz1979]

There is plenty, and being sexy is not a leadership skill, nor does it excuse her atrocities.

I suppose so but having some fan service is always nice in all games.

[Grazrug]

I shouldn't have made this poll anonymous. Would be fun to see how many new created accounts are voting for Baine.

[Aucald]

Those dwarves are explicitly labeled Bael'dun. Only them and the Dwarves of Bael modan and the Bael'dun fortress have that designation. They're the same exact same people that massacred the Stonespire and used terror attacks on goblin civilians in Cataclysm.

That Baine, then authority of Bloodhoof village opposed them, shows back then he was fighting against Bael modan. Note he has you retrieve the tools by killing the dwarves.

Except they're not - even if they did set out from Bael Modan, which is probably likely, they've got they're own digsite and their own problem with the local Tauren. They don't have any of Bael Modan's armed support - they just other archaeologists, making a mess and disturbing the local wildlife. Bloodhoof Village sends an untested Tauren adventurer up to deal with them (as opposed to a platoon of Thunder Bluff Warbraves) because they're not a big deal. Calling a handful of Dwarven prospectors an "invasion" seems like it's gilding the lily quite substantially.

Its explicitly labeled Horde, not contested, in classic actually. Please make sure to check before making statements like that.

And the first sentence of the article you posted explicitly says: "The Barrens is a large zone in central Kalimdor controlled mostly by the Horde." It's contested, and it has an Alliance presence. It is majority Horde, as I said before, but the entire zone's status isn't decided. With Cataclysm the area, now two zones, is even more contested since the Alliance has a presence there beyond just Northwatch. Claiming some form of squatter's rights opens up even more questions, as the land was originally settled by the Kaldorei (as is the case with most of Kalimdor), who could probably claim it if they wished to make an issue of it.

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>> northwatch has been in the barrens since the barrens was whole and all horde territory. I think this is an area where game mechanics and lore are going to blur.

The changing of labels happening when they split the region and made southern barrens an area for 20+ when all the contested areas started around that range.

I don't think the label of "contested" is purely a game term - it appears only in zones where both factions have some form of presence in the form of a city, village, fort, or freehold. Durotar has no Alliance presence and no recognized settlements, just as Elwynn Forest has no permanent Horde presence - both of these zones can be said to belong solely to one specific faction. But where the Horde and Alliance meet they inevitably fall into conflict, and that is what makes a given region contested.

As of Cata it appears the Northern Barrens are no longer considered contested (at least for pre-85 characters), whereas the Southern Barrens are more contested than ever. Taking both zones as the actual original Barrens region I would say that the Barrens, as the actual in-game location, are contested.

[Grazrug]

Except they're not - even if they did set out from Bael Modan, which is probably likely, they've got they're own digsite and their own problem with the local Tauren. They don't have any of Bael Modan's armed support - they just other archaeologists, making a mess and disturbing the local wildlife. Bloodhoof Village sends an untested Tauren adventurer up to deal with them (as opposed to a platoon of Thunder Bluff Warbraves) because they're not a big deal. Calling a handful of Dwarven prospectors an "invasion" seems like it's gilding the lily quite substantially.



And the first sentence of the article you posted explicitly says: "The Barrens is a large zone in central Kalimdor controlled mostly by the Horde." It's contested, and it has an Alliance presence. It is majority Horde, as I said before, but the entire zone's status isn't decided. With Cataclysm the area, now two zones, is even more contested since the Alliance has a presence there beyond just Northwatch. Claiming some form of squatter's rights opens up even more questions, as the land was originally settled by the Kaldorei (as is the case with most of Kalimdor), who could probably claim it if they wished to make an issue of it.

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I don't think the label of "contested" is purely a game term - it appears only in zones where both factions have some form of presence in the form of a city, village, fort, or freehold. Durotar has no Alliance presence and no recognized settlements, just as Elwynn Forest has no permanent Horde presence - both of these zones can be said to belong solely to one specific faction. But where the Horde and Alliance meet they inevitably fall into conflict, and that is what makes a given region contested.

As of Cata it appears the Northern Barrens are no longer considered contested (at least for pre-85 characters), whereas the Southern Barrens are more contested than ever. Taking both zones as the actual original Barrens region I would say that the Barrens, as the actual in-game location, are contested.

The latest alliance presence became possible due to agressive invasion. ALL of the Barrens was origionally Tauren lands and even those Bael Modan are there only becaue Cairne allowed them to. They lost their status when they decided to bomb Taurajo into ashes. They deserve to die equally until they leave the Barrens.

[steelballfc]

If you are Horde and voted for Baine, the Alliance is there waiting for you

*sharing cookie*

[Jekyll]

I'm a fan of Sylvanas but I'm not a fan of the path she is steering for the Horde.

[Aucald]

The latest alliance presence became possible due to agressive invasion. ALL of the Barrens was origionally Tauren lands and even those Bael Modan are there only becaue Cairne allowed them to. They lost their status when they decided to bomb Taurajo into ashes. They deserve to die equally until they leave the Barrens.

No land was originally Tauren land, as the Tauren were an itinerant people moving from place to place, on the run from the Centaur - Thunder Bluff is their first permanent settlement in hundreds of years. Before that, their own lore says they dwelled in or at least frequented a land they called "Mashan'she," which we now know is the region called Desolace. They found the Elemental princess Theradras, thinking it was their legendary Earthmother, and were driven from the land by the Centaur resulting from the union of Theradras and the Keeper Zaetar.

Mulgore was settled by the Tauren and is their land now - and while they have settlements and camps in the Barrens, they dwell there with several other races such as the Orcs, the Goblins, and the Humans in Northwatch.

[mickybrighteyes]

I don't think the label of "contested" is purely a game term - it appears only in zones where both factions have some form of presence in the form of a city, village, fort, or freehold. Durotar has no Alliance presence and no recognized settlements, just as Elwynn Forest has no permanent Horde presence - both of these zones can be said to belong solely to one specific faction. But where the Horde and Alliance meet they inevitably fall into conflict, and that is what makes a given region contested.

As of Cata it appears the Northern Barrens are no longer considered contested (at least for pre-85 characters), whereas the Southern Barrens are more contested than ever. Taking both zones as the actual original Barrens region I would say that the Barrens, as the actual in-game location, are contested.

Durotar DOES have alliance presence, which was escalated in cataclysm with an influx of sailors building on the camp that is used as a quest objective for new troll/orc characters and the ruined keep with some remnant forces hanging out on the cost.

ALL the barrens was considered horde owned (and flagged alliance uppon entering for XR raids) even when northwatch existed in there with it's alliance npc's. You point out the link says "mostly controlled" yet the side bar for affiliation states "horde" only. If it was contested it would state as such on that page: Stonetalon as an example note it states a pvp status for that zone and does not for the barrens, as the barrens back in teh day was not actually a pvp flagged region for horde.

[steelballfc]

For the moment, Sylvanas.

Yes, she's betrayed everything the Horde stood for, but she's doing something. Baine needs to grow a spine and stand up to the warchief.

I realize some of that might be coming, but I'm working off what is in game right now.

All I know from datamined dialogue is that Zelling stands up to her, and good for him. He's learned the meaning of being Forsaken remarkably quick, and his family would be proud of him.

*sharing more cookies*

[Super Dickmann]

The Alliance are attacking the Barrens and the Tauren settlements there because of the conflict Garrosh has engendered (again, from Baine's perspective). As he had no wish to antagonize the Alliance, especially the forces of Jaina to whom he feels a debt, he constructs a wall at the gates of Tauren land and exhorts his people to return to the safety of Mulgore and be away from the conflict. Anything beyond this gate would and is considered a party to the conflict as Baine puts it to citizens of Taurajo - you opted to remain and gave succor to Garrosh's forces, and so made yourself a legitimate target in the conflict. As for the Quillboar issue - I believe "As Our Fathers Before Us" is meant to end the hostilities between the Tauren and the Brambleblade in Mulgore. The quests in Cata seem to occur before these events happen, with the Brambleblade being held in check by starter PC actions until the events concerning Garrosh and Baine occur in the short story (which is why it is heralded as such a victory and the previously antagonistic Tauren under Greyhoof Farwanderer return to the fold). None of the Mulgore quests refer to these events in any fashion (which would be a pretty profound oversight), and the NPC's declare they are at war with the Brambleblade, a war that ends at the close of the short story.

I've cut out your first paragraph, because while I agree with the points you make regarding his mental state, they along with a point in this one is what I'm talking about as regards Baine. Baine is neither an inconsistent nor an unmotivated character, but having explanations for your actions doesn't make them justified. As leader of the tauren, Baine is responsible for protecting them and their interests from outside aggression. Whatever his issues with the ongoing war, the tauren are involved and they are targets. Telling his own people, after they get firebombed and the remainder of them get offed by quillboar while trying to escape, that they are a legitimate military target and they can suck it up and should stop hurting their attackers is already disqualifying. Doing not just that, but essentially writing off anyone who defends themselves as not part of his society and exiling them while he hides behind a wall he's had to build to defend from the Alliance and gives tips to their attacker for how to protect herself from a reprisal that is at least partly done by other tauren, is around the point where he goes from passively permitting those under his care to be killed because he's pissed that he can't advance the peace he wanted with his friends, to actively supporting the enemies of his people over them. He is essentially declaring that attacking his people is a moral good or at least no big deal, but harming the people who attack the tauren is wrong and must be stopped at all costs. Whatever his treason to the Horde, his treason to his race is far more damning and is why he's completely irredeemable.

As for the Quillboar thing, as far as I can understand, Baine successfully bought off one tribe by giving them water, but this had no impact on the other tribes, such as the ones that off the survivors of Taurajo or expand their lands. Given that we both agree that he'd basically written the Barrens and its inhabitants off at that point, you can argue that he wasn't aiming to solve the problem with all quillboar, just these in particular, but that doesn't exactly imbue him with any higher moral virtue.

He does, I agree. Baine seems like he hasn't fully integrated into the leadership position, and he allows personal slights and histories to factor into judgments that they should be kept at arm's length from. We actually don't know Baine's position on Teldrassil in any positive fashion - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and Baine's position on Sylvanas makes it more than likely he wouldn't approve. We also don't know how close Baine and Saurfang are, they seem amiable enough at Garrosh's trial and at the banquet following Legion, but they also don't seem like fast friends or confidants, either. I thought it more likely that Baine upbraiding Sylvanas for "leaving" Saurfang was more about him scoring points against the Warchief, and not something directly solicitous of Saurfang's immediate state (which dovetails neatly with Baine's penchant to value personal leverage over ties to the Horde). Baine also understands that Sylvanas has a pretty tight proverbial leash on him due to the events of "Before the Storm" - she is watching for any overt signs of disloyalty she can charge him with, so Baine needs to be careful to keep his charges on the up and up or else he'll play into the Banshee Queen's hands. The game of political brinksmanship between Sylvanas and Baine has to be one of very public and specific condemnations - Sylvanas needs the Tauren loyal to the Horde in the time of war, and Baine likely realizes his own position could be made tenuous under the right circumstances (e.g. Sylvanas revealing lingering Alliance sympathy in a time of war).

We've gone over the Teldrassil stuff enough that I don't think we'll get anywhere this time, but there's a point to be made here anyway. Going by the most charitable interpretation, the reason Baine limits himself to things like Saurfang's fate at the Battle for Lordaeron over far more important things like his braves getting raised from the dead or Teldrassil, which he should be upset by, is because he doesn't want to put his people at undue risk and without his protection. Now I disagree with that entirely, because Baine has repeatedly shown greater regard for his own issues and political beliefs over the well being of his people, but well enough. Such an interpretation would get us to believe that when he does take a stand, it'd be for something essential that either really threatens his people or the Horde and that can stop Sylvanas. But that isn't the case. What he does take action on is the brother of a friend of his being abused. He values his life above those of the Deathguard or whatever that he kills in order to free him and when called out, he rambles at Sylvanas about how the Horde will find out what she is, then gets carted to prison. At no point in this entire chain of events do his people ever come into the equation. If he were worried how they'd be treated in his absence, then firstly he really shouldn't have, since unlike her questionable relationship with the Forsaken post-BTS Sylvanas doesn't bother with the internal affairs of the other races at all provided they fight, but secondly, if she did intend to do this, he'd just handicapped any chance to have an influence on this and put them at Sylvanas's mercy so he can defend someone he's never met instead. Time and again, Baine chooses his personal friends and his ideological quibbles over those he's meant to care for and with his action or inaction puts his race last. I disagree regarding what he's intended to be - he's meant to be a hero, it's just that any real assessment of him shows him in some regards to be the moral inferior of people like Garrosh and Sylvanas.