[Horde Perspective Only] Do you like Baine as a character?

[Kythera]

Not even the absurd read on the story they've written Blizzard are trying to push where Baine is glorified and nobody mentions he killed Horde troops thinks what he did benefitted his people.

I don't disagree with you. As I said, his impulsive actions were misguided from the perspective of his own and his people's well-being. He's a flawed character. The fact that they WROTE those reactions from Lor'themar et al means that Blizzard is deliberately crafting that as part of his narrative arc.

This thread is like parsing Varian Wrynn's character before Wolfheart. He was impulsive and reckless, i.e. flawed. As the narrative progressed, he grew from that into a more strategic warrior.

At this point in the overall story, Baine is at a low point in his own narrative arc. Come back and talk to me in an expansion or two (or less if Sylvy sends him off to the glue factory) and we'll see if they've progressed anything.

[Varodoc]

I miss Warcraft 1 and 2. You could be proud of the evil Horde then.

Yes, the good old days. Before Metzen decided to retcon everything and turn the orcs into poor, misunderstood noble savages.

The greenskin will never work as good guys, at least Warlords of Draenor proves that they don't need Kil'jaeden to be genocidal maniacs.

[Faerillis]

I mean, he hasn't had much characterization at all I can't really say.

I can say that all the people calling him spineless and cowardly and hate the idea of him as Warchief because he would replace Sylvanas are... special. Anyone still supporting Sylvanas (excepting those supporting her as villain that they like despite being a villain, which is perfectly fine) is not someone I would ever want to have/influence/encourage anything in real world politics.

[Super Dickmann]

At this point in the overall story, Baine is at a low point in his own narrative arc. Come back and talk to me in an expansion or two (or less if Sylvy sends him off to the glue factory) and we'll see if they've progressed anything.

I'd buy that line of argument if this were new behaviour of Baine. He's been a racial leader for ten years and he has yet to take even one decision that puts his race first. Before this stunt, which I'd argue is actually among his lesser offenses purely as a tauren leader, his main memorable moments included banishing his own people for self-defense and warning Theramore, the city that attacked said people, that the Horde would be attacking, allowing them to better prepare and thus risk more tauren lives.

[Kythera]

I'd buy that line of argument if this were new behaviour of Baine. He's been a racial leader for ten years and he has yet to take even one decision that puts his race first. Before this stunt, which I'd argue is actually among his lesser offenses purely as a tauren leader, his main memorable moments included banishing his own people for self-defense and warning Theramore, the city that attacked said people, that the Horde would be attacking, allowing them to better prepare and thus risk more tauren lives.

Yeah, almost 10 years. There have been longer arcs in Warcraft's history (see Turalyon & Void Lady Windrunner (a female void lord would be a void lady, right?)).

We'll have to agree to disagree here, but I'd advocate for your patience. I think Baine is being set up to pay at least a little bit for his rash choices. Sylvanas saw this one coming a mile away.

[Somarlane]

Baine is like the most unlikeable character you are supposed to like.

The most succinct, accurate answer I've ever read.

[GreenJesus]

Or he didn't want to drag others down with him, and decided action was needed immediately.

Sylvanas open to discussion though? In what world are you living, Saurfang tried to talk to her about blighting the corpses and she just yelled at him.
Baine tried to voice his opinion when she left Saurfang to fend the Alliance off, and she threatened him basically.

Saurfang chose to stay behind. She didn't "leave him behind". He wanted to suicide by cop.

[Gann Stonespire]

Never said the people outside the Great Gate were innocents. They were combatants in a warzone. But it is far from clear that the Tauren we speak of acted under official orders from their people's sovereign. Furthermore, there are countless examples throughout history (including a few in recent memory) where a provoked people chose not to respond with further violence. There is a difference between passive defense and active pursuit.

Those Alliance soldiers were literally trying to break down the Gates of Mulgore and attacking tauren in the area.

No leader in real life history have ever punished their army for defending against people currently attacking them and trying to break into their capital city.



Triggered the RP, I see. My main is Horde since BC (though he's an elf so that doesn't count to some on here). I ranked PvP in Vanilla as an undead rogue. Sorry I have a different perspective on the Horde than your RP-induced ragefest.[/QUOTE]

[Jester Joe]

Saurfang chose to stay behind. She didn't "leave him behind". He wanted to suicide by cop.

Yes, you're right.
But she still showed she had no intention of discussing it with Baine who had no idea what was going on at that point.
So claiming "just talk to her" seems silly when everyone who's tried to just gets dismissed.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, almost 10 years. There have been longer arcs in Warcraft's history (see Turalyon & Void Lady Windrunner (a female void lord would be a void lady, right?)).

We'll have to agree to disagree here, but I'd advocate for your patience. I think Baine is being set up to pay at least a little bit for his rash choices. Sylvanas saw this one coming a mile away.

I said this in another Baine thread, but even fi the dialogue was changed so that Sylvanas called out Baine on his 10 years worth of treachery, it's all pointless, not just because we're told she's pure evil and can do no right, but because Baine himself won't learn anything from it. It'll be framed as a villainous monologue rather than as someone's weaknesses being called out.

In turn, Baine's actions have often had consequences, he just doesn't react to them. See him giving water to the quillboar only for them to kill the survivors of Taurajo, tipping off Jaina and so on. For Baine to truly improve, he doesn't just need to be told he's shit, he needs to actually assist his people and be shown to care, he needs to help the rest of the Horde in some way and he needs to at least show he's hypothetically able to fight the Alliance. Not because he wants to, sure, but if we're stuck with this sadsack, he needs to show he's willing to defend his people before he's willing to bend over backwards for an abstract concept. I don't believe he's capable of even these minimal standards, which is why he belongs behind the barn.

As for Turalyon, despite the Void Elf LARPer's best efforts, I do think Alleria can be used for something interesting further down the line. But both of those were actually absent, rather than present and fucking up, for twenty years. Turalyon himself got neutered, but that's par for the course for an Alliance character, since allowing them flaws is absolutely haram. God forbid that the guy who's religious awakening was that orcs were not from this world and thus killing them was a moral good since they were inhuman beasts be involved in the faction war.

[steelballfc]

Yes, the good old days. Before Metzen decided to retcon everything and turn the orcs into poor, misunderstood noble savages.

The greenskin will never work as good guys, at least Warlords of Draenor proves that they don't need Kil'jaeden to be genocidal maniacs.

as expected from Alleria Windrunner

[Varodoc]

as expected from Alleria Windrunner

As expected from someone who understands that orcs don't work as good guys in a high fantasy universe.

[Nelaphim-EX]

The issue with Baine is that he is intended to be a sympathetic character, who wants to do 'right', but he has almost no personality and very little screen time... so when he does get anything, he seems like he is crying and just there as a token.

[steelballfc]

As expected from someone who understands that orcs don't work as good guys in a high fantasy universe.

they work with good writers, there is a difference between a race that because they lived in hostile world, they become hostile and angered by enlarge, or being bad because you said so.
you can make the orc's/trolls/forsaken fight the good fight with good writing.

[Alex86el]

if it was real life, of course.
no one in their right mind would side with orcs and forsaken. (and we'd be ruled by goblins)
but its a game. so no, he is boring and spineless for the most part. just like anduin.

[steelballfc]

Yes, you're right.
But she still showed she had no intention of discussing it with Baine who had no idea what was going on at that point.
So claiming "just talk to her" seems silly when everyone who's tried to just gets dismissed.

there is no time for Discussion
this is not a dinner table this is a Battle

- - - Updated - - -

he is boring and spineless for the most part. just like anduin.

*sharing a cookie*

[Gann Stonespire]

As expected from someone who understands that orcs don't work as good guys in a high fantasy universe.

And look, this Horde hating poster is one of the people who voted they liked Baine in this poll for Horde players.

[Nemisiscw]

I find it funny how so many of these responses from Horde players highlight why Baine has finally snapped. He is one of the best racial leaders in the game but he has had to put up with you people for so long now he just can't take it anymore.

[steelballfc]

And look, this Horde hating poster is one of the people who voted they liked Baine in this poll for Horde players.

the irony is epic

[Gann Stonespire]

I find it funny how so many of these responses from Horde players highlight why Baine has finally snapped. He is one of the best racial leaders in the game but he has had to put up with you people for so long now he just can't take it anymore.

Another Alliance poster insisting a racial leader who sets up his own soldiers to be killed and exiles the heroes who protected his capital from invasion is a great leader, LOL.