Mythic raiding is too time-consuming. Full stop.

[HuxNeva]

AP grinding is fucking stupid and the asshole that thought it was a good idea should be fired.

I raided semi-hardcore from WotLK to the start of Legion. There were some ups and downs. But more often than not you had to raid to get the best gear, you didn't have to worry about RNGesus and titanforging, and you basically had to do some consumable stuff outside of raid, and there was an end game with everything. Sometimes you had dailies (daily quests for tokens or daily dungeons for valor) but there was also an easy hard-stop where your returns weren't worth it. Now they put in an endless grind as a shameful way of keeping people subbed. Funny enough, I was a constant subscriber except for a period when I moved and didn't really have time anyway. Ever since Legion I've taken extended periods of time to unsub because it's just such an annoyance for anyone that only likes to raid difficult content. Congrats if you like menial content. But I don't.

Also, because of this never-ending grind, I don't feel like any time spent on alts is a good decision. As a raider, you're always looking out to make your raid better. And having fun leveling alts as a change of pace isn't possible because you need to pull that slot machine handle one more time to hope this M+ run will get the item you need. Or pull in more AP. Or run some stupidly boring expedition. Or that absolutely awful invasion shit, I don't even know what it's called. Non-raid content is just not fun for me. But in order to be semi-hardcore you have to do way too much shit to keep up (something that wasn't that bad before Legion).

I came back for BfA in a one night guild to see if it would be any better after quitting during Mythic Helya progression. It isn't. I'm done.

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There were other ways to keep people happy and engaged. They were incredibly successful before WoD WITHOUT titan-forging and AP. Just saying.

Another raidlogger whining about how the game isn't tailored to raidloggers. Heaven forbid that people actually want to play the game outside of raidnight.
WoD was the raidlogger expansion, universally reviled as the worst in WoW history (Sure, with the exception of raidloggers and AFK gold farmers)
Heaven forbid that people actually want to play the game outside of raidnight.

[Dysheki]

Another raidlogger whining about how the game isn't tailored to raidloggers. Heaven forbid that people actually want to play the game outside of raidnight.
WoD was the raidlogger expansion, universally reviled as the worst in WoW history (Sure, with the exception of raidloggers and AFK gold farmers)
Heaven forbid that people actually want to play the game outside of raidnight.

Again, before WoD there were raids that didn't require all of this. You needed consumables and very limited activities that had a strict end.

And if I literally enjoy zero content outside of raid, why would you care if I were a raidlogger? There is plenty of content not related to raids that could be done. Just don't force it on raiders.

[pitakos]

Scrap the 1-2 hour per day for quests, you only need 15-20 min for the emissarry. Ignore the 2-3 hours for PvP, because you dont need the extra 100 dps a trinket might give you to kill mythic bosses, only legit reason is min maxing for world first or maybe top 100-200 at most, 9 hour raiding doesnt require this. If you don't like farming herbs, try and sell boosts then buy the mats, up to you.

[Ealyssa]

Or just have raiding be raiding without all the Outside of raid preparation needed.

Nope thanks. It's not Fortnite but a MMORPG.

[huth]

Again, before WoD there were raids that didn't require all of this. You needed consumables and very limited activities that had a strict end.

And if I literally enjoy zero content outside of raid, why would you care if I were a raidlogger? There is plenty of content not related to raids that could be done. Just don't force it on raiders.

No raids that required significantly less than now. AP doesn't significantly impact this unless you fail to realise how inefficient grinding it is. Most lucrative sources are limited supply, and you need more than twice as much AP two stay 3 levels ahead and almost three times as much to stay 4 ahead of someone.

[Monolithi]

Again, before WoD there were raids that didn't require all of this. You needed consumables and very limited activities that had a strict end.

And if I literally enjoy zero content outside of raid, why would you care if I were a raidlogger? There is plenty of content not related to raids that could be done. Just don't force it on raiders.

For true raiders that is not forced, but raidloggers might feel like that...
If game is made as raid simulator, I would agree with you...but WoW is much more than raidsimulator.

[HuxNeva]

Again, before WoD there were raids that didn't require all of this. You needed consumables and very limited activities that had a strict end.

And if I literally enjoy zero content outside of raid, why would you care if I were a raidlogger? There is plenty of content not related to raids that could be done. Just don't force it on raiders.

Nobody is forcing anything on you. Run your raids, it will be fine.
Want to put in some effort? Maybe fill your Islands bar (40mins/week), do your emissaries (1h/week) and run a single M+ (40mins/week).
All the rest is cherries on top, with rapidly diminishing returns.

[Armourboy]

AP grinding is fucking stupid and the asshole that thought it was a good idea should be fired.

I raided semi-hardcore from WotLK to the start of Legion. There were some ups and downs. But more often than not you had to raid to get the best gear, you didn't have to worry about RNGesus and titanforging, and you basically had to do some consumable stuff outside of raid, and there was an end game with everything. Sometimes you had dailies (daily quests for tokens or daily dungeons for valor) but there was also an easy hard-stop where your returns weren't worth it. Now they put in an endless grind as a shameful way of keeping people subbed. Funny enough, I was a constant subscriber except for a period when I moved and didn't really have time anyway. Ever since Legion I've taken extended periods of time to unsub because it's just such an annoyance for anyone that only likes to raid difficult content. Congrats if you like menial content. But I don't.

Also, because of this never-ending grind, I don't feel like any time spent on alts is a good decision. As a raider, you're always looking out to make your raid better. And having fun leveling alts as a change of pace isn't possible because you need to pull that slot machine handle one more time to hope this M+ run will get the item you need. Or pull in more AP. Or run some stupidly boring expedition. Or that absolutely awful invasion shit, I don't even know what it's called. Non-raid content is just not fun for me. But in order to be semi-hardcore you have to do way too much shit to keep up (something that wasn't that bad before Legion).

I came back for BfA in a one night guild to see if it would be any better after quitting during Mythic Helya progression. It isn't. I'm done.

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There were other ways to keep people happy and engaged. They were incredibly successful before WoD WITHOUT titan-forging and AP. Just saying.

That's the problem, there are some in the raiding community that have never been happy doing anything but logging in and raiding no matter what it was. Blizzard continually tried different things only to hear people cry about it too. Finally with WoD they completely removed it and the game tanked hard.

They are going back to what worked in the past, and while the current solution isn't perfect, it's pretty clear cut that if you want to raid high end from now on, you are going to need to do something outside of just raiding.

[ONCHEhap]

It really isn't
I'm raiding 9 hours a week,and farming AP 1 to 2 hours a week and I'm neck level 42,half way towards 43

If that's too time consumming for you,you're not meant to be a mythic raider,go back to heroic

[youswas]

Point 1. 6-9 hours / week progressing in the raid itself (depending on how hardcore you are, it might be up to 12 hours or more).

Point 2. 1-2 hours / day grinding Azerite. Flying would cut down this time sink dramatically but let's be fair, flying is not happening this expansion.

Point 3. 30-60 mins / week clearing weekly mythic+ for cache.

Point 4. 2-3 hours / week capping conquest for cache 2 (cuz PvP trinkets are better than PvE trinkets).

Point 5. 2-3 hours / week grinding herbs and other consumables (because Blizzard ostensibly refuses to add a herb vendor). This is even worse on low pop realms where you can't just buy consumables from the AH due to price or scarcity.

Add all this shit up. You spend MORE time preparing for raids than actually raiding. And most of it is just a boring time sink. The only thing that's excusable is the mythic+ part because at the very least it's also endgame PvE content.

Remove AP grinds. No one likes them.
Make raids drop good gear. What is the point of raiding mythic if it doesn't drop BiS?
And for the love of God, add a herb vendor.
That is all.

Why would I need to spend 1 - 2 hours every day grinding azerite? The fuck? The only time I actually "grinded" Azerite was in the month before BoD dropped and since my guild had already gotten CE we either raided 3 hours a week or not at all. Before that I rarely even did Island Expeditions. I was in a 6 hour guild that got CE in Uldir and I raid logged. I'm in a 6/9M guild and I've never conquest capped this expansion at all. I do M+ sometimes because it's fun and can get good gear, but even that I don't do hardcore, my IO score is like 1200.

[IceMan1763]

In what world is 17 hours of wow per week too much? Do you expect to do cutting edge content by playing 3 hours a week?

If you can clear the hardest content (like the current Mythic raid, for example) in 3 hours, then yes, that's what I expect.

If your group is skilled enough to do that, the other content (which is now required) is trivial and mind numbingly boring to you. Forcing people to do it will only burn them out and make them leave the game. At the same time, things like AP only matter to those people as more "casual" players (doing lower difficulty content) get enough AP naturally. It's a shit system made by shit brained devs.

[Tekkommo]

2-3 hours a week for grinding mats? Lol wtf.

Anyway, sounds like Mythic isn't for you.

[Accendor]

There was NO bullshit that kept you playing before or after the raid time, it was the best time to be a mythic raider.

Except it was the WORST time for mythic raiders because there was NOTHING to do outside of raids.

[netherflame]

Point 1. 6-9 hours / week progressing in the raid itself (depending on how hardcore you are, it might be up to 12 hours or more).

Point 2. 1-2 hours / day grinding Azerite. Flying would cut down this time sink dramatically but let's be fair, flying is not happening this expansion.

Point 3. 30-60 mins / week clearing weekly mythic+ for cache.

Point 4. 2-3 hours / week capping conquest for cache 2 (cuz PvP trinkets are better than PvE trinkets).

Point 5. 2-3 hours / week grinding herbs and other consumables (because Blizzard ostensibly refuses to add a herb vendor). This is even worse on low pop realms where you can't just buy consumables from the AH due to price or scarcity.

Add all this shit up. You spend MORE time preparing for raids than actually raiding. And most of it is just a boring time sink. The only thing that's excusable is the mythic+ part because at the very least it's also endgame PvE content.

Remove AP grinds. No one likes them.
Make raids drop good gear. What is the point of raiding mythic if it doesn't drop BiS?
And for the love of God, add a herb vendor.
That is all.

Although I agree with your general point, I don't particularly think 1 is a problem. I don't know that many people that are still doing all their azurite quests everyday so 2 is a pretty moot point since you reach a point of diminishing returns on that pretty quickly, my guild has decided rather then grinding mains hardcore we have a fleet of alts ready to swap in at a moments notice that have pretty comparable gear to mains. 3 isn't a problem either as typically you are doing m+ anyways, although I see your point if you'd like to go back to true raidlogging style game.

The big points I agree with are 4 and 5, 4 because not only are the pvp trinkets much better in overall power then the pve trinkets but they feel much more consistent since the pve trinkets feel like they have either weird conditions that aren't conducive to raiding(See Sliver) or won't always line up with your other CDs thus reducing their effectiveness(See Paku). Then we have the problem with 5 where this is not only a boring time sink, but we are now living in a system where the only profession that seems to be making money consistently anymore is Herbalism, Alchemy is still somewhat of a gamble due to procs but you make money longterm in most casts.

[Blackmist]

The price of potions is horrendous. 500g each. There's no way to get that sort of gold from activities either. A daily emissary gives enough for 4 pots. It's not worth doing.

They've pulled all decent sources of gold from the game, but everything is still priced like they haven't.

[rohoz]

Except it was the WORST time for mythic raiders because there was NOTHING to do outside of raids.

lol you're completely wrong but you're entitled to your wrong opinion

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The price of potions is horrendous. 500g each. There's no way to get that sort of gold from activities either. A daily emissary gives enough for 4 pots. It's not worth doing.

They've pulled all decent sources of gold from the game, but everything is still priced like they haven't.

when you make your own consumables they are only worth the time invested

[Loveliest]

I agree that it's very time consuming. But not necessarily because of grinds - I actually spend a lot of time in WoW doing random crap and not necessarily for raid. Mostly it's the time where I study all available info and logs. If you do heroic only you can take a look over the abilities once and try to brute force it - usually gear will get you pretty far.
And in truth, progression guilds that say "we only raid 2 times a week" is actually "we only raid 2 times a week but at the start we'll push for more days and more progress). I was in a raiding guild that said 3 raids for 3 hours and in fact it was 5 days x 4 hours when the new raids were out. This led me to quit high end raiding because I was very tired. Raiding 20 hours a week was like a part-time job and it was eating up all of my free time - I was starting to feel jealous over the rest of the guild; apparently only myself and my offtank had full time jobs, the rest didn't or had extremely flexible work schedules (like from 11 am to 6 pm).
In the end, I quit and settled for something more inline with my work schedule. It doesn't actually suck as much as I thought, because I can actually skip raids and not feel guilty about it.

As a side note: I always bought my consumables. Probably why I was always nearly broke, but it saved me time. I'm an enchanter, so at least that didn't cost me an arm and a leg.

[Accendor]

lol you're completely wrong but you're entitled to your wrong opinion

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Ok, feel free to enlighten me what you did outside of mythic raiding except PVP.

[HuxNeva]

It really isn't
I'm raiding 9 hours a week,and farming AP 1 to 2 hours a day and I'm neck level 42,half way towards 43

If that's too time consumming for you,you're not meant to be a mythic raider,go back to heroic

The LOL part is I'm AP 'grinding' maybe 2 hours a week (3 or 4 islands, the emissaries, and most missions) and I just hit 41.

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The price of potions is horrendous. 500g each. There's no way to get that sort of gold from activities either. A daily emissary gives enough for 4 pots. It's not worth doing.

They've pulled all decent sources of gold from the game, but everything is still priced like they haven't.

Well, I made net 7M profit this expansion from some professions and a bit of amateurish AH play, and I never skipped food pots and flasks on M+ or raids.

[rohoz]

Ok, feel free to enlighten me what you did outside of mythic raiding except PVP.

absolutely nothing, and that's what made it great.
Raid, log out. Brilliant.