Do you care about branding in cars?

[Thereturn]

As the title asks, but some detail follows.

Id like to say I am a car guy. I am fairly invested in them as a hobby. My wife's valentine's day gift to me is tickets to the toronto international auto show and we go together. When i went to it this weekend for the first time ever for some reason I was excited about what something other than the european brands were offering. e.g. generally ppl aim for the section with BMW, merc, audi, alfa, jag etc etc etc. But I having recently test driven a Genesis G70 3.3TT, i was completely taken by it. But while being there heard more than once the general whisper of "well but its a hyundai".

I mean in the end, if someone wants to go on that rope, then audis a4s are just overpriced jettas and lexus es is an overpriced toyota camry (fairly incorrect statements i know).

My question is. if a mechanically sound automotive comes along. and all thats different is the prestige and a cheaper price point, would you care? Would you pay $5000 extra just to have a branded car, but be slower or less prestigious? Mind you prestigious here does not mean fit and finish and luxury as many brands are now offering the same thing with same quality. Instead prestigious would be e.g "oh well Alfas have a great racing heritage".

Opinions?

Kia stinger looks awesome. But its a kia. Comes at 55k here rhough cheaper than an a4.

[Minikin]

That's kind of the point.

It's not an 'overpriced X or Y'. It's a different car. And arguably a better car.

I mean, just comparing a 2019 Audi A4 with a 2019 Jetta, the audi is clearly a superior car, from a specs perspective. Bigger engine, bigger tires, better suspension. It's clearly not just a rebranded vehicle.

You're statement is "They're the same (except we know they're not)".

Very few cars are just rebranded something else, and usually there's a reason for that cost difference, and audience difference. Whether or not that value is something you WANT is opinion and personal preference.

I was at the toronto auto show this weekend and was looking at the new lincoln aviator and a couple editors were there. one guy started with "this looks like a range rover" and the other stopped him and he had a fair point. he said yea of course lincoln is supported by a ford, but associating them doing something good to a range rover knocks their work down or as makes it look like a cheap knock off which it isnt either. and hes right. sometimes the badge ends up adding a fat 5k to the tag just because its there. no performance or luxury gain.

dont get me wrong higher end german triad luxury is a league of its own. the 7 series, the s class, the a8 are behemoths. but the line is very blurred now in the lower segments of the general 3 series, c class and a4 (not including M, AMG and RS derivations). brand snobbery when looking at the lowest echelons of a brand is not really worth 5k when the magic of that brand is relegated to higher models. whats the point of touting "oh look i have a 320xi" when its so watered down that is obvious its just a cash grab.

then as mentioned, i was by the genesis exhibit and there is a tiny minority sniggering, "well its just a hyundai". no matter that the car performs better than most of its competition and is at a very aggressive price point. heck they deliver the damn thing in a glass box to your house in canada.

lexus started similarly. they brought the car to you and left it with you for a day to test drive it. not to mention the initial LS was one hell of a bargain and gave premium luxury. and thats my question. Would you spend 10k extra just cuz it has 4 rings at the front, when no major mechanical or luxury difference remains?

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Kia stinger looks awesome. But its a kia. Comes at 55k here rhough cheaper than an a4.

last year when they brought it to the auto show for the first time. i was shocked. not because of what that car is. but that there was a line up to sit in a kia. a line up. in the kia exhibition. thats like seeing a unicorn. on a comet.

[chazus]

new lincoln aviator and a couple editors were there. one guy started with "this looks like a range rover" and the other stopped him and he had a fair point. he said yea of course lincoln is supported by a ford, but associating them doing something good to a range rover knocks their work down or as makes it look like a cheap knock off which it isnt either. and hes right. sometimes the badge ends up adding a fat 5k to the tag just because its there. no performance or luxury gain.

They're not the same. It's not just a badge, so the entire point is moot. Just because a guy can't tell the difference between two cars visually (which obviously they're not), and are too lazy to look at specs, or parts, doesn't mean its true. It's like saying "What if this apple.. WAS AN ORANGE. Except its not."

Would you spend 10k extra just cuz it has 4 rings at the front, when no major mechanical or luxury difference remains?

Would I? No. However that's not the case, so again the question is moot. Show me a car that is actually 'the same' but just costs more.

[Minikin]

They're not the same. It's not just a badge, so the entire point is moot. Just because a guy can't tell the difference between two cars visually (which obviously they're not), and are too lazy to look at specs, or parts, doesn't mean its true. It's like saying "What if this apple.. WAS AN ORANGE. Except its not."


Would I? No. However that's not the case, so again the question is moot. Show me a car that is actually 'the same' but just costs more.

chazus, i feel like we are talking of the same thing but on different pages. iam sayin they ARE different, and as the line blurs there is NO need to pay extra just for a badge.

[Bigbazz]

dont get me wrong higher end german triad luxury is a league of its own. the 7 series, the s class, the a8 are behemoths. but the line is very blurred now in the lower segments of the general 3 series, c class and a4 (not including M, AMG and RS derivations). brand snobbery when looking at the lowest echelons of a brand is not really worth 5k when the magic of that brand is relegated to higher models. whats the point of touting "oh look i have a 320xi" when its so watered down that is obvious its just a cash grab..

Worth pointing out that there is a large spectrum between a basic A4 and an RS4. With the A4 you have many different feature and trimming options, engine options, drivetrain options (like S-Line/Quattro/Black Edition), then you have the S series which are higher performance models, and then you have the RS which is effectively the supercar series with ludicrous performance. The business class is going to be a well specced A or S model, nobody buys an RS for luxury because it's just an impractical show off car, like a Ferrari with an actual boot.

Who really goes and buys an A4 with just the basic spec and the lowest engine anyway? If you're going to buy one of these cars you spec it accordingly or you can't blame the company for "cash grabbing" when down spec the car. Good example of this was on youtube recently



This video specifically, car is missing features you'd find on a 10-15 year old car, but that's because it's a used car and whoever bought it down specced it below the standard package (who knew that was even a thing?), making the car seem a lot worse value than is justified. Obviously you pay some sort of price for the brand name but really these low spec entry level models aren't especially expensive when compared to other cars in their market, if you spec them well the difference in luxury and build makes sense.

In short, you're not getting ripped off because you bought an A4 instead of say a comparable Ford, the pricing isn't out of line at all. At least not here in Europe.

[chazus]

chazus, i feel like we are talking of the same thing but on different pages. iam sayin they ARE different, and as the line blurs there is NO need to pay extra just for a badge.

And I'm saying the question is pointless because in the world we live in, they aren't the same. So it isn't just the badge. It's all the other things.

Yes, BMW's cost more than Honda's. But they have different parts, and cater to a different market. I've never seen a 'badge markup' outside of actual con artists.

[Celista]

Nah. There's a lot of variability in regards to safety and performance among cars within a brand.

[Minikin]

And I'm saying the question is pointless because in the world we live in, they aren't the same. So it isn't just the badge. It's all the other things.

Yes, BMW's cost more than Honda's. But they have different parts, and cater to a different market. I've never seen a 'badge markup' outside of actual con artists.

What other things? IAM not comparing Honda's to bmws. They are not on the same playing field. But a Lexus or a Genesis or an Infiniti is an apt comparo. Yet they get shot down for having lower echelon sister brands. And generally offer more for less. If you want a truer example, compare a fully built g70 to a comparable 340xi. You will notice the BMW costs nearly 9k more.

[Kudos]

I used to be brand centric. Australia always had the rivalry of Ford vs Holden (Holden being owned by GM, but made in Australia). Our local V8 Supercars competition helped fuel that rivalry. I was always firmly in the Holden side. I loved the Torana, the Monaro and later on the Commodore.

Then Holden shut down local manufacturing. They started importing Opels from Europe and just slapped them with Holden badges. Now, I won't touch any imported Holden. I do not like the look of them and some have been plagued with quality issues.

I'm not brand centric anymore.

I currently drive a Mitsubishi Lancer and if I buy another car in the next few years, it will probably be a Mazda 3.

[chazus]

compare a fully built g70 to a comparable 340xi. You will notice the BMW costs nearly 9k more.

Lets see. 30% more powerful engine. 50% displacement.

Not even taking into account literally everything else in the car, which is literally hundreds of things, it's a better vehicle (if speed/power indicates better). I mean, what do you want? They're different vehicles. Different things cost different prices.

Is the Genesis -bad-? No, certainly not. But if you hid the badges on both, and showed the specs, I'd go "Yeah, that makes sense."

[Minikin]

Lets see. 30% more powerful engine. 50% displacement.

Not even taking into account literally everything else in the car, which is literally hundreds of things, it's a better vehicle (if speed/power indicates better). I mean, what do you want? They're different vehicles. Different things cost different prices.

Is the Genesis -bad-? No, certainly not. But if you hid the badges on both, and showed the specs, I'd go "Yeah, that makes sense."

Dont look at hp numbers man u know they are rated differently that's BMW for ages. Go YouTube and check the comparo or go to a reliable website like motortrend and car driver pick out the spec sheet.

If it was just about hp on a website then cars would just be an engine and nothing else.

They are at best milliseconds apart.

[chazus]

Dont look at hp numbers man u know they are rated differently that's BMW for ages. Go YouTube and check the comparo or go to a reliable website like motortrend and car driver pick out the spec sheet.

I checked out motortrend and all their pages are broken. Definitely reliable.

Honestly, it's not worth my time to do a ton of research. For most people who aren't concerned about a quarter mile time or something, they can just look at a spec sheet and go "this one is better, and thus costs more"

[Minikin]

I checked out motortrend and all their pages are broken. Definitely reliable.

Honestly, it's not worth my time to do a ton of research. For most people who aren't concerned about a quarter mile time or something, they can just look at a spec sheet and go "this one is better, and thus costs more"

Website works for me so the issue might be on your end. And if you aren't going to bother researching your point then the discussion is beyond you anyway

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I used to be brand centric. Australia always had the rivalry of Ford vs Holden (Holden being owned by GM, but made in Australia). Our local V8 Supercars competition helped fuel that rivalry. I was always firmly in the Holden side. I loved the Torana, the Monaro and later on the Commodore.

Then Holden shut down local manufacturing. They started importing Opels from Europe and just slapped them with Holden badges. Now, I won't touch any imported Holden. I do not like the look of them and some have been plagued with quality issues.

I'm not brand centric anymore.

I currently drive a Mitsubishi Lancer and if I buy another car in the next few years, it will probably be a Mazda 3.

I was upset when Holden had it's fall. They had a unique touch to them. And then Mitsubishi gave up on the lancer. Mazda is doing great and I fully expect them to keep getting better.

[chazus]

Website works for me so the issue might be on your end. And if you aren't going to bother researching your point then the discussion is beyond you anyway

I wouldn't expect every person to do 'in depth research' to find out differences between cars if spec sheets aren't useful.

Show me the page on motortrends that you spoke of.

[Jonnusthegreat]

The only thing I care about is the base audio system and the 'ambience' of being in the car. I bought my current car because the dash is intuitive as fuck (Kia Niro) and 51mpg is pretty decent too.

[Vash The Stampede]

As i said before im not talking about value of resale, or reliability. I explained in the OP that this is simply about prestige. Which is why used cars or older models are not part of the discussion. This is simply saying, I have $75000 in the bank. I am looking at say a 4 door car. I could get an Accord touring for $50k or I could get a bmw 320xi for $55k. obviously anyone worth their salt in car knowledge would know that the 320xi is not worth the extra 5k and thus spending 5k extra for it just means brand snobbery. the thread is simply looking for an opinion on that.

That doesn't make sense to me cause it isn't unlimited money. To me it would be based if you plan to own the car for 30 years or you lease it, and if you lease it then I would just care about how it looks and performs and screw everything else. I'll beat on the car and show it off until the lease is over and then the car is the dealerships problem. Something like a Genesis vs a BMW would matter to me but then I'm not being fiscally responsible and will abuse the car in more ways than one. The whole point of leasing the car is to avoid responsibility for it and therefore will buy a car based on prestige and not reliability.

Same idea with iPhone vs Android, if I didn't care about functionality and price then I'd buy an iPhone.

the stinger and the g70 do not share the same body frame. as i said before parts are similar but they are not the same car. if you would limit your scope of a car to engine and transmission then that is highly incorrect as there is alot more to a vehicle that defines its characteristics. The toyota 86 and subaru brz are incorrect examples here because just like the new supra and bmw z4 they are joint venture cars. That is like saying the audi r8 is the same as the lamborghini gallardo given that the v10 is related between the two. I own a LP560-4 and I have driven the v10 r8. They are supremely different in their approach for everything (mostly noticeable that one doesnt kill you as a daily driver the other does). Do they share similar parts? Of course they do. Are they the same machine, definitely not.

I don't know what kind of car guy you are but I've done a number of repairs from engine to body and I can tell you that it doesn't work that way. There's a reason why so many people are angry at the new Supra because it is essentially a BMW with a different body. How the car drives and feels can be changed very easily with suspension to steering to even sound absorbing material used in the interior. If the engine and transmission are the same then everything else is... adjustable. Those adjustments can make a world of difference in terms of feel but you can technically do this to just about any car and it isn't all that hard to do.

If the parts didn't matter then why care about a 3.3L Twin Turbo engine in the E70? Is the E70 worth getting with a 2.0L Turbo?

Ford and GM have cut cars because their offerings are failing compared to comparative japanese and soon korean offerings. I know this because i was marketting ambassador to Audi last summer and GM the summer prior. You will notice that the taurus, impala, xts and cruze are on the chopping block. The trucks arent the suvs arent. Because 1. suv market is booming. 2. anyone who has the money to buy a taurus would walk over and get themselves an avalon, anyone who has the money to buy an impala would get an accord or camry, anyone who has the money to get an xts would grab a lexus es, a 4 series gc, an a5 sportback, anyone who has money to get a cruze would take a civic or corolla or mazda 3. I dont know about the americas but leasing in the GTA is going crazy.

Nothing you said is incorrect but keep in mind if the car market was healthy then Ford and GM would probably be selling cars right now. But it isn't healthy as reports claim that auto sales are down by over 6% since a year ago. Don't go by personal experience as it's always biased.

i dont disagree with that statement. but my point is slightly tangential to this. generally ppl who are considering cars such as 440xi, 3.3tt g70 or c43s dont look to keep them beyond 5 year periods. because its a point of admission that you KNOW there will be issues after 5. so repairs and such are not a point of concern, just like premium fuel prices and higher insurance rates are not. you already know that is part of the package and account for it.

Then I buy based on recognition and performance cause in 5 years that car is no longer my problem. Then I will buy a BMW or a Mercedes just for looks and to show off, particularly an AMG cause I like power. Reliability and realistically price doesn't matter to me cause I'm technically renting it from the dealership. The difference of $5k is minor when it comes to a monthly lease payment.

Your original post kinda assumes a lot of things about peoples auto purchase habits.

[Paugh]

Don't like cars and don't care about their brands

[PokeKitty]

I drive a used MB C250, I wish I can own a S Class one day lol.

I like my current car because it is easy to drive and good handles.

[Minikin]

Worth pointing out that there is a large spectrum between a basic A4 and an RS4. With the A4 you have many different feature and trimming options, engine options, drivetrain options (like S-Line/Quattro/Black Edition), then you have the S series which are higher performance models, and then you have the RS which is effectively the supercar series with ludicrous performance. The business class is going to be a well specced A or S model, nobody buys an RS for luxury because it's just an impractical show off car, like a Ferrari with an actual boot.

Who really goes and buys an A4 with just the basic spec and the lowest engine anyway? If you're going to buy one of these cars you spec it accordingly or you can't blame the company for "cash grabbing" when down spec the car. Good example of this was on youtube recently



This video specifically, car is missing features you'd find on a 10-15 year old car, but that's because it's a used car and whoever bought it down specced it below the standard package (who knew that was even a thing?), making the car seem a lot worse value than is justified. Obviously you pay some sort of price for the brand name but really these low spec entry level models aren't especially expensive when compared to other cars in their market, if you spec them well the difference in luxury and build makes sense.

In short, you're not getting ripped off because you bought an A4 instead of say a comparable Ford, the pricing isn't out of line at all. At least not here in Europe.

i didnt know you could downspec. thats insane. over here in ontario, the base level cla doesnt even come with led lights standards. they come with those ugly ass yellow xenons and you pay like a 1000 bucks just to get led lights. THEN pay another hefty bit for the lights package that gives u the brandings and such. THEN if you want the heated seats and everything else under the sun that doesnt make it look like a civic with a merc badge u pay for all that too...........then u find out, oh shit its a front wheel drive merc lol.

loads of people here buy 320is or clas or base level a3s and think its hot shit. for some reason.

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I wouldn't expect every person to do 'in depth research' to find out differences between cars if spec sheets aren't useful.

Show me the page on motortrends that you spoke of.

i can agree about the spec sheets to a certain degree. but people who are vested into cars generally do follows reviews and comparos. of the two car and driver is more reputable as they are fairly unbiased (there have been some issues with the odd comparision). motortrend is not too bad but the editorials at car and driver are more thorough.

the links from both websites are below

bmw 3 series
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...i-test-review/
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019...-return-grace/

genesis g70
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...es-california/
https://www.motortrend.com/news/gene...r-of-the-year/


as an aside both magazines among many others smacked it in as car of the year for the sport sedan section. The reason that is shocking is because that segment wasnt just dominated by the 3 series. IT INVENTED IT. when anyone talked, 4 door car that can take a family but be exciting on the road, the 3 series was KING. there was no denying it no arguing it no doubting it. Over time however it crumbled away and as competition rose it took a few hits but still in the end held on. however now comes along this upstart brand with barely 2 years to its name, and a car thats a year old at best and smashes its way to the top of nearly every reputable editorial.

Now of course, they have literally no history being 2 years old and an offshoot of hyundai. the magic came at the cost of the previous cheif of BMW M division signing on with genesis to build the g70 and the senior interior designer of bentley moving to genesis to work on it too.

as for cost.
g70
$65000 taxes inc

340xi
$69000 tax inc IF you want to not get the HUD and blind spot assist, park assist, proximity alerts, and surround view. [G70 has all this in that 65k]
$72000 tax in IF you want those options above and the only gain that you have vs that g70 is a multifunctional digital speedo, because it does not offer that.

both cars are within milliseconds of each other depending which review you read. making the question. is the badge worth 5kish? or is the multifunctional display and the badge woth 7k?

*as an aside u can note that bmw's engine is heavily underrated. as in while the sticker says 320hp, it produces far more than that.
*also note the top gear 30mph to 50mph between the cars. a mountains difference and those are usually merging or highway overtaking speeds.

[chazus]

the links from both websites are below.

Well, I was hoping for actual spec sheets as you recommended, not just a review from one guy. That said.. I read the article, and it basically says "Its really nice" and also makes it clear that the BMW is just a better car in most of the categories. Maybe not $9000 more, but is certainly better in performance.