Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[Ishayu]

How about making a form of progression that isn't just gear and bigger numbers? That's all gear is, and it's been the same since the game's inception. TF only adds additional RNG on top of this, it doesn't fix the root of the problem. People are looking for something more meaningful and character-driven than finishing a WQ 5 seconds faster now that they've cleared mythic G'Huun.

Well that's obvious, but how exactly?

At the very same time as we've got this problem, we've practically got an army of people screaming at the top of their lungs that group finders and things like that are the best thing ever, precisely because it allows everyone to see all the content with little to no effort early on. In a world where a significant number of players want that, you cannot deliver compelling progression.

Meaningful progression would be that the bigger numbers let you do things, see things, and complete things you could not do previously, but if all the content needs to exist in a version designed for literally everyone regardless of whether they have done any progression at all, then this cannot be made.

Preach's argument is completely on point. What exactly is he preparing for in the new tier, again? He farms gear only to have it all replaced almost instantly, and even if he didn't get it all replaced instantly, he could still see all the content with all of his friends in a difficulty lower. There is literally no incentive for him whatsoever to farm gear and improve his character.

But woe be you if you try to explain that this is a real and genuine problem. You'll get called an elitist, you'll get flamed, you'll get told off by by legions of people who are holier than thou and who believe that, because they pay a subscription fee, therefore they should have access to everything. If you try to bring up the fact that you don't even want the majority of content out of people's reach - heck even mage towers and maybe a couple of raid bosses per expansion would do - they just ignore you and keep going until you've been driven completely insane and just give up. Preach has been there, too. Remember the video "The Problem In the Mists"? This is just an extension of that. Blizzard managed to defuse the problem slightly with set bonuses (and then not dropping them in LFR and M+), but in their absence we're back exactly where we started.

So what's the solution, then? Oh, timegating! If we can't gate things behind skill or farming or gear or any sort of personal effort, then we must gate it behind the sheer passage of time! It's the only option. Except then we get ... well, timegating! It's just not fun or engaging and people are justifiably annoyed that the effort they put in doesn't mean anything. They just need to wait - there is no incentive to do anything else, and that's where Preach has found himself now.

It has to change. It needs to change. If it doesn't change, WoW won't have long left.

[justandulas]

Great, then you will get to enjoy your amazing gameplay soon enough, you just have to live with the fact that objectively Vanilla WoW gameplay was so basic, so simple that it's almost retarded to claim BfA has less gameplay than that, because at that point you legit need to show me a class or spec in BfA that literally tops meters with one spell only or does optimal DPS it can by not using any skills at all.

- - - Updated - - -



You know what's exciting? Pulling Mythic Jaina and having all hell break loose. M.Jaina P1 has more bloody raid mechanics than whole Molten Core combined.

And you have to live with the fact that CURRENT WoW is an MMO in name only and has less RPG mechanics in it than even simple board games. Progression was so much better in classic that i'll be having the time of my life again, where as you will be enjoying Diablo 3 the big group edition.

And BFA is more simple because legit every class is copy pasted off each other where back in the day they'd all play DRASTICALLY different. Today, everyone has a few build moves to build their "energy" then a dump mechanic. Even mana has been homogenized. You enjoy your shallow game with 'better' gameplay, and i'll take the worse gameplay that offers more variety and infinite depth.

[Gaidax]

And you have to live with the fact that CURRENT WoW is an MMO in name only and has less RPG mechanics in it than even simple board games. Progression was so much better in classic that i'll be having the time of my life again, where as you will be enjoying Diablo 3 the big group edition.

And BFA is more simple because legit every class is copy pasted off each other where back in the day they'd all play DRASTICALLY different. Today, everyone has a few build moves to build their "energy" then a dump mechanic. Even mana has been homogenized. You enjoy your shallow game with 'better' gameplay, and i'll take the worse gameplay that offers more variety and infinite depth.

At least I don't top bloody meters by pressing one button while boss sits there and chucks out 1 out of 3 mechanics total it has every 20 seconds.

I actually need to play the game in raid as opposed to setting a drinking bird on my "3" key and wanking with my right hand watching that sweet pr0n on second monitor.

And when I roll a bloody Paladin it means a warrior of light and justice fighting in the front lines and not frikkin' shitty priest in plate exclusively yet again setting drinking bird to "3" key in raids.

The amazing Vanilla WoW gameplay.

[justandulas]

At least I don't top bloody meters by pressing one button while boss sits there and chucks out 1 out of 3 mechanics it has every 20 seconds.

I actually need to play the game in raid as opposed to setting a drinking bird on my "3" key and wanking with my right hand watching that sweet pr0n on second monitor.

The amazing Vanilla WoW gameplay.

You'd have to top meters at all first

[ID811717]

[*]Normal/Heroic dungeons are removed, only mythic and mythic+ remain. They always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of it being a +1 or a +10, HOWEVER at the start of each reset you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key with which you can upgrade the gear you got from the previous week to heroic raid quality. For example 1-6 could award you one token, 7-9 two tokens and 10+ three tokens.

This would not work, unless Blizzard's goal was to exclude M+ from being end-game progression content. Capping M+ gear at heroic raid quality would immediately kill the competitive M+ scene. Hardcore M+ only players should be able to get mythic quality gear at the same rate as from doing mythic raids.

[Prime92]

Blizzard should just remove garbage unnecessary RNG and titanforge/warforge BS.

Amen to that. They also should make gear progression adequate to learning curve and performance.

[Gaidax]

You'd have to top meters at all first

You are right, the credit in TBC went to my drinking bird pressing "3" for that, cuz engaging warlock gameplay man! So yeah, I did not do it - the bird did, I just watched the movie.

Totally more engaging and advanced than BfA amirite? Also red is blue guys.

[Ishayu]

The only alternative to the current system is the old system where rewards didnt increase, but new raids gave higher ilvl gear.

Exactly. Now, I'm going to argue that this was better, and that this kind of progression of content and numbers should extend far beyond raiding and into almost every facet of the game. It should be the cornerstone of how we build characters. Better gear unlocks new adventure, new adventure leads to even better gear, ad infinitum. Repeating the same adventure with higher numbers is just a grind, and nobody likes grinding.

But I understand a lot of people don't share that sentiment.

But my message to Blizzard is this: There are only these two options. That's it. Pick one.

[Eleccybubb]

The funny thing is. Thunderforging and Warforging back in MoP were fine as it was only 6 item levels. Therefore a bonus.

An LFR piece from a difficulty that you can afk in should not be able to upgrade to the item level of a Mythic piece that requires effort to progress in. Period.

Same with Warfronts. 20 mins or so of time is not worth a one time 400 piece every 2 weeks.

And Timewalking. 5 dungeons aren't worth a Normal raid piece. Nor are 4 Mythic Dungeons worth a Heroic raid piece.

The whole treadmill is out of whack partly due to how welfare the rewards are.

[Dilbon]

The whole progression model is outdated anyway. If you want to be special, find another way.

[Loveliest]

So what are we doing here? Crying that some people have finished Mythic raid and they have no proper incentive to keep going? How many here are in this situation?
Isn't it the whole purpose to reach your objective and be happy you're done?
How many here really have this other issue? Finished Jaina but have to keep going for wf / tf alone?

[Ishayu]

The whole progression model is outdated anyway. If you want to be special, find another way.

If you don't like character progression, why on God's green Earth did you pick up an MMORPG?

Seriously...

[Alphatorg]

I think it's ridiculous how hung up people are on loot. Loot is not gameplay, it's a means to an end. WoW is a game, if you enjoy Arena, raiding, M+ you should do it regardless of loot and if you don't enjoy these you shouldn't do them regardless of loot. But it really seems people are motivated to do things they don't like for meaningless items, which they don't even need ingame and whose benefit comes with a short-lived expiration date anyway.

[potis]

I think it's ridiculous how hung up people are on loot. Loot is not gameplay, it's a means to an end. WoW is a game, if you enjoy Arena, raiding, M+ you should do it regardless of loot and if you don't enjoy these you shouldn't do them regardless of loot. But it really seems people are motivated to do things they don't like for meaningless items, which they don't even need ingame and whose benefit comes with a short-lived expiration date anyway.

Reality is, WoW is all about loot, but as a mean to raid.

Game is literally "End game Loot chasing", or "Western MMORPG Genre" as to the opposite "Eastern RPG Genre of the 2000s" where the majority of the gameplay was "Grinding levels".

The problem with WoW the last few years is that they let the majority catch up, and they changed the treadmill with even faster catch up mechanics each time which allows the majority to complain.

Little billy that started WoW in 2014, doesnt know what game he is playing.

Little Nick that started WoW in 2008 but was 10 years old and never actually played WoW as it was intended, does not understand what he is supposed to do outside of raids because the reality is, he should be raiding.

Blizzard catered to every whim and request over the years, eventually they simply cant add things for everyone.

WoW was and is all about raiding, its the best game and pretty much the only game left that can offer non-buggy PvE content semi-regularly.

People seem to not be able to comprehend that.

Most people on mmo-champion believe that because their character is 395 (When they should be around 415-420) is somehow important, with just wearing whatever the game threw at them as they did random shit and never doing what the game is supposed to be.

If you dont want to raid, and you farmed the stuff outside, then unsub, you shouldnt remain subbed, the game is not for you.

Just because before you required to play 5 times the time to get the same gear and you believe it was "content" when the better players simply did it exactly as they do now in pretty much the same time then you can see a lot of things differently.

If they remove all these weekly chests, and free catch up mechanics, the same people are gonna start crying:

"Blizzard i am stuck at 350, i dont wanna raid, WHAT DO" which the correct response is "WOW IS ABOUT RAIDING, GO RAID"

[exochaft]

They won't remove titanforging. The reason why there is a 30 ilvl gap between tiers is literally because of titanforging.

Also with your model the moment a new tier comes out heroic would be a 100% complete waste of time for anyone with mythic quality gear from the previous tier. Also anyone that has upgraded their gear to mythic +10 weekly chest quality (mythic quality) heroic is also already a waste of time when the new tier releases. Those players would either need to jump into mythic for worthwhile upgrades or just not raid at all.

Having 30+ item level gaps fixes two issues. TF existing and giving a reason for current tier mythic raiders to do some heroic clears or current tier heroic raiders to do normal at least once or twice.

Preach is wrong here.

I don't think the 30 ilvl gap exists because of titanforging, it exists because Blizzard wanted upgrades to feel meaningful/powerful, and Blizz has deemed that amount of ilvl right now is enough for players to feel it. This means, for example, that a heroic raider in Uldir should feel a jump in power when getting gear from heroic BoD. The WF/TF system has literally nothing to do with it, you could actually removed WF/TF and this model would still likely be employed in the game. The WF/TF system is there for making M+ loot and M+/PvP cache actually work, and also to act as a carrot for reclearing content... however, one big point that Preach did make was that said carrot isn't likely enough now because the ilvl gap between tiers is so big right now. I suppose it comes down to whether Blizz feels that a mythic raider should find upgrades in heroic of the next tier (or a heroic raider should find upgrades in normal, etc.), and if they do then the gear grind is obsolete for the previous tier. Basically, every tier is now the equivalent of an end-of-expansion gear grind, where the gear just becomes obsolete the first day of the next content cycle.

[Gaidax]

The problem with WoW the last few years is that they let the majority catch up, and they changed the treadmill with even faster catch up mechanics each time which allows the majority to complain.

I sort of think it's a good problem to have because it comes as a result of them stabilising content delivery. Having a new major raid every half a year proper is a blessing for me as a raider that plays this game to enjoy difficult and engaging raids.

Naturally this expedited cadence also expedites gear resets, but for me it's means to an end basically and I am not making some huge dramas out of something that should be natural by this point - every new raid tier soft resetting gear.

To be honest - I would not really mind if it wouldn't, but then I don't want to end up with some sort of TBC situation where playerbase was split between several raids at the same time and there was poaching right and left.

[nyc81991]

My only issue is with how high titanforging can go currently. For example, I just got a 425 trinket from my M+ weekly chest. That's 10 ilvls above Mythic raiding gear for free and much less effort. If gear is going to go higher than Mythic raiding gear it should be 5 ilvls max in my opinion. There is even an argument to be made that gear shouldn't go higher than mythic raid drops.

[Phookah]

Something tells me those are very few and far between on this forum.

Pretty sure my dog leaves a couple things behind every morning that are more intelligent and insightful than Preach.

[Gaidax]

I don't think the 30 ilvl gap exists because of titanforging, it exists because Blizzard wanted upgrades to feel meaningful/powerful, and Blizz has deemed that amount of ilvl right now is enough for players to feel it. This means, for example, that a heroic raider in Uldir should feel a jump in power when getting gear from heroic BoD. The WF/TF system has literally nothing to do with it, you could actually removed WF/TF and this model would still likely be employed in the game. The WF/TF system is there for making M+ loot and M+/PvP cache actually work, and also to act as a carrot for reclearing content... however, one big point that Preach did make was that said carrot isn't likely enough now because the ilvl gap between tiers is so big right now. I suppose it comes down to whether Blizz feels that a mythic raider should find upgrades in heroic of the next tier (or a heroic raider should find upgrades in normal, etc.), and if they do then the gear grind is obsolete for the previous tier. Basically, every tier is now the equivalent of an end-of-expansion gear grind, where the gear just becomes obsolete the first day of the next content cycle.

Well we don't need to speculate on this, it exists exactly because of first sentence on top of very correct sentiment that if Mythic raider would go into next tier raid and got this new drop only to realise it's a sidegrade would feel like shit.

I think this 30 ilvl gap is ideal, because it is significant enough to make new stuff is an upgrade (even if not optimal), but on the other hand not to scale shit out of control too hard.

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My only issue is with how high titanforging can go currently. For example, I just got a 425 trinket from my M+ weekly chest. That's 10 ilvls above Mythic raiding gear for free and much less effort. If gear is going to go higher than Mythic raiding gear it should be 5 ilvls max in my opinion. There is even an argument to be made that gear shouldn't go higher than mythic raid drops.

This is something I disagree with because realistically - this a super unlikely scenario. Plainly speaking it simply does not happen to the extent that makes any sort of actual impact, because the odds are massively against you here. What is more likely is that you will open your chest, look at yet another pair of 410 gloves, sigh and disenchant it.

[Ishayu]

I don't think the 30 ilvl gap exists because of titanforging, it exists because Blizzard wanted upgrades to feel meaningful/powerful, and Blizz has deemed that amount of ilvl right now is enough for players to feel it. This means, for example, that a heroic raider in Uldir should feel a jump in power when getting gear from heroic BoD. The WF/TF system has literally nothing to do with it, you could actually removed WF/TF and this model would still likely be employed in the game. The WF/TF system is there for making M+ loot and M+/PvP cache actually work, and also to act as a carrot for reclearing content... however, one big point that Preach did make was that said carrot isn't likely enough now because the ilvl gap between tiers is so big right now. I suppose it comes down to whether Blizz feels that a mythic raider should find upgrades in heroic of the next tier (or a heroic raider should find upgrades in normal, etc.), and if they do then the gear grind is obsolete for the previous tier. Basically, every tier is now the equivalent of an end-of-expansion gear grind, where the gear just becomes obsolete the first day of the next content cycle.

They keep increasing the amount of item levels that is needed before it "feels powerful". At first it was 6 iLvL, then it was 11, then it was 13, then it was 15, and now it's 30?

Items are not noticeable if you end up defeating the same enemies doing the same things afterwards. I can (and I did!) write an addon that multiplies all damage, healing, health, and mana numbers in the game by a factor. I did it because I found the numbers had become too big, but if we just wanna make numbers big we can use it for the exact opposite easily! It was called SquishMe. Pretty sure it's broken now, but feel free to look it up!

But obviously it doesn't make sense sense to do this. You don't notice the difference because there is none. Blizzard needs to completely rethink their content structure for loot to work again. Loot fundamentally isn't about the loot itself; it's about what you can do with it, and what it confers you have done already as a status symbol of sorts. The actual number doesn't matter whether it's 395, 64, or 356893673634.