Why torture Derek?

[Super Dickmann]

Bizarre, but as we've seen from the 8.1.5 cinematic it actually already worked (assuming of course that Derek has been conditioned). Baine brought Derek to Jaina under a flag of amity, and Jaina accepted him and has him close at hand - if Derek's sole purpose was to murder Jaina he would've been able to do it right then and there, slipping that dagger straight into her chest while he's at arm's length from her. Sylvanas might be up to bigger things, of course; for example murdering Anduin as Jaina hands him off (presumably to Calia as intimated by the cutscene), again assuming she successfully conditioned Derek and knows about Calia.

Personally speaking, I would've used Derek to kill Jaina and considered myself lucky it had gone that well, we'll have to see what actually happens as the story unfolds.

Speaking from my own viewpoint, I consider the whole plan to be very poor from the get go. It's reliant on things that Sylvanas has no real control over, such as how the Proudmoores react to seeing their own dead and the method of trafficking Derek is also very unclear. Even then, the impact is only there with a profound stroke of luck, say Derek offing Jaina while she's unaware or being able to use her fleet-control pendant because he's also a Proudmoore. It was a crapshoot and even if it were successful it wouldn't have been worth the huge amount of friction created by making a spectacle out of the guy's torture.

From a story perspective though, I don't think he's conditioned because much of the evidence for it is circumstantial. Things like the placement of hte boat that could just be Blizzard's use of assets, as well as how emotional the scene with Jaina is meant to be and how he's put away from any Proudmoores. His real purpose of the narrative if you ask me is as an introduction to Calia and her role in the Horde. I don't think he has a part to play in the Alliance, simply because despite Jaina's extreme tolerance for him, she makes a point of how he can't come back. Similarly, there's no reason to assume that Sylvanas is aware of Calia. Certainly if she is she's an Arthas-like figure to Sylvanas, threatening her on a basic level that I doubt she'd be able to act with as much restraint towards.

[Dellis0991]

The torturing was to break his mind and afterwards would've been conditioning and orders. The torturing was to break his will to object the orders given. Even if they didn't torture him and just told him lies to make him angry there was still a chance he would go " I...I can't do this!...They are my family."

[Aucald]

Speaking from my own viewpoint, I consider the whole plan to be very poor from the get go. It's reliant on things that Sylvanas has no real control over, such as how the Proudmoores react to seeing their own dead and the method of trafficking Derek is also very unclear. Even then, the impact is only there with a profound stroke of luck, say Derek offing Jaina while she's unaware or being able to use her fleet-control pendant because he's also a Proudmoore. It was a crapshoot and even if it were successful it wouldn't have been worth the huge amount of friction created by making a spectacle out of the guy's torture.

No, it's not a real stellar plan - you'll get no argument on that score from me. These kind of elaborate "Xanatos Chess" style gambits rarely are, far too many things can go wrong in the domino-like cascade required to pull them off.

From a story perspective though, I don't think he's conditioned because much of the evidence for it is circumstantial. Things like the placement of hte boat that could just be Blizzard's use of assets, as well as how emotional the scene with Jaina is meant to be and how he's put away from any Proudmoores. His real purpose of the narrative if you ask me is as an introduction to Calia and her role in the Horde. I don't think he has a part to play in the Alliance, simply because despite Jaina's extreme tolerance for him, she makes a point of how he can't come back. Similarly, there's no reason to assume that Sylvanas is aware of Calia. Certainly if she is she's an Arthas-like figure to Sylvanas, threatening her on a basic level that I doubt she'd be able to act with as much restraint towards.

Possible. I'm not really sure of his status myself, and I think both the narrative and the cutscene are designed to make it more open-ended. I think it's possible he's partially compromised but aware of it, and that Calia will "cure" him somehow (possibly also making him like her in some fashion). Where they go from there I can't say - I'm not a big proponent of the idea of Calia playing a major role going forward, both because I don't really like her character as a "Light-blessed" undead and I can't think of a good way to really play that into the ongoing story.

[Friendlyimmolation]

To be fair if the Valkyr can raise someone with or without free will, why doesn’t Sylvanas just snap her fingers and have the Valkyr take over Derek as some auto pilot if she wants her plan to work, unless she never counted on it working and just wanted to see who would betray her.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Another thing I don't get is how are the players supposed to feel about this? I am not saying people should side with Baine or anything but can we really expect Horde players to be proud and happy if Derek kills Jaina or Katherine? If this plot succeeds all it does is yet again stoke the Alliance player's desire to see the Horde destroyed while knowing full well that it will never happen. Who is this a win for? Sylvanas fanbois?

- - - Updated - - -



Honestly such gambits only have a point when you can juggle dozens of them at once. Sylvanas cannot do that simply because Blizzard would never invent the screen time to present them (and them appearing with no foreshadowing will not be seen as a successful gambit but rather as an asspull.

- - - Updated - - -



Is rooting Baine out really to her advantage though? As we have seen, all Horde leaders but two were appalled at this. So even that plot seems to have backfired.

It’s a win for Horde players that want a taste of blood after poor Rasta died.

Also If poor little Baine is in prison, he can’t interfere with The next plan.

[Thage]

So the question I pose to you is this, why torture Derek instead of manipulating him?

Heroic Mode: You can't use 'because it's evil', though it's true.
Mythic Mode: You can't use 'bad writing', though it's also true.

Catharsis. Jaina's been a pretty big thorn in Sylvanas's side of late, and Sylvie's always had a bit of a petty streak to her. Reference her intention to torture Arthas and indulge in some villainous monologuing when she thinks she's got him dead to rights after paralyzing him in the Frozen Throne Scourge campaign and, later, intentionally getting under Lor'themar's skin because he wasn't backing her like she expected (first by threatening to withdraw her forces from the Ghostlands unless he sends troops to support her in Northrend, despite the blood elves still reeling from Kael's betrayal and the losses sustained recapturing Quel'Danas and the Sunwell, and again by taunting him about raising blood elves into undeath at the siege of Orgrimmar for his earlier failure to support her when she objected to Garrosh's plans and looked to him for backup).

Side note, Lillian didn't join until coming out of nowhere in BFA, and her chatter suggests she may have been pressed into service or is doing so to keep out of the crosshairs, ditto Garona (another famously-neutral rogue who only nominally cooperates with the Horde when it fits her personal agenda). I can't explain most of the others (Zeliek at least had a pretty solid reason, doing so as a tradeoff for his family's safety) without failing Heroic/Mythic mode.

[Friendlyimmolation]

But you are not tasting that blood. You did nothing to achieve that.

The Horde players fished up soggy Derek, and a win on the side of Sylvanas would be a win for those who want her to win anyways.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So it has nothing to do with you as a player. It's just about Sylvanas.

Which some players wish to see win, and treat her victories as Horde victories, especially if they made said plan possible with the retrieval of Derek’s corpse. So yes, they did work in part for that potential scenario to come to fruition.

So how exactly would it not involve the player at all?

[Bigby]

Elaborate? How would you have written it differently?

By not having him being raised at all. Guy was killed by dragonfire in the middle of the ocean twenty years ago. At the absolute best, there might be a skull or ribcage somewhere in the Great Sea.

[Magnagarde]

To make someone "honorable" from within the Horde free him and deliver him to the Alliance because they can't keep it going without doing anything. That's my first guess. Maybe I'm giving Sylvanas too much credit.

[Super Dickmann]

Catharsis. Jaina's been a pretty big thorn in Sylvanas's side of late, and Sylvie's always had a bit of a petty streak to her. Reference her intention to torture Arthas and indulge in some villainous monologuing when she thinks she's got him dead to rights after paralyzing him in the Frozen Throne Scourge campaign and, later, intentionally getting under Lor'themar's skin because he wasn't backing her like she expected (first by threatening to withdraw her forces from the Ghostlands unless he sends troops to support her in Northrend, despite the blood elves still reeling from Kael's betrayal and the losses sustained recapturing Quel'Danas and the Sunwell, and again by taunting him about raising blood elves into undeath at the siege of Orgrimmar for his earlier failure to support her when she objected to Garrosh's plans and looked to him for backup).

While this is mostly just a variant of being evil, this along with the explanation that it was a bid to break his spirit while drawing those of little faith out are the ones most convincing I think if we maintain heroic and mythic mode. The only thing I'm dubious about is whether Sylvanas is that pissed about Jaina. Sure, Jaina foiled her plan, but she's never shown to have much animus about it on a personal level. The Lor'themar thing is a bit of an exaggaration, since that was less spite and more singlemindedness. She bailed Lor'themar out and now she would get his support for her life's purpose whether he liked it or not. It's also her distance from the living being emphasized. Good story, that one.

Where it regards Lilian, she was already a tacit ally in Cataclysm, torching Scarlet camps where Sylvanas shows up later. That and she has bought into the Forsaken view of rejection and helps Forsaken acclimatize in BFA, even if she doesn't like Sylvanas personally.

@Nymrohd

We collected Derek and killing Jaina advances Horde war goals. It's not gonna happen, but that's a win after she won against us without a scratch so many times. It'd also have been a direct achievement of the Horde war campaign which has otherwise accomplished fuck all. Not really the kind of win that's ideal, but I'll take something over nothing.

@Aucald

We talk about Calia as if she's a given, but most people playing the game have no idea who she is and Blizzard have at least been trying not to make supplemental materials essential. Derek as introduction to Calia seems pretty well telegraphed. The only questions is which faction she'll be focused on. Given that only Alliance get to see him sent to Calia but Horde has seen more of Derek and he's told he can't go home it could go either way.

[horbindr]

who says torture was the objective? it could just be some magical mind control that just happens to hurt. which someone like sylvanas would be apathetic towards, but someone like baine wouldn't.

but personally i think the whole thing was just to bait baine or another leader into betraying sylvanas, so they can set up the horde revolutionary faction better later on. since were ripping off MoP story anyways.

or who knows maybe we get lucky and we have to fight undead zombie baine sometime soon.

[Aucald]

We talk about Calia as if she's a given, but most people playing the game have no idea who she is and Blizzard have at least been trying not to make supplemental materials essential. Derek as introduction to Calia seems pretty well telegraphed. The only questions is which faction she'll be focused on. Given that only Alliance get to see him sent to Calia but Horde has seen more of Derek and he's told he can't go home it could go either way.

While I think Jaina plans on getting Derek to Calia as well, it's left open-ended as to who or what Jaina is referring to when she alludes to knowing someone who can help. It could be Calia but it could also be Anduin or perhaps even Alonsus Faol - either of whom could be a conduit to a Calia eventually. The answer would really be down as to whether or not Derek remains pertinent to the plot of BfA or if he's moved into the cooler as a plot point for some future story-arc.

[Zandalariprelate]

Because that was in the script and blizzard wanted this to be a major catalyst of Sylvanas indirectly attacking the horde

[Jastall]

I'm not kidding, for what purpose? Let's recount some of our previous feats of convincing people to switch sides and join the Forsaken voluntarily:

1. A guard captain who's friends we blew up in front of her eyes
2. An admiral who's grave we robbed but switched sides off-screen with no issue, collected from the same place as Derek
3. A special Scarlet agent, the most anti-undead group out there, trained to kill undead
4. The people we committed genocide on because one bitch gave our glorious leader lip
And countless nameless henchmen we killed before they joined.

Clearly Derek was told what happened to Daelin, since he brings it up to Jaina afterwards as part of the 'lies' the Horde told him that Baine dispelled and it's not like being anti-Jaina or Katherine didn't have a massive Kul Tiran segment, including among the Kul Tirans we already raised. He might have been a bit more amenable to convincing without frying him with beams, something we didn't need for people we'd wronged far less.

So the question I pose to you is this, why torture Derek instead of manipulating him?

Heroic Mode: You can't use 'because it's evil', though it's true.
Mythic Mode: You can't use 'bad writing', though it's also true.

I mean the instant, foolproof way that damn near every risen Forsaken become Sylvanas cultists because muh sad feelings is completely stupid in and of itself no matter how canon it is, thus I'd argue the torture and conditioning actually make slightly more sense. Sylvanas needs him to succeed, he's not some random sack of bones with a sword in his hand, but her current master plan (leaving aside how even him somehow managing to murder Jaina would magically make the Kul Tirans pull out of the war). She's not taking the slightest chance and wants a right and proper Manchurian candidate rather than leave things up to his sad feelings.

Aside from that, she's been betrayed by a number of named Forsaken before which might have made her more cautious, at least this one time given that her tool has an emotional connection with her mark.

Of course, I fail Mythic mode because the primary reason is bad writing, everything about Derek is. For one, he shouldn't even exist, he was bathed in dragonfire then spent decades at the bottom of the ocean, surrounded by very carnivorous fish who attack plate armored Orcs on sight (leaving aside how people in plate armor can swim). Any three of these things shouldn't have left a corpse to raise, let alone in the almost pristine condition he's in.

For two, Sylvanas is being incredibly stupid about the entire thing. She starts talking about, then does the raising in broad daylight, and barely even hides him when transgressing the Forsaken's one sacred law with him as the subject. Now the saving grace for that is for all these shenanigans to be a play so as to trap Zelling and Baine, but even then that leaves the idiocy of her thinking some idiot with a knife stands a chance of being unquestionably accepted by his family (running counter to her own belief on human/undead relations) without being screened and can actually manage to kill anyone important in the Alliance.

For three, the Horde's reaction is retarded. Well in and of itself it's not that bad, Sylvanas is still transgressing a taboo and all. But Derek being the catalyst to everyone realizing that, lo and behold, the character that has been defined by being a ruthless asshole for 15 years is, indeed, a ruthless asshole? Perish the thought. One would think plague bombing her own soldiers and raising their still steaming corpses into undead would give them a clue, but alas, Baine only cared about Saurfang and everyone else raised no fuss at all. So it's mostly retarded in the face of previous, also bad writing.

[Leodok]

So the question I pose to you is this, why torture Derek instead of manipulating him?

Manipulation, convincing or just hoping the person will follow you for no reason ends up failing with even the smallest incentive for the person to betray you (Sylvanas' reason), besides how ridiculous it nearly always seems to players (Blizzard's reason).

[Florena]

I mean the instant, foolproof way that damn near every risen Forsaken become Sylvanas cultists because muh sad feelings is completely stupid in and of itself no matter how canon it is, thus I'd argue the torture and conditioning actually make slightly more sense. Sylvanas needs him to succeed, he's not some random sack of bones with a sword in his hand, but her current master plan (leaving aside how even him somehow managing to murder Jaina would magically make the Kul Tirans pull out of the war). She's not taking the slightest chance and wants a right and proper Manchurian candidate rather than leave things up to his sad feelings.

Aside from that, she's been betrayed by a number of named Forsaken before which might have made her more cautious, at least this one time given that her tool has an emotional connection with her mark.

Of course, I fail Mythic mode because the primary reason is bad writing, everything about Derek is. For one, he shouldn't even exist, he was bathed in dragonfire then spent decades at the bottom of the ocean, surrounded by very carnivorous fish who attack plate armored Orcs on sight (leaving aside how people in plate armor can swim). Any three of these things shouldn't have left a corpse to raise, let alone in the almost pristine condition he's in.

For two, Sylvanas is being incredibly stupid about the entire thing. She starts talking about, then does the raising in broad daylight, and barely even hides him when transgressing the Forsaken's one sacred law with him as the subject. Now the saving grace for that is for all these shenanigans to be a play so as to trap Zelling and Baine, but even then that leaves the idiocy of her thinking some idiot with a knife stands a chance of being unquestionably accepted by his family (running counter to her own belief on human/undead relations) without being screened and can actually manage to kill anyone important in the Alliance.

For three, the Horde's reaction is retarded. Well in and of itself it's not that bad, Sylvanas is still transgressing a taboo and all. But Derek being the catalyst to everyone realizing that, lo and behold, the character that has been defined by being a ruthless asshole for 15 years is, indeed, a ruthless asshole? Perish the thought. One would think plague bombing her own soldiers and raising their still steaming corpses into undead would give them a clue, but alas, Baine only cared about Saurfang and everyone else raised no fuss at all. So it's mostly retarded in the face of previous, also bad writing.

I can see why Sylvanas, having been betrayed before by forsaken she's raised with plans in mind, would opt for brainwashing but it's baffling to me that people like Baine would twiddle their thumbs about the burning of Teldrassil but THIS is a step too far...

[Ironhorn]

i mean, she RUSHED ARTHAS and his endless army of the undead.

She did not rush Arthas. If you listen carefully to the cinematic you can hear him ride up on her and stab her.

[Friendlyimmolation]

because in addition to being evil, sylvanas is also chronically arrogant and suicidally stupid.
i mean, she RUSHED ARTHAS and his endless army of the undead.

lets face it, her employment as ranger general probably came the way it ended, with her getting on her knees asap.

If you bothered to read Arthas rise of the lich king, you’d know her swords were the only weapons she had left at the end, she was out of arrows and surrounded by undead who only did not kill her because Arthas wanted to do it himself

[Powerogue]

Sylvanas: