Second war Horde vs Third war Scourge

[Oneirophobia]

Why does everyone think Arthas is so incredibly powerful? Gul'Dan will destroy him

It may be because Arthas one shotted all the heroes with no effort and revealed he was just toying with us, whereas Gul'dan gets close to losing several times and requires another dose of KJ-brand power up to continue fighting, and still losing in the end. However we can attribute that to the artifact weapons. I remember reading something about Lei Shen being able to stomp Arthas if the two ever met.

I think a fair amount of bosses we fought in Legion were probably stronger than Arthas. I assume Helya and Odyn were two of the non-demon kind, maybe Xavius as well. Definitely Kil'jaeden, Aggramar, and Argus.

[Terongor]

Exactly what Arthas and Kel'thuzad succeed in doing in Reign of Chaos.

Demons (Legion) were behind both of those forces so I'm assuming they wouldn't side with any of those in this specific event.

- - - Updated - - -



They could try to pull it out, the ritual Illidan used something from the Tomb of Sargeras with the guidance of Gul'dan's Skull to perform that ritual, so it's completely possible.

What makes me wonder if Malfurion would try to stop them, I mean simply destroying the Frozen Throne has devastating consequences to Azeroth.

My point is Scourge has way to much plot armor to lose, if they destroy the Frozen Throne, Azeroth is doom and the Scourge will run rampart and destroy everything, if they managed to kill the Lich King the same thing.

Moving a War Campaign across Azeroth to Northrend and replacing the Lich King looks like the only possible way to victory, and even so, I doubt they could pull it out like both the Horde and Alliance of our time, with basically everybody else and with the power of friendship did.

Bear in mind that I'm considering Scourge at its peak, including Sylvanas, the Forsaken, the Fallen Kingdom of Lordaeron, the Nerubian and the troops that possible never died in Archimond attempt to destroy Nordrassil.

Even the full might of the Horde that came across the Dark Portal couldn't handle it alone.

- - - Updated - - -

Now if you added together with the old Horde and Garrosh's Iron Horde I think the could pull it out.

Garrosh was a very successful at his war campaign against the Scourge, he basically was a front man against the Lich King in Icecrown Citadel and had the knowledge of modern weaponry that could hugely benefit the Horde war tactics to handle the massive amount of Undead.

They would still need the demonroids to win but it would be a fair victory.

They are comparing third war scourge which isn't as strong as it was in wotlk. They don't have san'lyan, sapphiron, sindragossa, vrykuls, not so many red dragons nor val'kyrs nor the numbers they gained from holding lordaeron for years. Also it would also depend on what moment like at the start or at the end of it.

Also I do agree there scourge would will in most cases, but out of any single mortal force second war horde had to best chances. Also the original poster said that gul'dan and his forces would be alive and helping the horde meaning hypothetical situation gul'dan learning a way to use dragon soul to its fullest and how ner'zhul talked in TFT which would be about the same power here. He said if he should die scourge would be undone at that point. Power of 4 aspects could probably rival the power from the eye of sargeras easily which were inside dragon soul as such gul'dan casting same kind of ritual to frozen throne( probably stronger) with dragon soul. Ita doubtful Ner'zhul at that couldn't defend himself from it.

So there are ways as scourge wasn't at its strongest, but on most cases scourge would win. Also no outside forces only forces like malfurion as it that was the case it would debend on with either one the legion would side with.

[darkoms]

Nope, even thrall stronger shaman of that time imbued with earth aspect power cant control the power of a real dragon soul, you are saying a weak gul dan or a random orc(necros) Will be able to control It?, Second war dragon soul was a weak, depleted and crack down dragon soul, It can only "control" a "single" dragon, red dragons helped the horde so the horde dont hurt their Queen, stop with your headcannon Lore , its common knowledge that the dragon soul of the second war was a shadow of the real one, thats one the reason we go back im time and get the "real" one and not a "fake"

PD: for control i mean subdue, horde never had full control of alextrazsa will

If the Dragon Soul was weak and exhausted in the Second War, then why after its destruction did ALL their powers return to the Aspects? What makes you think that she was exhausted? I never stumbled upon such information, could you give me a quote?

- - - Updated - - -

It may be because Arthas one shotted all the heroes with no effort and revealed he was just toying with us, whereas Gul'dan gets close to losing several times and requires another dose of KJ-brand power up to continue fighting, and still losing in the end. However we can attribute that to the artifact weapons. I remember reading something about Lei Shen being able to stomp Arthas if the two ever met.

I think a fair amount of bosses we fought in Legion were probably stronger than Arthas. I assume Helya and Odyn were two of the non-demon kind, maybe Xavius as well. Definitely Kil'jaeden, Aggramar, and Argus.

We're talking about Arthas the Death Knight, not the Lich King. And the heroes of the Times of the Wrath of the Lich King are much weaker than the heroes of the times of the Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

They are comparing third war scourge which isn't as strong as it was in wotlk. They don't have san'lyan, sapphiron, sindragossa, vrykuls, not so many red dragons nor val'kyrs nor the numbers they gained from holding lordaeron for years. Also it would also depend on what moment like at the start or at the end of it.

Also I do agree there scourge would will in most cases, but out of any single mortal force second war horde had to best chances. Also the original poster said that gul'dan and his forces would be alive and helping the horde meaning hypothetical situation gul'dan learning a way to use dragon soul to its fullest and how ner'zhul talked in TFT which would be about the same power here. He said if he should die scourge would be undone at that point. Power of 4 aspects could probably rival the power from the eye of sargeras easily which were inside dragon soul as such gul'dan casting same kind of ritual to frozen throne( probably stronger) with dragon soul. Ita doubtful Ner'zhul at that couldn't defend himself from it.

So there are ways as scourge wasn't at its strongest, but on most cases scourge would win. Also no outside forces only forces like malfurion as it that was the case it would debend on with either one the legion would side with.

I agree, Gul'dan with the Dragon Soul can turn the situation around in favor of the Horde. And since you mentioned the Eye of Sargeras, it is possible that Guldan could convince Orgrim to give him more warriors (or even dragons) to retrieve the Eye from the Tomb. Against these two powerful artifacts (although one Dragon Soul would suffice if Gul'dan could use all her power), the Scourge would not have a chance.

[Oneirophobia]

We're talking about Arthas the Death Knight, not the Lich King.

Are we? Why?

[Terongor]

Are we? Why?

Original poster said third war scourge and frozen throne is the aftermath of third war. Third war ended to the fall of archimonde in hyjal and arthas was just a DK during third war.

Also twitter post from dave kosak who was the leader of wow team when he said Lei Shen 1v1 would beat arthas LK. You know the boss from ToT who players defeated in MoP without anyone dying to him and without the help from any characters.

[Zandalariprelate]

Well Ner'zhul only did that after Archimond failed to bang the tree, anyhow whoever gets the legion support wins.

Dreadlords are a powerful weapon, the massive demons like Infernals would crush armies (orcs or undead don't matter). It would be unfair tbh.

True, I think the real thing that could change the battle for the horde in case they can't use demons, maybe Gul'Dan since he was his apprentince and probably the only one that could match Ner'zhul or Arthas

[Houle]

Original poster said third war scourge and frozen throne is the aftermath of third war. Third war ended to the fall of archimonde in hyjal and arthas was just a DK during third war.

Also twitter post from dave kosak who was the leader of wow team when he said Lei Shen 1v1 would beat arthas LK. You know the boss from ToT who players defeated in MoP without anyone dying to him and without the help from any characters.

Lei Shen was far from his real power when we killed him. He got just revived and was building his forces again, we would've stood no chance against Lei Shen in his prime (which is who Kosak meant in his twitter post)

Now, about the battle, scourge roflstomps. people kinda underestimate how OP the scourge was/is, it was literally made to do the job the horde failed at.

[Syegfryed]

A force of dragonriders plus DW, Gul'dan and the first generation of Death knights with Gorefiend, who were also necromancers, the orchish army, the amani empire, plus some ogres and goblins >>>> the scourge

[tromage2]

Horde, they had the red dragonflight under their controle.
First wave Deathknights, Warlocks, Ogres, Forest trolls, Goblin engines.

2e war Horde might have been the strongest army ever in history till the big betraying of Gul'dan.

[Terongor]

Lei Shen was far from his real power when we killed him. He got just revived and was building his forces again, we would've stood no chance against Lei Shen in his prime (which is who Kosak meant in his twitter post)

Now, about the battle, scourge roflstomps. people kinda underestimate how OP the scourge was/is, it was literally made to do the job the horde failed at.

At his prime it took lei shen 30 days and 30 nights to defeat xuen who is according to chronicles a wild god and on many instances malorne and cenarius have being said to be strongest and the second strongest wild gods, putting both of them above xuen and lk and we have defeated alot stronger individuals without any help after wotlk. For example cho'gall who mastered arcade magic on gorian level, was strongest feo user from shadow council after gul'dan and one of the most strongesr void users ever with him becoming avatar of c'thun and him having weapon (I quote here)"imbued with power of the Old Gods" and al'akir while being one of the original elemental lords ranks above wild gods.

It was made to the job as legion said horde was strong enough but failed because of the in fighting. Though I do agree scourge would win in most cases there would be a possibility for horde win as scourge wouls lack val'ky, vrykul, san'lyan, sapphiron, sindragosa, alexandros mograine and the numbers they gained from holding plaguelands for years.