With such strong racial identities, are the factions in lore even relevant?

[ravenmoon]

I'm wondering at this stage if all the lore focus on factions is not only unnecessary but detrimental.

Sure, the game system needs 2 factions to be there, and they can exist, but they don't have to be the centre or even play a role in the narrative - because the races have such powerful and deep lore, it often seems pointless and even silly to keep roping all the main races into this one faction purpose.

Mapuche of their individuality, flavor, potential is often stifled just to fit this mould, not to mention how many characters have been thrown out of whack to fit the narrative.



In my opinion, the factions can and should exist, but should take a backseat. It should be more for die hard sections in each of the races, or when one race is aggravated by another, then players from another race can join in because the troubled race is in a faction.

But the main story lines and themes I think they should play no role. It shouldn't be Varian or Vol'jin, Anduin or Stovanas, Thrall or Garrosh making the decisions for everything that's going on that involves the playable races.

There is so much more we could do if the narrative was driven by the races and not the faction.

Sometimes the blood elves would be helping the draenei for the expansion, and even if horde players can't quest with draenei and they are in opposite factions, that is hardly relevant, because the faction doesn't dominate or steer these races.


In fact what it should be is that some races like humans and orcs should be all about the faction in the narrative, And while others could hardly care if the humans are pissed off that they are helping the blood elves for e.g..

It's one thing g if the draenei are helping the orcs, but because faction is not the world to races like Dranei and blood elf, they are guided by their conviction and are just friendly with the humans' alliance, they shouldn't be dominated by it.

The races are so interesting and have such variety, to keep cutting them to one cloth to fit the alliance or horde seems detrimental and unnecessary. Let the story focus on the races instead, and the factions be something mainly to organise the players and facilitate pvp.

I think people would be much more engaged. And they shouldmlaunch racial campaigns where you can work yptiwards building your race and they expand and write more individual lore for the races alongside the main story line, like an improved version of the class campaigns of legion

[Raikh]

The problem here is not the factions themselves. The factions are one of the foundations of Warcraft and despite them they managed to create those races and the world which offers the potential to so many intricacies.

The problem is that there is no foundation for the factions anymore. They have resolved their conflcit over and over, originally WC3, then they divide and reunite at every possible turn, only to suddenly go to war again for no good reason.

They want to go with the epic grand happy ending fanatsy story where all strife is put aside against a greater evil to defeat it and create a better world of good. But they pulled this so often now, only to undo it again, that there is no integrity to the concept anymore and no respect for the continuity of the whole franchise.

There is barely any writing creativity left. They are repeating MoP with a new poor color scheme for the sake of repeating it. They do not risk actually evolving the story to something, nor do they are willing to fuel an ongoing war, because they always need that big conclusion every god damn expac.

And thats what everytihng in this game is suffering from. They even went as far with BfA to show alliance and horde players different versions of the same evnt. Be it manipulated dialogue or even compeltely different scenes. They are basically using some sort of meta propaganda as a means to convince players of the poor reasoning for the current conflict in BfA.

The Races could floruish even within the factions if they actually would write their shit properly, the races ar ejsut one thing that suffer from it. I mean there is only so much space anyway, can't really progress anything but the main plot if you repeat it every expac with a differently colored world destroying evil and another cheap "misunderstanding" or lore character gone badhsit insane to keep the faction conflict going.

[Leodok]

The Horde is, the Alliance isn't.

The two began as just being "evil" and "good" (respectively). While the Alliance was able to mostly just keep the "we're the good guys" identity, the Horde has had to change theirs to stop being the villains. And so we got Thrall's honorable horde of misfits trying to find their place. Garrosh shook that notion by embracing the war-like, conquering nature the Horde initially had (though denying fel corruption and the like). Vol'jin brought Thrall's way back with some small changes in how he sees it. Sylvannas throws any respect for the old Horde ways out of the window, and Saurfang will probably bring those back, with his own flavor. Main thing is: it has an identity, and it matters to a lot of the characters involved. They are able to say "that's not what the Horde is about" for reasons fundamentally Horde. The Alliance lacks any of that, their identity is still just being the good guys and it's rarely ever challenged.

It would be absolutely great to get more focus on individual races, though.

[ravenmoon]

The Horde is, the Alliance isn't.

The two began as just being "evil" and "good" (respectively). While the Alliance was able to mostly just keep the "we're the good guys" identity, the Horde has had to change theirs to stop being the villains. And so we got Thrall's honorable horde of misfits trying to find their place. Garrosh shook that notion by embracing the war-like, conquering nature the Horde initially had (though denying fel corruption and the like). Vol'jin brought Thrall's way back with some small changes in how he sees it. Sylvannas throws any respect for the old Horde ways out of the window, and Saurfang will probably bring those back, with his own flavor. Main thing is: it has an identity, and it matters to a lot of the characters involved. They are able to say "that's not what the Horde is about" for reasons fundamentally Horde. The Alliance lacks any of that, their identity is still just being the good guys and it's rarely ever challenged.

It would be absolutely great to get more focus on individual races, though.

That's true, but while we can still have the horde and the alliance.. do we have to have EVERY race allied to them to be dominated by them? Can't races like blood elves/forsaken, night elves/draenei, pretty much be independent and just loose allies.. there are so many interesting races... it just feels terribly forced for the Alliance king to rule all the alliance races, or the horde warchief to command all the races in the horde.

It seems that things could be more interesting if they weren't all locked as some sort of 1- empire. Maybe they were like that in classic, but the issue may be that blizzard didn't present the races as such. When they kicked off the narrative again in TBC, all of a sudden, joining the horde was like pledging your allegiance a s a vassal state or something.

[Nathasil]

The Horde is, the Alliance isn't.

The two began as just being "evil" and "good" (respectively). While the Alliance was able to mostly just keep the "we're the good guys" identity, the Horde has had to change theirs to stop being the villains. And so we got Thrall's honorable horde of misfits trying to find their place. Garrosh shook that notion by embracing the war-like, conquering nature the Horde initially had (though denying fel corruption and the like). Vol'jin brought Thrall's way back with some small changes in how he sees it. Sylvannas throws any respect for the old Horde ways out of the window, and Saurfang will probably bring those back, with his own flavor. Main thing is: it has an identity, and it matters to a lot of the characters involved. They are able to say "that's not what the Horde is about" for reasons fundamentally Horde. The Alliance lacks any of that, their identity is still just being the good guys and it's rarely ever challenged.

It would be absolutely great to get more focus on individual races, though.

What? So your point is because the Horde never actually had an identity and is comprised of races that SHOULD hate each other (Elves, Trolls) and have absolutely NOTHING in common (Undead, Tauren) while the Alliance always kept true to its original motive...the Horde has a strong identity and the Alliance has not....?

Either you failed to explain your point or this was just the greatest mental gymnastics to expain why you prefer playing Horde over Alliance while not really having a good reason why.

Even Blizzard said that the greatest challenge with the BFA story for them was to go back and define what "being Horde" actually means, as they feel despite all the shifts ans shakeups...the Horde stands for absolutely NOTHING. The only thing that defines the Horde is "we are not the Alliance!!!!!".

[Feanoro]

Even Blizzard said that the greatest challenge with the BFA story for them was to go back and define what "being Horde" actually means, as they feel despite all the shifts ans shakeups...the Horde stands for absolutely NOTHING. The only thing that defines the Horde is "we are not the Alliance!!!!!".

Slight correction, what defines the Horde is refusal to accept responsibility for their own choices and failures, then attacking anything that moves under the banner of blaming them.

[Doffen]

No, they stopped being relevant after MoP. They did that story well. They should have just focused on fighting the greater evil after that, like the Legion. To just forget that and go to a faction war was just silly. This expansion could easily be about Queen Aszhara with the Naga, and N'zoth with some additional old god story. That would be enough. We had Deathwing in Cataclysm, bet that just as many had heard about him as Azshara, not to mention some old god, the last one on Azeroth.

So there was no need for a faction war in this expansion. It could be named Battle for Azeroth without that. The conclusion for this expansion better be that everyone on Azeroth understand that they should stop fighting each other and focus on the big bad evils, shadow and even the light. If I get what I want and think is the future for WoW, I will forgive them for this lackluster story.

[Queen of Hamsters]

If BfA doesn't end with the factions finally settling down and realizing that co-operation is better in the face of great evil, I'll be mighty letdown.
I want muh mercenary system in PVE, dammit!

[Maljinwo]

I hope that the Heritage Armor system is just the first step in race being more important than faction in the future

[Zandalariprelate]

Considering there are currently 10 races for both factions and 1 neutral pandaren(also big chance for others 4 races to join more later), I can't see blizzard will be able to do a questline for every one of them, they already told the class halls took a lot of time and money which is why they were ditched at the last moment in Argus. The next step of the focus in the next expansions probably will be around cosmic forces or the next flavor of the mounth but beyond that, its highly unliked we will see race focus

[Leodok]

That's true, but while we can still have the horde and the alliance.. do we have to have EVERY race allied to them to be dominated by them? Can't races like blood elves/forsaken, night elves/draenei, pretty much be independent and just loose allies.. there are so many interesting races... it just feels terribly forced for the Alliance king to rule all the alliance races, or the horde warchief to command all the races in the horde.

Oh, I agree, mostly. I don't think it should only be horde-horde-horde, focus on the individual races is very important. Just saying the Horde does have a point in existing and can be interesting pretty often.

What? So your point is because the Horde never actually had an identity and is comprised of races that SHOULD hate each other (Elves, Trolls) and have absolutely NOTHING in common (Undead, Tauren) while the Alliance always kept true to its original motive...the Horde has a strong identity and the Alliance has not....?

Uh... no? That's not what I said at all.

Both factions had very simple and weak original motives. One is good, one is bad, and that was mostly it. The Alliance never had to change that, and so they are still basicaly just the good guys to this day.

The Horde, on the other hand, had to change. Blizzard had to create a new identity for them, and they did. Later, that identity kept being challenged and developed, because it truly matters to the characters. Vol'jin, Thrall, Saurfang, Garrosh, Eitrigg, Baine and others were willing to fight, betray, kill friends and almost-family for their views on what the Horde is or should be.

Now moving on to the Alliance, we see almost nothing of that. Anduin, Jaina, Genn, Varian, Velen, Malfurion and Tyrande mostly disagree only on "should we kill the Horde or make peace with them?". There is no fighting, arguing or discussing about what the Alliance is, what it means and what it represents. They're good, I guess, and that's about it. No one challenges that.

Alliance identity is being good, in a setting with multiple good groups and an enemy faction that is, in the end, supposed to be good as well.

[Jastall]

Oh, I agree, mostly. I don't think it should only be horde-horde-horde, focus on the individual races is very important. Just saying the Horde does have a point in existing and can be interesting pretty often.



Uh... no? That's not what I said at all.

Both factions had very simple and weak original motives. One is good, one is bad, and that was mostly it. The Alliance never had to change that, and so they are still basicaly just the good guys to this day.

The Horde, on the other hand, had to change. Blizzard had to create a new identity for them, and they did. Later, that identity kept being challenged and developed, because it truly matters to the characters. Vol'jin, Thrall, Saurfang, Garrosh, Eitrigg, Baine and others were willing to fight, betray, kill friends and almost-family for their views on what the Horde is or should be.

Now moving on to the Alliance, we see almost nothing of that. Anduin, Jaina, Genn, Varian, Velen, Malfurion and Tyrande mostly disagree only on "should we kill the Horde or make peace with them?". There is no fighting, arguing or discussing about what the Alliance is, what it means and what it represents. They're good, I guess, and that's about it. No one challenges that.

Alliance identity is being good, in a setting with multiple good groups and an enemy faction that is, in the end, supposed to be good as well.

While the Alliance could use some shake-ups and deeper questioning, the Horde suffers from the exact opposite problem. At this point it's gone through so many versions that the only constant between them all is "not the Alliance", and even that is questionable sometimes. Blizzard has been pathologically unable to actually ground them with a consistent theme. Is it the crazed band of demon-worshiping savages of WC1? The slightly less crazed band of demon-manipulated savages of WC2? The noblesavage shenanigans of WC3? The pragmatic international power making a name for itself of vanilla to Wrath? The warmongering bunch of meatheads of Cata? The racist douchebags of Mists? The... whatever the hell Vol'jin was supposed to make us before he got killed? Sylvanas's willing slaves in her war to save her own skin?

What's it going to be next xpack? How many times should we roll the dice until enough is fucking enough and the Horde finally gets its identity bullshit sorted out so the faction story can be about something else.

[Techno-Druid]

The faction war should have ended with MoP. BfA's storyline is pretty redundant and even the conflicts of Legion (i.e. Forsaken vs Worgen/Genn vs Sylvanas) are swept under the rug for a bunch of contrived conflicts created almost entirely for the purpose of getting Zandalar/Kul Tiras to join the factions or play on nostalgia.

[Syegfryed]

i can't see any "strong racial identities" atm, it actually worse than before

[KSM899]

Factions are built around ideologies and mutual benefits, is this present on current WoW?

[Rafoel]

The main problem is people not indetifying with their factions.

The writers are at fault for that. At the beginning there was supposed to be an inseparable barrier between factions. Players couldn't even have characters from both fations on same realm. You couldn't talk between factions. Some places were neutral, but ensured this neutraltiy by force, not Sanctuary mechanics. All humans knew that this orc over there would gladly kill them, if not for 20 goblin guards around. Factions started in different places, leveled in different places, gathered in different places, and any truce was for mutual gain, and only temporary.

But know, we get cinematics of horde leaders talking to alliance leaders peacefully. Factions uniting every few months. Conflicts being forced by individuals who seem to be hated or mistrusted ESPECIALLY within their own faction. Races that seem to have more common with opposite faction than their own. The very foundation of horde sticking together BECAUSE they won't be accepted anywhere else being destroyed. In gameplay - mercenary mode. Rated BGs with factions swapping. Already voices are raising to allow cross-faction RAIDING. Because, at that point, what's the point of factions?


The results are visible. MUH TAUREN DRUID THIS, MUH TAUREN DRUID THAT. My BE would join the alliance if gameplay allowed it. My orc only accepts orc horde, non-orc horde bad, me unite with alliance to smash the bad horde. I hElPeD nIgHtBoRnE iN sUrAmAr WhY dId tHeY jOiN tHe HoRdE iNsTeAd

[Super Dickmann]

As I said in the previous one of these, the fantasy of the post-faction expansion is that every race will have their own story. This isn't resource efficient. They won't go from having to do two stories to doing twenty. No, what will happen is that there'll be only one story for everyone and that story will be us helping Anduin in space. Thus the factions must remain.

What must end however is the Horde (and it is always the Horde) losing its 'honor' and having to rediscover it by culling its cast and homogenizing its races. It was a shit story in Mists, it's a shit story now.

The notion that 'oh, we should focus on bigger things', it's always been piffle. To not delve into real life, yes, the void lords are a much bigger threat than the local gnoll population, but if the gnolls burn your crops and eat your kids, you won't have the luxury of worrying about the inevitable entropy of existence. Similarly, irreconcilable territorial demands, races, cultures and resource issues are always going to be there regardless of what big bad is present as well.

This kumbaya bullshit has consistently produced the only kind of story worse than the "Horde overthrows Warchief" one, that being the one where either one of the factions follow along a character coded for the opposite faction or outright a part of it on a story they have nothing to do with. See, Forsaken and blood elves being sidelined from Arthas to instead make it about one of the original Alliance paladins and his rainbow coalition of human paladin roleplayers. Or the Alliance following Thrall around after he was not only the Warchief of the Horde, but also appointed the guy they're currently at war with solely because he was willing to go to war and Thrall wasn't. Or the entirety of Legion if you're Horde.

[ravenmoon]

The main problem is people not indetifying with their factions.

Whiles the rest of what you said is a reasonable explanation, and could be right, do you not think that part of the problem is when you keep making the faction the centre of everything and the most important thing.

Does it need to be to offer compelling stories? The races by themselves are each very interesting and complex enough, do they need the faction to constantly dominate everything? By doing so we find most of the races instead of fulfilling interesting paths or being true to their original character, they get shoe horned into what the faction wants.

The sort of loyalty tot he horde the blood elves have, to me just seems so out of character to what the Thalassian was originally. I could understand TBCs joining the horde out of convenience, but when the player is made to feel the iddntity oft he blood elf is first horde then second Thalassian, it diminishes that.

I say that fully bearing in mind what @Leodok said in response to me, that the horde does have a point in existing and can be interesting pretty often, same with the alliance. THat is also true. I just feel the faction doesn't have to be the centre of every action of the playable races.

Races should dominate most of the narrative in most of the expansions, then it is okay when things organically flow to some more faction wide intensity. BUt after WC3, I'm afraid an all out war has felt very very silly given how many of these races have fought together. in retrospect. What might have been a better approach would have been to have 2 more factions these guys could be at war with. So horde/alliance/night elves /forsaken are their own peoples and factions, might skirmish but not war, however they have some new players on the field that now form the new war with. I'm just thinking off the top of my head. That would have meant introducing a sleuth of new races. hehe.. Blood elf, dreanei, worgen, naga/naz'dorei -- with goblin and Pandaren being neutral races able to join everyone.