Is M+ a healthy or harmful addition to raiding

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I think M+ is great and helpful. Raiding has its place in challenge in a different way. M+ is something you can take as seriously as mythic raiding or as casually as you want but without lock out mechanics. I will say this though, I wish with new seasons of M+ they also released new loot into the 5 mans. In a lot of ways you can see that trinket in the first season of an expansion and quickly realize that yes.. I will have to grind for that... every seasons.

[Trustworthy]

Mythic + is a nice addition to the game and it CAN co-exist with raiding in my opinion. It just needs a lockout or diminishing returns on loot.

Some dude taking the second week off after a new season hits and then shows up decked in full Heroic gear when there has only been 2 lockouts is pretty lame.

[Barzotti]

Mythic + is a nice addition to the game and it CAN co-exist with raiding in my opinion. It just needs a lockout or diminishing returns on loot.

Some dude taking the second week off after a new season hits and then shows up decked in full Heroic gear when there has only been 2 lockouts is pretty lame.

This dude happened to grind, was committed and has been rewarded for his efforts, why is it "pretty lame"?

[sam86]

yes it is harmful to raids and even game in general, instead of farm few hcs to get to raiding, now they don't need to focus on new raids anymore, just pump up few 5 men dungeons and u get new mythic yay, let's do far less effort for same reward...

[Boricha]

The idea of M+ is great in itself. An infinitely scaling challenge that rewards better gear as you climb the ladder. The issues that have arisen around it are that of gear and esports. A lot of BiS gear comes from M+, which means you'll have the same item for the entire expansion and just looking for higher ilvl versions when they become available. This especially sucks when it's trinkets. I think M+ has also been much worse this expansion than Legion due to dungeons being designed around esports, which led to a lot more unsubstantial trash and bosses that are mechanically uninteresting until they reach high damage modifiers. M+ has also misled a lot of people into thinking that using all their game time to farm it is the best way to gear up, when in fact M+ is incredibly inefficient beyond the weekly 10, especially if your not running single armor type groups. They already had a work around for this in Legion by letting people farm M+ for AP as well, but for whatever reason they decided to take that away in BFA.

It's a good system that offers challenge for players looking for it, but I don't think Blizzard has utilized it well past release.

[tclphz]

If the rogue class shortens your dungeon run with shroud so massivly that the player performance/experience/r.io doesnt even matter, you dont need additional thoughts for this.

The same applies to protwarrior, if the tank is competing in DPS with the most broken DPS specs in dungeons WHILE breaks the damage numbers/boss kill times with on damage meter invisible spellreflects, you don't have to give it much thoughts either.

There is not really a choice for a group lead if the difference between specs is not a fraction but a multiple from the DPS number alone. Dungeon class balance it outright broken right now.

That's not completely correct. For example, on MDI, one group (I think it was Team Puolukka) shrouds and wipes in UR. Now they don't have a shroud and that was the entire run. Might be worth considering if you're not quite as good. Blood DKs can offer good utility on pulls with casters and imo, Monks has better survivability. If you're pushing timers, having some optimized group comp is great. I doubt many of us are there.

For the record, I was agreeing with your original point. People with lower keys as for way too much when they don't need to. And .io, MDI all contribute to this mess.

[Marrilaife]

This dude happened to grind, was committed and has been rewarded for his efforts, why is it "pretty lame"?

There is no pacing. You binge on m+ during second week of the season, get decked, stop having any reason to raid heroic, and if you don't raid mythic, then the only thing you have a reason to do is 1 m+ for the chest for the rest of the season. Well you could farm for titanforge, but most people won't as chances are fairly small of getting actually the item you want titanforged and not 5 different ones. Or you could literally unsub and wait for another season, since it will be gear reset anyway and you already know the dungeons and can present r.io score from past season.

For years, wow stood upon the concept you need to play week after week to be geared, and if you miss a patch, you will be given some catch ups, but usually to the lowest common denominator, and requiring lots of work for sub par gear, so you had to pay your dues if you were absent. This is gone. They removed most reasons to stay subbed long term unless you're top 10% of the playerbase (or even less).

Even in the days of badge gear you couldn't grind it in 1 week and get fully decked.

Obviously this design is welcome by people who crave instant gratification, who like to sub once per patch and then "save money" and unsub until next content update, tourists and cyclical players. However it contributes to the game feeling empty and apathetic outside of the "patch rush" when new batch of ilvl is thrown on the table.

Wow feels more and more like diablo than mmorpg, rng loot, scaling dungeons and seasonal resets - if you quit, don't worry, next season is clean slate again. It doesn't give incentive to stick to the game long term, therefore is anti-community-building. People come and go, but they don't stick.

[Tech614]

There is no pacing. You binge on m+ during second week of the season, get decked, stop having any reason to raid heroic, and if you don't raid mythic, then the only thing you have a reason to do is 1 m+ for the chest for the rest of the season. Well you could farm for titanforge, but most people won't as chances are fairly small of getting actually the item you want titanforged and not 5 different ones. Or you could literally unsub and wait for another season, since it will be gear reset anyway and you already know the dungeons and can present r.io score from past season.

For years, wow stood upon the concept you need to play week after week to be geared, and if you miss a patch, you will be given some catch ups, but usually to the lowest common denominator, and requiring lots of work for sub par gear, so you had to pay your dues if you were absent. This is gone. They removed most reasons to stay subbed long term unless you're top 10% of the playerbase (or even less).

Even in the days of badge gear you couldn't grind it in 1 week and get fully decked.

Obviously this design is welcome by people who crave instant gratification, who like to sub once per patch and then "save money" and unsub until next content update, tourists and cyclical players. However it contributes to the game feeling empty and apathetic outside of the "patch rush" when new batch of ilvl is thrown on the table.

Wow feels more and more like diablo than mmorpg, rng loot, scaling dungeons and seasonal resets - if you quit, don't worry, next season is clean slate again. It doesn't give incentive to stick to the game long term, therefore is anti-community-building. People come and go, but they don't stick.

You are complaining about people coming and going yet M+ actually gives you something to do in between tiers. People would come and go all the damn time before M+ was a thing after raid progression was done. If anything M+ gives people more incentive to stick around after they have cleared their raid difficulty of choice not the other way around lmao...

[Thylight]

I really love m+, and always enjoyed the small group content in a challenging environment (aka. Cata heroics, MoP and WoD Challenge mods, and now m+). Due to this, I have stopped raiding in mythic and I'm in the same boat as you - 9/9 HC and 1/9 M. I don't even bother coming to heroic farm as it won't drop upgrades and the content is boring.

Having said that, there is a problem with gear. As someone said, M+ should provide you alternative path for endgame which in my opinion is completely fine. Not everyone wants to raid, some, like me, prefer dungeons. However, for players like me, the ilvl cap stops at 400 (or 410 random weekly cache) and at that point you just expect WF/TF drops. For Mythic raiders, M+ is just another chore to gear in their free time outside of raids and expect same WF/TF drops to match their 415 raid pieces.

One of the option would be introducing completely seperate and viable for the content tier sets - one for raid, one for m+. But looking past to the tier sets, they used to provide alternative gameplay/rotation (even slight) to your class. So how would the Blizz solve it? Would be raid tier be more fun than the m+? Or should it only provide more dmg to ST (raids) and AOE (m+)? Well that's prob. not an option too.

So I'm not really sure, perhaps just like PVP? Let's say M+ drops 400 but cannot WF/TF. In Raids and world content it stays 400. But when you enter M+ it scales to 415. This provides a sense of accomplishemnt and gearing progression for M+ players, while at the same time, does not force Raiders to grind M+ as it would only drop 400 ilvl pieces (they could still use their 415 raid pieces in m+).

[Huzzaa]

It served a better purpose with legendaries.

Right now, It feels like a waste of time, unless you're lucky with your trinket drops. But that too happens only once and then you're done.

Going there hoping for a 425 version of the same trinket is yikes...

PS. Haha, and I just realised that I'm the one doing exactly that, lul.

[eloboosta]

It's excellent, it gives players practice to get better, and an incentive to play the game outside of raid times...

[Jaigar]

You are complaining about people coming and going yet M+ actually gives you something to do in between tiers. People would come and go all the damn time before M+ was a thing after raid progression was done. If anything M+ gives people more incentive to stick around after they have cleared their raid difficulty of choice not the other way around lmao...

That's not what hes saying at all. Hes saying that the pacing is off, that the flood of gear players are getting within the 2nd week of raiding can completely nullify heroic raiding and effectively removes content for players.

Have you ever played a game like Ragnarok Online, or any game that has private servers with loot turned way up? RO has servers ranging from 1x upwards of 100x, and once you experience a higher drop rate server, it can completely ruin the game for you. The carrot no longer becomes worth chasing.

Gear in WoW feels that way right now. Between how fast it is to gear in WoW with M+ and the hard resets of gear between tiers, pushing for better gear past what drops just feels like a complete waste of time. Hell, I struggle to care at 402 (not in a raiding guild at all).

Raiding can be fun in itself, but it needs to be rewarding. Heroic Raiding just isn't worth it anymore. Sure, you can find a casual guild who clears heroic in a night, but those are far and few between as most guilds that casual don't have very good players. I've played this game too long and dealing with people who can't handle simple raid mechanics just sets me off.

Scaling dungeons is a good idea, but its implemented poorly into the game as a whole.

[Twdft]

One of the option would be introducing completely seperate and viable for the content tier sets - one for raid, one for m+. But looking past to the tier sets, they used to provide alternative gameplay/rotation (even slight) to your class. So how would the Blizz solve it? Would be raid tier be more fun than the m+? Or should it only provide more dmg to ST (raids) and AOE (m+)? Well that's prob. not an option too.

The sets could have the same boni, but if you get it from dungeon gear it isn't active in raids and vice versa. Farming several sets for different activities has been part of WoW since forever so shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure that raids which have a lockout don't take too long to get the set (drop on first bosses, some kind of currency to buy missing pieces).

I really miss collecting tier sets.

[seasy]

That's not what hes saying at all. Hes saying that the pacing is off, that the flood of gear players are getting within the 2nd week of raiding can completely nullify heroic raiding and effectively removes content for players.

Have you ever played a game like Ragnarok Online, or any game that has private servers with loot turned way up? RO has servers ranging from 1x upwards of 100x, and once you experience a higher drop rate server, it can completely ruin the game for you. The carrot no longer becomes worth chasing.

Gear in WoW feels that way right now. Between how fast it is to gear in WoW with M+ and the hard resets of gear between tiers, pushing for better gear past what drops just feels like a complete waste of time. Hell, I struggle to care at 402 (not in a raiding guild at all).

Raiding can be fun in itself, but it needs to be rewarding. Heroic Raiding just isn't worth it anymore. Sure, you can find a casual guild who clears heroic in a night, but those are far and few between as most guilds that casual don't have very good players. I've played this game too long and dealing with people who can't handle simple raid mechanics just sets me off.

Scaling dungeons is a good idea, but its implemented poorly into the game as a whole.

You shouldn't play for gear because that will burn you out quickly.
There are probably more m+ players pushing than plain playing for gear because base ilvl cap is at +10 after each level just adds a 40% chance for additional items to be in chest.
If you want better gear raid mythic.

[xpose]

The fact that the #1 rogue on raider io is 415 and only 1/9 M says that the M+ system and titanforging/warforging has failed raiding

Can't tell if serious.


you're mad a dude who has probably killed 1000+ bosses in M+ is the same ilvl as a group that might clear a raid a couple times and log under 100 total kills in it.

[Ange]

Gear in WoW feels that way right now. Between how fast it is to gear in WoW with M+ and the hard resets of gear between tiers, pushing for better gear past what drops just feels like a complete waste of time. Hell, I struggle to care at 402 (not in a raiding guild at all).

This could be said at any time in WoW timeline when you join the game at the end of a tier/ilvl gap.

If you dont care for your ilvl/gear progression at all, thats ok, most players in WoW - the casual mass, doesnt care either. Not all content you do in WoW needs a steady gear progression or makes a difference in your playtime.

Why are you not happy with the game design? The whole catchup system is made for players avoiding content where gear would be needed.

This is just as strange to read, as Normal raiders complaing about the ilvl you get from LFR. The self reflection of a chihuahua.

[Jaigar]

You shouldn't play for gear because that will burn you out quickly.
There are probably more m+ players pushing than plain playing for gear because base ilvl cap is at +10 after each level just adds a 40% chance for additional items to be in chest.
If you want better gear raid mythic.

Gear has been a major driving factor in WoW for a very long time. The game is built around it and it would not function without constant power increases.

Its not the only motivating factor, but its a major one. People also play for the social aspect, or push high keys for the raider.io score. Some actually enjoy playing their classes.

- - - Updated - - -

This could be said at any time in WoW timeline when you join the game at the end of a tier/ilvl gap.

Not really. Mythic Raid gear was typically replaced by heroic raid gear the following tier. People were replacing their mythic uldir gear with world quest gear via emissaries. M5s the week of heroic BoD released were dropping 385 gear that could titanforge. It just completely nullified the farming for next raid tier aspect.

M0 in Legion jumped from 840 to 885 over 3 raid tiers. BfA jumped 30 ilvls over 1 raid tier. Every raid tier has had a 30 ilvl increase, but the Uldir-BoD transition upped all non-raid sources by 30 ilvls as well.

[seasy]

Gear has been a major driving factor in WoW for a very long time. The game is built around it and it would not function without constant power increases.

Its not the only motivating factor, but its a major one. People also play for the social aspect, or push high keys for the raider.io score. Some actually enjoy playing their classes.

- - - Updated - - -



Not really. Mythic Raid gear was typically replaced by heroic raid gear the following tier. People were replacing their mythic uldir gear with world quest gear via emissaries. M5s the week of heroic BoD released were dropping 385 gear that could titanforge. It just completely nullified the farming for next raid tier aspect.

M0 in Legion jumped from 840 to 885 over 3 raid tiers. BfA jumped 30 ilvls over 1 raid tier. Every raid tier has had a 30 ilvl increase, but the Uldir-BoD transition upped all non-raid sources by 30 ilvls as well.

Not really because emissaries are only 385 which basically is normal BoD ilvl.
The biggest reason to replace with emissaries was the second ring in azerite gear which didn't exist on Uldir/m+ gear at the time.
I farmed some m0s for the 370 azerite gear as it was better than mythic 385 pieces because of that extra ring.
However you could have spammed M5s all week but you don't need to do that if you only clear HC BoD.
If you only care about end game content its a godsend to be able to gear multiple alts fast because it makes the game so much more fun to play other things than your main.

[Marrilaife]

Gear in WoW feels that way right now. Between how fast it is to gear in WoW with M+ and the hard resets of gear between tiers, pushing for better gear past what drops just feels like a complete waste of time. Hell, I struggle to care at 402 (not in a raiding guild at all).

Raiding can be fun in itself, but it needs to be rewarding. Heroic Raiding just isn't worth it anymore. Sure, you can find a casual guild who clears heroic in a night, but those are far and few between as most guilds that casual don't have very good players. I've played this game too long and dealing with people who can't handle simple raid mechanics just sets me off.

It also feels like quality of heroic pugs went down a lot, the fact you don't need to raid heroic to get gear because m+ is more efficient, you can buy azerite from vendor, raid trinkets are underwhelming and there's no tier sets, so it feels like people who pug heroic are the people who can't get to m+ so then you end up disbanding on conclave.

Even on normal, I used to pug normal raids on some entry geared alts both in wod and in legion, and usually it was chill casual content and you'd clear most of normal without struggle, and in Uldir I don't think I ever managed to clear normal with a pug, most pugs couldn't even pass Zul. On normal. That is tuned supposedly for "drunken friend & family runs".

Tbh I gave up on playing alts mostly due to combined thing of too frequent and too harsh gear resets making me not want to invest time, poor quality of raid pugs, and extreme cost of consumables that I started asking myself "do I really wanna spend 10k on a couple of flasks and a stack of pots to do a raid on my alt?" Basically I know if I wanna gear an alt I can wait until 8.2 and spam m+ for 2 weeks and gear it up, but for what exactly? The enjoyment of clearing the raid on different classes, collecting sets of gear, it's all gone (not even mentioning there's no class specific transmog anymore it's reduced to 4 sets total).

And I can see similar feelings in my guild and among my friends, people play fewer alts than in legion, we stopped heroic alt run due to lack of interest, and m+ activity also went down drastically after everyone got enough residuum to buy their pieces which took maybe 1,5 months plus minus few weeks. It's hard to drag anyone to do anything. Complete apathy, not sure if anyone is even excited for Crucible, mostly waiting for 8.2.

People say pushing m+ is an activity you can do all season round, but they overestimate how many "pushers" exist in the community vs casuals that only do m+ for weekly (so basically for the gear) or to gear up alts. People who push keys above 20 are probably similar amount as mythic raiders, a quite small group.

Not really. Mythic Raid gear was typically replaced by heroic raid gear the following tier. People were replacing their mythic uldir gear with world quest gear via emissaries. M5s the week of heroic BoD released were dropping 385 gear that could titanforge. It just completely nullified the farming for next raid tier aspect.

Yep, it would feel better if the gap between tiers was 15 ilvl instead of 30, at least you'd feel if you raided or farmed m+ every week for the chest whole season, you have a "headstart" for the new season, you have to farm less than people who skipped the tier.

The removal of that "headstart" my making gaps bigger (and basically leaping over old titanforge cap) makes also titanforging a mechanic that loses its prime purpose, namely extending the shelf life of the content by making you more likely to care to farm it. Why would you care to farm for titanforges if it's gonna be obsolete so quick after you finally get it.

If you dont care for your ilvl/gear progression at all, thats ok, most players in WoW - the casual mass, doesnt care either. Not all content you do in WoW needs a steady gear progression or makes a difference in your playtime.

Not caring about progressing your character is the first step to unsubbing. Maybe some people have alternate progression goals like filling their collections or obtaining gold (AH players), but gear is the primary measurement of progression at the end game. When it's not smooth and over long period of time (for whatever difficulty level you play, doesn't matter if you're playing lfr or mythic) but it's easily gotten away with at the start of a season then meaningless for the next 5 months, that removes incentive to stay subbed for these 5 months in the middle between seasons.

It makes difference in your playtime. Because if you feel you can't progress your character, or it's pointless, then you just don't play it. What are you gonna do with your playtime, grind ap? Super pointless if you don't have the gear to support it, and fairly inefficient if you do it immediately instead of just waiting for AK to kick in.

Unless you're an RPer or an AH player, gear always mattered in wow. Even when it was about obtaining casual gear, through badges, points, reps, crafting etc. it still had this "over time" feeling to it.

[Yassy]

Let me say that farming a new balefire branch over and over again each new tier feels really bad.

But Blizzard seems determined to make raid trinkets ass.

Which is idiotic considering without tier sets you want an incentive to raid. You want players to seek out other styles of content because something exists there that doesn’t in the content they enjoy the most.