People are giving up veganism like crazy

[ellieg]

Great, we agree that you have been talking out your ass in spite of contradictory evidence, and have nothing of value to offer. I expect a retraction on your claims any day now...

You are coming off as an asshat and I dont see why you feel the need to do that.

We have agreed that I'm not going to post links or sources and you are 100% free to ignore me completely. I'll state it again. I have some random downtime throughout the day and like to peruse a few threads here. This is the offtopic section for a 15 year old video game. I do not wish to treat this like a formal debate like you want to. Therefore feel free to dismiss any of my claims.

[Bodakane]

Just a quick comment re: the bolded bit. I am unsure how many folks we have here in China; but I've seen some practices done there specifically to dogs that are allegedly as common a practice as what we do to cows here in the states and directly contradict what you said in bold.

Well, I said "I think most of you...."

[Lurker1]

I sympathize with your plight.

I hope when lab grown meat becomes available and cost effective, you'll consider switching to that.

I agree its pretty much nonstop eating or die for me Super hyper metabolism i forget the medical name for it.

[AcidicSyn]

Soooo tired of people like you and those meat channels you follow rabbling up stupid arguments that make no sense.

Healthy vegans are not the ones quitting being vegans, it's the unhealthy ones that only went vegan for trend reasons, or health reasons but they kept up with their unhealthy habits they had from before that no diet - not even a vegan one - would be able to fix.

The ones quitting are the ones that go years only eating very limited. Usually they only eat fruit and some greens, they juicy or water fast for months and they take no supplements and are anti-wax. They often exclude fats completely, and because of their very restrictive diet they miss out on minor nutrients aswell. They often only eat raw food, no cooked food. They are either the crazy ones, the ones with eating disorders or because it's currently trendy. So they eat very unhealthy for years, and when they get sick they blame veganism instead of realizing it's their extremely limited diet. A vegan diet done right is not limited.

Any diet that exclude certain types of food will get people with an eating disorder on the train. If the diet is also trendy it'll get even more of those people following it.
Saying a vegan diet is unhealthy because stupid ass people like Raw Alignment and Rawana English eat too limited, is like saying all diets with meat in them are unhealthy because Amberlynn Reid and Foodie Beauty are eating themselves to death.
If you're a meat eater that love to shit on vegans but would actually like to follow a vegan that isn't as crazy as the two mentioned above and that tend to be liked by meat eaters, I can suggest "Unnatural Vegan" on youtube.

I like to watch Mic the Vegan. Includes all cited sources, and presents opposing sources as well.

[Machismo]

You are coming off as an asshat and I dont see why you feel the need to do that.

We have agreed that I'm not going to post links or sources and you are 100% free to ignore me completely. I'll state it again. I have some random downtime throughout the day and like to peruse a few threads here. This is the offtopic section for a 15 year old video game. I do not wish to treat this like a formal debate like you want to. Therefore feel free to dismiss any of my claims.

I'm mirroring your own behavior, maybe you should think about that. You tried to push a condescending narrative, and when pressed, you refused to back it up., When given data that went against your narrative, you tried to move goalposts. When pressed further, you said I had to agree with baseless statements you were making, or else there was nothing we could discuss. When I provided evidence FOR YOUR CLAIM, you then tried to move goalposts again... all whilst pushing bullshit. You were disingenuous from the outset, and that's on you.

So, if you think I'm being an asshole to you, maybe you should think about that for a minute.

[AcidicSyn]

Well, I said "I think most of you...."

Ah, that you did. Words do matter and I apologize for the assumption. /tipshat

[Bodakane]

Ah, that you did. Words do matter and I apologize for the assumption. /tipshat

Not a problem, much respect for admitting that. /tipshat right back

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I agree its pretty much nonstop eating or die for me Super hyper metabolism i forget the medical name for it.

Good luck to you

[ellieg]

I'm mirroring your own behavior, maybe you should think about that. You tried to push a condescending narrative, and when pressed, you refused to back it up., When given data that went against your narrative, you tried to move goalposts. When pressed further, you said I had to agree with baseless statements you were making, or else there was nothing we could discuss. When I provided evidence FOR YOUR CLAIM, you then tried to move goalposts again... all whilst pushing bullshit. You were disingenuous from the outset, and that's on you.

So, if you think I'm being an asshole to you, maybe you should think about that for a minute.

I didnt move goalposts. We cldnt agree on a principle. Not on a fact. But on a principle.

Comparing veganism as a diet choice to the general population that does not follow a diet, is not apples to apples. You have ppl that drink 15 sodas a day and have never heard of the word calorie.

Ppl that take a deep look into their own diet, will be far more specialized then ppl that dont. And here we go again in a circle of "prove it"

[AcidicSyn]

All I know is that we stock an increasingly greater variety of vegan options for people who follow that movement and the demand keeps up. Veganism these days is vastly easier than a decade past; there are substitutes for so many things and the increased demand is driving prices into a more affordable range. I can say that in Greece because veganism ties so well to religious fasting it is very easy to find things to eat most of the year. Mind you it is also much easier to eat quality meat from small farms as well, free range cattle is very common in rural Greece.
I am not a vegan but I don't mind them at all and I respect what they are doing as long as they are not preachy about it.

Though one issue with those alternatives is that what you're likely seeing is a rise in what we call "junk food vegans", these are consequently the same vegans who quit being vegan because very few if any of their health concerns are being resolved. An impossible burger smothered in daiya cheese topped with gardein bacon isn't going to bring cholesterol down and in fact might make it worse.

For vegans who are vegan entirely for ethical reasons however these alternatives work. But for anyone going vegan for health reasons these products, if used at all, are best kept just to aid in the transition process or as an occasional treat. (I know; it's kind of how a non-vegan who aims to be healthy would also treat a bacon cheeseburger; it's a shocker.)

* For the purpose of this response, I use the word vegan to refer to those on a plant based diet and not within the true definition of what a vegan really is.

[Machismo]

I didnt move goalposts. We cldnt agree on a principle. Not on a fact. But on a principle.

Comparing veganism as a diet choice to the general population that does not follow a diet, is not apples to apples. You have ppl that drink 15 sodas a day and have never heard of the word calorie.

Ppl that take a deep look into their own diet, will be far more specialized then ppl that dont. And here we go again in a circle of "prove it"

Then, I look forward to your apples-to-apples comparison. Since you have admitted you won't back up your claims, then you can simply be dismissed. After all, you have offered nothing of value, other than trying to complain about data and statistics that disagrees with your narrative. So, let me know when you have something of value to offer to the discussion.

[ellieg]

Then, I look forward to your apples-to-apples comparison. Since you have admitted you won't back up your claims, then you can simply be dismissed. After all, you have offered nothing of value, other than trying to complain about data and statistics that disagrees with your narrative. So, let me know when you have something of value to offer to the discussion.

Will do chief. If you cant understand the principle, you wont be able to interpret the results.

[Machismo]

Will do chief. If you cant understand the principle, you wont be able to interpret the results.

Oh, the irony of that comment. I understand just fine. My (it should really be considered OUR data) data helps my case, and it's a wonderful feeling.

[ellieg]

Oh, the irony of that comment. I understand just fine. My data helps my case, and it's a wonderful feeling.

It's like talking about ppl that hulahoop and saying that hulahooping builds as much muscle as someone that lifts weights. Then u link a study that shows hula hoppers have lower BMI than the general public. The majority of which dont exercise at all. Like that's great that they are at least hula hooping, and they are healthier than the random public, but that study dsnt show u anything.

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Now replace hulahooper with vegan. Build muscle mass with healthier. And lift weights with a health conscious meat eater

[Bodakane]

Though one issue with those alternatives is that what you're likely seeing is a rise in what we call "junk food vegans", these are consequently the same vegans who quit being vegan because very few if any of their health concerns are being resolved. An impossible burger smothered in daiya cheese topped with gardein bacon isn't going to bring cholesterol down and in fact might make it worse.

For vegans who are vegan entirely for ethical reasons however these alternatives work. But for anyone going vegan for health reasons these products, if used at all, are best kept just to aid in the transition process or as an occasional treat. (I know; it's kind of how a non-vegan who aims to be healthy would also treat a bacon cheeseburger; it's a shocker.)

Minor point, and I'm only making it because I feel like it is important for everyone to be on the same page word wise before real discussion can begin...

Someone eating a plant based diet, isn't really vegan. The term gets confused a lot and a lot of places, including dictionaries and such confuse the terms. Being vegan means you eat a plant based diet AND you don't use animal products like leather, wool, honey or lanolin AND you also try to avoid products tested on animals.

If you eat an all plant based diet but still use things leather and wool, you are not vegan, you just eat like one.

What often happens is that people eat LIKE a vegan, and consider themselves vegan, but since it is diet for them they tend to break it, like most people do on most diets. Also, like most people on diets do, then tend to be pretentious and pushy about it. That's not to say there aren't horribly pushy vegans, there are and they suck, but at least they are being pushy because of ethical reasons they believe in, not because they are on a diet.

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It's like talking about ppl that hulahoop and saying that hulahooping builds as much muscle as someone that lifts weights. Then u link a study that shows hula hoppers have lower BMI than the general public. The majority of which dont exercise at all. Like that's great that they are at least hula hooping, and they are healthier than the random public, but that study dsnt show u anything.

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Now replace hulahooper with vegan. Build muscle mass with healthier. And lift weights with a health conscious meat eater

WADR, questioning a person's ability to understand principle versus fact, is not a hill you should die on based on the concepts you've been missing in this thread,

[ellieg]

Minor point, and I'm only making it because I feel like it is important for everyone to be on the same page word wise before real discussion can begin...

Someone eating a plant based diet, isn't really vegan. The term gets confused a lot and a lot of places, including dictionaries and such confuse the terms. Being vegan means you eat a plant based diet AND you don't use animal products like leather, wool, honey or lanolin AND you also try to avoid products tested on animals.

If you eat an all plant based diet but still use things leather and wool, you are not vegan, you just eat like one.

What often happens is that people eat LIKE a vegan, and consider themselves vegan, but since it is diet for them they tend to break it, like most people do on most diets. Also, like most people on diets do, then tend to be pretentious and pushy about it. That's not to say there aren't horribly pushy vegans, there are and they suck, but at least they are being pushy because of ethical reasons they believe in, not because they are on a diet.

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WADR, questioning a person's ability to understand principle versus fact, is not a hill you should die on based on the concepts you've been missing in this thread,

Do you at least understand my post that you quoted?

[AcidicSyn]

Why?

I've asked you a few times now and you keep ignoring the question.

You agreed humans don't need meat to survive. You just believe it is easier and tastes better. That means that's all the justification you need to support an industry that kills, hurts and tortures animals. How is that different than dog fighting?

I'm curious. Do you believe that all meat eaters support that evil fucked up industry (knowingly/unknowingly being irrelevant to me)? Do you have meat eating friends and if so, how do they feel about that?

The reason I ask is because I have a few friends who are very avid meat eaters themselves, with one difference that I consider to be a glaring exception. They hunt, kill, clean, dress, prepare, and cook 100% of their own meat. In one case, the crazy bastard not only does this but also makes his own cheese from his pet goat- not even kidding, named her Tabetha (yes, after the FTWD goat, like I said he's weird). Though the cheese he makes rarely for obvious reasons.

Point being; how do you feel about someone like this? (Apologies in advance if you addressed this very thing in an earlier reply; I too am at work and don't feel like running back through the thread to check.)

[Sezerek]

There's no need to be pretentious. Most people live their life based on their own set of morals and ethics, vegans are no different.

Being a vegan, I have run into quite a number of people who think I'm pretentious simply because I'm vegan. Or who think I'm preaching simply because I declined cheese. More times than not, people feel uncomfortable around vegans.

Here's what normally happens....

Person: Want some meat/dairy/eggs etc.?
Me: (Smiling) No thank you, i'm vegan.
Person: Oh....uh....oh.....
Me: It's ok
Person: I...I...I couldn't;t do that. I could never give up meat.
Me: No problem
Person: Not even cheese?
Me: (Still smiling) Nope, no animal products at all.

<The best it goes, ends there...but it often goes past that....>

Person: Do you ever cheat?
Me: Nope.
Person: Not even a little?
Me: No, cause for me it is about my ethical stance.
Person: Well what's so wrong with eating cheese or eggs?!?!?!

<At this point, there's no way to answer that without coming across like I'm preaching. Even if I try to not discuss it further, then I'm being pretentious and am too good to talk about it>

And all of that, is it when its not just openly hostile like this thread.

So you are really one of the cliché vegans that have the urge to let everyone instantaneously know that you are a vegan? Even your strange Bank story started like this.

And you probably wonder why people dont take you serious.

[Bodakane]

Do you at least understand my post that you quoted?

Yes, i understand the principle, though it is factually wrong.

I'm going to say this again, because you keep missing it.....

You do not know what a vegan diet entails nor do you know what vegan options there are for people, so you shouldn't be making definitive statements.

For example:


Is it easier to do some things on a meat based diet? Yes, absolutely. But you have no fucking clue how much easier it is. For all you know, it is just half a scoop of protein powder easier. You don't know, because you don't care to know. You have your mind made up not because of research or experience, but because of feelings. That is what Machismo has been trying to tell you. You are talking out of your butt and on top of it, seem to embrace your ignorance on the subject and wear it like a badge. And on top of it, you're complaining about the people missing the principle of your points all while you are completely missing the principle of the dog beating analogy.

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So you are really one of the cliché vegans that have the urge to let everyone instantaneously know that you are a vegan? Even your strange Bank story started like this.

And you probably wonder why people dont take you serious.

lol.

I hope others see what I'm talking about, now that you posted.

[ellieg]

Yes, i understand the principle, though it is factually wrong.

I'm going to say this again, because you keep missing it.....

You do not know what a vegan diet entails nor do you know what vegan options there are for people, so you shouldn't be making definitive statements.

For example:


Is it easier to do some things on a meat based diet? Yes, absolutely. But you have no fucking clue how much easier it is. For all you know, it is just half a scoop of protein powder easier. You don't know, because you don't care to know. You have your mind made up not because of research or experience, but because of feelings. That is what Machismo has been trying to tell you. You are talking out of your butt and on top of it, seem to embrace your ignorance on the subject and wear it like a badge. And on top of it, you're complaining about the people missing the principle of your points all while you are completely missing the principle of the dog beating analogy.

But I have done my research. I have told u have plenty of friends that follow a vegan diet and have all tried to convert me. I count every calorie. I have an extremely varied diet. I track my macros and micros.

My only point is if u wanna claim veganism is the healthiest, you have to compare it to other healthy meat based diets. Not general public.

And I have done years of research. I'm simply not gonna look for studies to post on a videogame forum.

So I'm not a dog beater but I'm the equivalent of a dog fight watcher. Thats rich lol.

[Newname1234567890]

No Bullshit's name is ironic....