Why do people say class design is dumbed down?

[united]

On my priest I have tons of abilities to use, with holy having the most. Could I get some perspective from people that think the classes are too easy to play?

[HCLM]

Healers are in a good spot gameplay-wise. Try playing a dps class. Most of them are smashing two buttons, and refresh dots every 20seconds.

Moreover, most dps classes lost any min-maxing when it comes to rotation. Just follow the prio order or set in stone rotation and you will be as good as a guy who play the same class much longer.


Mages are perfect examples for this. Arcane mage is literally using only AB for dps. Frost mage is casting frost bold fishing fir Brain Freeze procs when Glacial Spike is up. There is no deep in it.

[Weeps]

Because in BfA the classes are so much more homogenous.

Little attack - filler spell to build up resource (energy, insanity, maelstrom, etc)
Medium attack - Longer cd spell that's pretty strong and builds resources faster than little attacks.
Large attack - Only use on proc because it takes long to cast

It is exactly like that quest in MoP when you play the Nelf guy, Rel or something? Same exact feeling.

That's it. That is what is destroying WoW.

[rda]

On my priest I have tons of abilities to use, with holy having the most. Could I get some perspective from people that think the classes are too easy to play?

Two illustrations:

1. The number of binds I use dropped by something like 40% from what it was in MoP / WoD. I had a use for all binds that vanished, that's why I had them as binds (some of the abilities - usually a very small amount - I didn't bind, only bound what I actually pressed regularly).

2. When I was leveling alts - managed to level 4 after main so far - they all played nearly exactly the same. Builder (sometimes two) - spender (sometimes two) - filler - some defensives / CC, sometimes a button for AOE. It's just boring. 1 and 2 always build, 3 and 4 always spend, E always interrupts or stuns or whatever, X always defends, etc.

Both of the above things are the result of prunes. The game is lacking depth and differences that matter. Everything is the same gray instead of having different colors, so to speak. It's boring.

[RoKPaNda]

People mistake having a bunch of worthless abilities with no point in ever using let alone having on your bars for complexity. The only real difference for most specs from Legion, where class design was considered great for the most part, is the loss of the artifact clickable ability.

[RobertMugabe]

People mistake having a bunch of worthless abilities with no point in ever using let alone having on your bars for complexity. The only real difference for most specs from Legion, where class design was considered great for the most part, is the loss of the artifact clickable ability.

Or you mistake what people are talking about...

[Daikoku]

People mistake having a bunch of worthless abilities with no point in ever using let alone having on your bars for complexity. The only real difference for most specs from Legion, where class design was considered great for the most part, is the loss of the artifact clickable ability.

You forgot Golden Traits, Middle Traits.

[Chrotesque]

You forgot Golden Traits, Middle Traits.

All of which were passive effects though, nothing that would add anything to your action bars.

[Daikoku]

On my priest I have tons of abilities to use, with holy having the most. Could I get some perspective from people that think the classes are too easy to play?

If you are playing healer, probably that is the problem

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All of which were passive effects though, nothing that would add anything to your action bars.

Which doesn't devalue the fact that class design is toned down in BFA? Class complexity =\= having 89234792 button unless you are naive to think it.


IF we compare Azerite Traits to Aritfact Traits+Leggo+Tiers we can clearly see what caused issues with some classes in BFA.

Having passive isn't BAD, ofc having "You cast X and get Y secondaries for 5 sec" as majority of passives MAYBE

[Captain Proton]

Healers are in a good spot gameplay-wise. Try playing a dps class. Most of them are smashing two buttons, and refresh dots every 20seconds.

Moreover, most dps classes lost any min-maxing when it comes to rotation. Just follow the prio order or set in stone rotation and you will be as good as a guy who play the same class much longer.


Mages are perfect examples for this. Arcane mage is literally using only AB for dps. Frost mage is casting frost bold fishing fir Brain Freeze procs when Glacial Spike is up. There is no deep in it.

That's how it's always been in WoW though. What other options are there if not a priority or set in stone rotation?

Fewer abilities doesn't necessarily mean less complexity, or boring. I loved MM Hunter in Legion, and it was considered one of the harder specs overall(at the time) iirc. The spec basically used Aimed Shot as the only focus spender, ST/Multi Target Focus builder, and the artifact ability. Meanwhile I'm playing havoc and it's pretty braindead, primarily uses 5 abilities for its dmg priority.

[Chrotesque]

If you are playing healer, probably that is the problem

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Which doesn't devalue the fact that class design is toned down in BFA? Class complexity =\= having 89234792 button unless you are naive to think it.


IF we compare Azerite Traits to Aritfact Traits+Leggo+Tiers we can clearly see what caused issues with some classes in BFA.

Having passive isn't BAD, ofc having "You cast X and get Y secondaries for 5 sec" as majority of passives MAYBE

For me at least that kind of complexity is worthless, in the sense that I don't have a choice in it. The artifact had to be skilled fully and thus, there was no choice. Of course it was nice fluff that X happened when I pressed Y but for me, the real complexity comes from having a choice though.
Not necessarily disagree with the fact that class design appears to be more simple these days.

[Captain Proton]

All of which were passive effects though, nothing that would add anything to your action bars.

Passive effects can affect how abilities work though. Passive effects are just as important as abilities in defining a fun playstyle.

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For me at least that kind of complexity is worthless, in the sense that I don't have a choice in it. The artifact had to be skilled fully and thus, there was no choice. Of course it was nice fluff that X happened when I pressed Y but for me, the real complexity comes from having a choice though.
Not necessarily disagree with the fact that class design appears to be more simple these days.

Choice has always been an illusion though. It's part of the reason why we no longer have talent trees and less interesting talent choices/rows.

I mean you can choose to have suboptimal talents, traits, etc. If you're min/maxing, choice was never there because there was always a most optimal way to play.

[Chrotesque]

Passive effects can affect how abilities work though. Passive effects are just as important as abilities in defining a fun playstyle.

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Choice has always been an illusion though. It's part of the reason why we no longer have talent trees and less interesting talent choices/rows.

It is for most, indeed. When something does more damage, then that's the choice. But I'm not a world class player, I've made choices in the past that I knew were mathematically worse off but I also wanted to enjoy playing the class, so I took a dps hit for my own personal enjoyment. That's a choice.

[Cobman]

Well some abilities were really cool via Legion artifact system, I was tanking with prot paladin in Legion but when BfA came i couldnt bare it any longer. Well with GCD and some traits lost from weapons it feels like something is missing

[RoKPaNda]

You forgot Golden Traits, Middle Traits.

Thread is about abilities, not passives.

Or you mistake what people are talking about...

Or I'm just more honest about the things that were pruned from any of the classes I play. For about 10 years now most rotations have been about 5 buttons with a couple offensive and a defensive cooldown. Yet you'll see people complain because they went from 50+ binds down to a more reasonable number of binds. People were putting literally every single worthless ability on their bars. Why keep abilities that serve no purpose around? Hoarders. lol.

Now if the complaint was certain specs feeling worse than they did in Legion like Shadow for example yes. But the whole "CLASS DESIGN AS A WHOLE IS BAAAAAAAAD because I don't have 8 bars filled with useless butttonnnnnnnns." thing is pretty silly. Some specs, like Arms, feel better than they ever have.

[Captain Proton]

It is for most, indeed. When something does more damage, then that's the choice. But I'm not a world class player, I've made choices in the past that I knew were mathematically worse off but I also wanted to enjoy playing the class, so I took a dps hit for my own personal enjoyment. That's a choice.

Yeah, I edited my post to address this. I was coming from the perspective of someone who plays most optimally for end game content.

I think a part of the problem is turning passives into artifact traits, then not all of those being reimplemented. Passives affect your rotation a lot more than abilities. Abilities will come down to hitting the most damaging ability/resource efficient ability. Passives give you more variables to consider than just raw damage and efficiency.

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Thread is about abilities, not passives.



Or I'm just more honest about the things that were pruned from any of the classes I play. For about 10 years now most rotations have been about 5 buttons with a couple offensive and a defensive cooldown. Yet you'll see people complain because they went from 50+ binds down to a more reasonable number of binds. People were putting literally every single worthless ability on their bars. Why keep abilities that serve no purpose around? Hoarders. lol.

Now if the complaint was certain specs feeling worse than they did in Legion like Shadow for example yes. But the whole "CLASS DESIGN AS A WHOLE IS BAAAAAAAAD because I don't have 8 bars filled with useless butttonnnnnnnns." thing is pretty silly. Some specs, like Arms, feel better than they ever have.

Thread is about class design, not purely about abilities. Passives are very important to class design. You even allude to this by suggesting that it's not about the number of abilities.

[Thorbalt]

That's how it's always been in WoW though. What other options are there if not a priority or set in stone rotation?

https://youtu.be/klm2Q7xu_d4

that

[Daikoku]

Thread is about abilities, not passives.



Or I'm just more honest about the things that were pruned from any of the classes I play. For about 10 years now most rotations have been about 5 buttons with a couple offensive and a defensive cooldown. Yet you'll see people complain because they went from 50+ binds down to a more reasonable number of binds. People were putting literally every single worthless ability on their bars. Why keep abilities that serve no purpose around? Hoarders. lol.

Now if the complaint was certain specs feeling worse than they did in Legion like Shadow for example yes. But the whole "CLASS DESIGN AS A WHOLE IS BAAAAAAAAD because I don't have 8 bars filled with useless butttonnnnnnnns." thing is pretty silly. Some specs, like Arms, feel better than they ever have.

No.

Thread title is about why people think that class design, so not only active abilities, and OP post about having tons of abilities as Priest means really nothing rather that he is so naive to think that [tons of abilities] = [hard and complex class design]

[nyc81991]

Because for a lot of classes they have removed a significant amount of spells and abilities. What we have now is a shell of what was.

[Captain Proton]

https://youtu.be/klm2Q7xu_d4

that

I was expecting the video to refute what I said, instead I was thoroughly amused. Great post.