Why do people say class design is dumbed down?

[Razzako]

it sucks casting rapture and having to wait for the GCD to end to start shielding. awful design.

Yup, this happens to literally every spec in one way or another, it's a shame that the combat feels much, much worse. The WoD class revamp felt bad but this one is just atrocious, I don't even think it's recency bias or anything of the sort.

[Mamut]

https://youtu.be/klm2Q7xu_d4

that

Reminds me of my Warlock with sacrifice spec long time ago spamming all day shadow bolt.

[Maudib]

For me, it's not so much "dumbed down" as scraped thin.

I don't want a complicated class, i want to play a fun one.... the kids of today have been trained over the past few years to have razor sharp reflexes, and able to fire off combo moves faster than I can even decide what move I want to do.

Instead WoW had a plethora of situational skills, CC, buffs, etc... much of which either pruning has removed or homogenization has made redundant.

Moving mage buffs to "passive" so I don't have to cast and keep an eye on them? But I THOUGHT I was a mage and was supposed to cast spells?

In previous expansions you have to be pretty good at certain classes to do well. Now, you can use a ONE button macro from: https://wowlazymacros.com/forums/forum/classes/ and perform very well.

If a class can be scripted out in a macro? It's probably doesn't require much skill.

So were older specs/skills harder to play? Nah.. just more fun.

[Zyrinx]

It was done in an attempt to balance PvE and PvP separately, wasn't it? How successful has that actually been?

It was an obvious ploy to force people to turn on Warmode (one of many).

[Lightstrike]

It was an obvious ploy to force people to turn on Warmode (one of many).

I know it's not the topic of this thread, but warmode is probably one of the finest examples of evidence that the devs are asleep at the wheel.

It's like the only way they know how to make people participate in content is to bribe them with rewards, except to make them keep doing it there needs to be some RNG in there lest players actually get what they want and not do it again.

This is very much a case of there being too many extrinsic benefits and not enough intrinsic ones - put simply, if they made the game fun then people would play it without having to be bribed.

All they had to do to "fix" world PvP was do a better job at merging realms and shards to balance out the number of participants. Any sort of reward system attached to such an elective type of gameplay is always going to tend to the extremes and not the centre.

Like, take the stupidly high ilvl gear they offered initially before they dropped it back down in an effort to balance out Alliance vs Horde. Once Alliance players got the quest done do you think they kept it on? Or do you think it's in their best interests to turn it back off immediately to have a better chance at getting the quest again next week?

Did they think that the world pvp they were fostering was going to be heroic micro-battles between players doing WQs in the same area? Or is it more likely that it's going to involve camping flight points for 20 mins or so?

They try to solve problems with formulae and data instead of actually playing the game and seeing if it's actually fun.

[Lazuli]

Because they're boring as fuck?

[MechaCThun]

https://youtu.be/klm2Q7xu_d4

that

I see that, and I raise you this:

[jakeic]

https://youtu.be/klm2Q7xu_d4

that

I don't know if you're aware of this, and I mean no offense, but that video was a joke video about how boring/op moonfire was in pvp during vanilla. Not defending vanilla design, but that is not an accurate representation of the gameplay of the time.

[MechaCThun]

i don't know if you're aware of this, and i mean no offense, but that video was a joke video about how boring/op moonfire was in pvp during vanilla. Not defending vanilla design, but that is not an accurate representation of the gameplay of the time.

s a r c a s m

[HCLM]

That's how it's always been in WoW though. What other options are there if not a priority or set in stone rotation?

Fewer abilities doesn't necessarily mean less complexity, or boring. I loved MM Hunter in Legion, and it was considered one of the harder specs overall(at the time) iirc. The spec basically used Aimed Shot as the only focus spender, ST/Multi Target Focus builder, and the artifact ability. Meanwhile I'm playing havoc and it's pretty braindead, primarily uses 5 abilities for its dmg priority.

It was survi not MM that was the hard spec.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

For me, the problem is in Legion we had a round of pruning which reduced class abilities but at the same time we got a weapon that gave the classes a couple Legion only abilities that filled some of the gap. Then BFA rolls around and they took the Legion abilities away and in their place really gave us nothing. Which pretty much left us with the pruned classes before we got the weapon in Legion. It is just to raw and lacks depth. The mechanical grind of a rotation, or the skeletons, of a great classes are there for almost all of them but the meat that makes them different and allows for choice is gone.

At least that is how I look at it.

[Al Gorefiend]

For me personally, since vanilla/the expac they arrived in:

DK - not dumbed down, WotLK DKs were unnecessarily complex and that didn't make them fun. Good DKs only needed a few of their abilities to perform and facesmash every other player.

Druid - Probably the class most bloated with unnecessary abilities since they originally had almost every ability from every spec all at once. Most abilities from vanilla are still there in some form, though feral especially has been "dumbed down" as they historically were one of the most complex DPS specs to master, even in WoD AKA the expac that dumbed everything down.

Hunter - Yes, they lost many of their abilities, but so many of their abilities weren't fun or impressive to use I was never sad to see them go. Each ability was essentially "arcane shot" with some additional effect like poison. The one aspect of hunters I do miss was traps at player location instead of a target reticle.

Mage - Back when mages had every ability across every spec, they still used the same amount of buttons they do now. Arcane was dumbed down a lot though, and mana management is hardly relevant anymore which is a shame.

Monk - probably the most dumbed down. They were a visually impressive class with a lot of abilities with functional and situational use, and it felt proper to the class fantasy of martial artists that they'd have many tools to combat any threat. Nowadays I cannot stand windwalker or mistweaver as they feel so lame compared to their MoP/WoD days. Brewmaster is still fun though despite losing half their kit since they premiered.

Paladin - Prot and Holy still feel satisfying and better than they used to be. Ret was overly pruned in Legion, they suffered the most IMO. Having like 4 abilities was really lame, and I felt I was doing more damage as a prot in Legion.

Priest - this is what I main and Disc overall felt the most satisfying in Legion. Despite what many people thought I felt it was a really unique and fun playstyle. The removal of the PW:S cooldown was a really bad decision. I'd love a talent that lets us pick between a big meaty shield or the cheap atonement spreading ones we have now. Bring back Spirit Shell.. I also think Disc has the most boring of talent choices compared to every other spec in the game. Shadow suffered under the fast-pacing of Legion boss design, imo it feels good now, but the change to shadow word death was god awful.

[Tradu]

One big thing is that trinkets are pathetic, so there's no reason to actually play around them, which used to be a very important skill(especially with snapshotting). Beyond that, there's just barely any punishment for fucking up. For most specs you just make sure to press something every GCD and press the shiny button and you're doing like 80% of maximum damage, which is absurdly high for playing wrong. It's also very hard to differentiate yourself as a skilled player when gear RNG has such an absurd range in terms of power(correct azerite vs unlucky, 425 weapon vs 415 etc).
Classes also play much more similarly than they did in the past. If you are good at a spec(including knowing why you do things), you can pick up any other spec within the same role and play it at nearly the same level, because there's very few relevant nuances, you just build and spend in a very rigid manner.

- - - Updated - - -

Look at your Warmode abilities sometime.

You'll see a lot of old friends in there, which used to be core class abilities (some are passives, but like half, aren't).

Or even regular talent tree. Notice how abilities like Shadow Word: Death are in there. That means they're both no longer baseline and took the place of another talent.

- - - Updated - - -

People forget the mind numbing one button rotations.

No, people remember the fantastic ~6 years in the middle.

- - - Updated - - -

People mistake having a bunch of worthless abilities with no point in ever using let alone having on your bars for complexity. The only real difference for most specs from Legion, where class design was considered great for the most part, is the loss of the artifact clickable ability.

Because it was propped up by artifacts, legendaries and set bonuses. And even with those it was worse than Cata/MoP/WoD. You're also ignoring artifact traits that added new interactions/effects to existing abilities, legendaries which in a lot of cases had big gameplay impact, as well as set bonuses which did the same.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I have say that it'd be immensely interesting to see how many of those claiming the classes to be "dumbed down", could perform with them at any meaningful level.

[Luxeley]

Depends on the class, the role you play and most of all it depends on whether you primarily Pvp or Pve. Pvpers definitely want more abilities, but the reality is - they might not misunderstand about their class can optimized. Generally speaking the majority of class design is done with Pve in mind which means Pvpers think they want more abilities, but the answer might simply be better class tuning for pvp. In short, if you're a dps and you mainly play Pvp end game, chances are you are not happy or remotely satisified with BFA class design.

[Tradu]

I have say that it'd be immensely interesting to see how many of those claiming the classes to be "dumbed down", could perform with them at any meaningful level.

I'm sure it would, but I don't think it's really relevant. Having room to improve is a good thing, and current specs barely have any. In HFC, there were maybe 3-4 WWs who were anywhere near mastering the spec. I was somewhere around 30th best, and the gap between me and those guys was huge (purely because I was worse at playing the spec, I had access to essentially all the same knowledge they did from talking to them a lot). Now it's both extremely hard to tell how much of it is skill and how much is just RNG gear(see Quasy the Feral in Nighthold who got #1 allstar basically for free because he was 5-10 overall ilevel higher than any of the usual top Ferals) and there just isn't that much room for that differentiation. Bad players should do bad damage, and the skill/DPS range should very clearly show who is the better player.

So specs being harder/more complex to play isn't just something the best players should want, it's completely valid for worse players to also want that, in order to have something to work on and get better at.

[Nerovar]

Those two statements don't mix.

For example, your "E" keybind survived pruning, on any class / spec barring healers (where it mostly was done for PvP balance).
This is a result of whiny players who wanted to see an interrupt / def CD / Off CD on every class they play.

Originally something like Interrupts were actually kinda special, but then around Wotlk / Cata Blizzard decided that every dps / tank (except for SP / Balance) need an interrupt.

Up to Cata, Paladin & Hunters had no interrupt at all, Feral originally only had this Interrupt / Charge hybrid limited to bear.

And if DK,Monks and DH are any indication, Blizzard sees interrupt as baseline tool for any (Melee) Dps / Tank.

This entire thing is much more complicated than just dumb it down to pruning, pruning removed abilities with fringe used and considolated abilities into a single button.

Pruning did not cause (or combat) homogenization, that is entirely the result of Blizzard finding lazy fixes for classes over the course of multiple expansions, applying the same basic playstyle onto every spec / class.

The problem of pruning and homogenization isn't just about what was removed, but also to a large part about what's still in the game.

You're kinda missing the point. Back in the good ol' days classes were different because they had different utility. Over the years classes evolved though and most specs gained utility that was previously exclusive to other classes but at the same time Blizzard managed to create new things to make them still feel distinct (e.g. by giving them even more unique utility on top, making rotations more complex etc.).
What Blizzard lately tried to do is remove all the utility and complexity these specs amassed over years of development to return them to a "pristine" state in which classes are simple and mostly differ from each other in terms of a few utility options. Of course that didn't really work out in the context of modern day WoW (e.g. it's hard to come up with a unique mobility for every class when you have like 9 different melee classes) especially since it turned out that players don't really like the idea of regressing in an RPG.
It's quite insane actually. Imagine simply reverting years of progress in the form of class development because you think classes have become "untidy" as they put it in the most recent interview.

We need to be more willing than we have been in the last couple of years and expansions to make permanent additions to the game and accept that, yes, there will be some untidiness down the road but it'll be worth it because it's exciting for players. People want that out of an MMO, they want an RPG as you're adventuring and progressing and gaining new things.

One can only hope for the best.

I'm sure it would, but I don't think it's really relevant. Having room to improve is a good thing, and current specs barely have any. In HFC, there were maybe 3-4 WWs who were anywhere near mastering the spec. I was somewhere around 30th best, and the gap between me and those guys was huge (purely because I was worse at playing the spec, I had access to essentially all the same knowledge they did from talking to them a lot). Now it's both extremely hard to tell how much of it is skill and how much is just RNG gear(see Quasy the Feral in Nighthold who got #1 allstar basically for free because he was 5-10 overall ilevel higher than any of the usual top Ferals) and there just isn't that much room for that differentiation. Bad players should do bad damage, and the skill/DPS range should very clearly show who is the better player.

So specs being harder/more complex to play isn't just something the best players should want, it's completely valid for worse players to also want that, in order to have something to work on and get better at.

I really miss that iteration of WW.

[potis]

I have say that it'd be immensely interesting to see how many of those claiming the classes to be "dumbed down", could perform with them at any meaningful level.

There is nothing to see, they simply dont perform.

The average mmo-champion poster, is also that average LFR player that is wearing 400 ilvl because of WQ/Titanforge emissaries, does 10k DPS while giving it his all, and then rages at the random Mythic raider (or the alt of his) thats doing 20k+ with 405 ilvl about elitism and he shouldnt be in LFR, because he cant show off his AMAZING SKILLZ.

[Nerovar]

There is nothing to see, they simply dont perform.

The average mmo-champion poster, is also that average LFR player that is wearing 400 ilvl because of WQ/Titanforge emissaries, does 10k DPS while giving it his all, and then rages at the random Mythic raider thats doing 20k+ with 405 ilvl about elitism and he shouldnt be in LFR.

Nice meme my dude.

Could this be the biggest of all the strawmen?

[Tumile]

I love the condescension there. A+. That said you're not really disproving my point. You cherry picked some of the worst examples in the game and I would gladly give you those and I totally support players of those classes in wanting things back. I never said there were NO issues. There are absolutely some specs that feel like shit. Shadow priest for example feels gross compared to its Legion version (Infinitely better than most iterations of it before that though.) and I completely understand why those players are mad. That said, the whole blanket statement of "CLASS DESIGN BAD NOW." isn't helpful, it's disingenuous, and it diverts attention away from the specs that have real issues.

Okay then, to expand the list!

Holy paladin, the GCD change alone dumbed down the specc, with things such as beacon combos removed, and Winged beacon combos going with it. which dumbed the specc waaaaay down to TBC levels of flash of light spam gameplay. then glimmer arrived! yay! oh wait, thats just a dumbed down resto druid / disc priest... damn

Death knight, all you need to do is look at their APM. u can literally eat dinner and still do fully optimized DPS in a mythic raid on frost DK, and unholy they managed to change in such a way that i find it hard to believe that everyone doesnt know about this one anymore, the fact u arent playing around valkyr basically means the specc became braindead, it went from a super fragile punishing DPS specc, to the Twitch clip of some of the best M+ players in the world playing the game with their forehead. Blood DK is also a shadow of its former self, and quite literally became a 2 button specc. with things like their aoe Leech removed DK's pretty much became Guardian druids. thrash, iron fur, thrash.

Boomkin started out the expansion using 1 button... and that was sunfire. the current way boomkin is being played is a god damn atrocity compared to Legion, with weaving spells and pooling astral power either because of the legendary helmet, or because of the bracers + Stellar drift, Boomies went from something where a truly good Boomkin could shine, to a soul less brain dead caster specc. this is one of the real big ones as well, and all u have to do is talk to some of boomies on the class discord and you'll find many top end players sharing this opinion very strongly.

Arms warrior - The passive traits basically made it into a hit combo specc like WW monks, now its just presss execute every single global once the target hits 35%. nice.

like the list goes on ma dude, those were not the worst examples at all, id say the 3 worst are Rshammy, Boomy, and Unholy. i sadly never touched mages in Legion, so i have no clue about those, you mentioned shadow urself, very few speccs fall into your example, only ones i can count are - Ret pally, Fury warrior, Holy priest and maybe some of the mage speccs? like even warlocks were much more interesting and difficult in Legion except for Demo, which may not be my cup of tea, but most people seems to prefer its current state in BFA over Legion, i dont personally share that opinion, but i havent played warlock at any high level since MoP so they are probably right.

So there was no cherry picking going on, as about 80%+ of all speccs are heavily dumbed down.