The Brexit aftermath thread

[Crispin]

AFAIK it’s the uk who’ll beg for an extension. Ignoring your lying politicians like farrage and Boris isn’t hard for anyone with half a brain.

Glad you’ll stick around in the eu some more chum

[dribbles]

AFAIK it’s the uk who’ll beg for an extension. Ignoring your lying politicians like farrage and Boris isn’t hard for anyone with half a brain.

Glad you’ll stick around in the eu some more chum

Oh I know how much you will miss us, but don't bank on us sticking around, as I have been saying for ages what the politicians want is not the same as what the population want and a new survey reported today says...How most of Britain now wants a NO DEAL Brexit



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...AL-Brexit.html

[Mayhem]

AFAIK it’s the uk who’ll beg for an extension. Ignoring your lying politicians like farrage and Boris isn’t hard for anyone with half a brain.

Glad you’ll stick around in the eu some more chum

I find it somewhat funny that he's threatening us with British politicians. And I just love the irony in right-wingers (far-right actually) hoping to work together across borders while telling everyone that they should be separated from each other.

[dippinsawse]

The constitutional court in germany has a lot of power. Compare it to the supreme court in the US. That's what keeps the Government in line. And it works wonderfully so far. Also, German Governments tend to not make super dramatic decisions that affect Germans negatively. The ones they do make (solidarity tax after reunification) are widely understood to be necessary (to lift East Germany out of the post war nightmare into the 21st century). Governments decide how public money is spent. That's the way things go. Whether it's Brussels or Berlin doesn't matter much to us. We're involved in doing elections. This has nothing to do with guilt, it has everything to do with us having our own lives to live and not being arsed to exercise more direct control. As I said, the Government is the management that takes care of the country so we can focus on business.

Human rights conflict with each other all the time. Anywhere there are human rights. This isn't a new revelation to people understanding the concept. That's the reason why courts exist, to reconcile the different rights and arbitrary where they don't. Only batshit crazy anarchists talk about human rights as absolutes that are all equally inviolable. The key is how high the threshhold to violating human rights is. In Germany, they're very well defined and rather high. Doesn't mean we are a hippie country where everything is perfect. On key example would be the prison system. Prison generally serves two purposes: Protect society and punish for a crime. You can do it like the US does, protect society by taking the indivdual out of society and punish them by doing so. Or you can do it in Germany, where prisoners do have human rights and especially the right to dignity, our prime right, take the individual into prison and rehabilitate him so he can be reinserted into society as a productive member of society. It's cheaper and in the long run leads to lower crime rates, protecting society. People often mistake this for a soft approach from Germany. In reality, however, it's simply a more pragmatic approach. The US system is unsustainable in the long run. As we can see these days. Human rights don't mean you're less efficient.

If the EU violates human rights, Germany would suspend EU actions that violate human rights. We wouldn't leave the EU. We would just disable the aspects on a national level that violate human rights and then go back to the EU and demand they fix it. So far, this hasn't happened since the human rights charter was introduced and is unlikely to happen in the future.

I don't disagree with general criticism of the EU. I disagree with the general rejection of the EU as a concept itself. They are not wrong because of what they say, per se. They are wrong because what they say is based on a fantasy they made up in their heads. If you want to hate on the EU, at least hate on it for the right reasons. Because if you argue against a fantasy in your head, chances are none of your arguments have a chance at sticking. As we can see in the Brexit discussion. I'll reiterate what I've said often in this thread: I have yet to see one valid argument against remaining in the EU. Just ONE argument would be enough to satisfy me.

Having said that, it is the right of the British people to behave as stupidly as they wish. If they want to go, just go. In Germany we have a saying, Reisende soll man ziehen lassen. Loosely translated it means don't hold back the traveller from his journey (sometimes with the implication that the journey is a mistake). And at this point, I am convinced the UK has to leave the EU. If only to find out for themselves that fantasies never once touched reality.

I may have to put this more into context. Naturally if you have a government they are the ones dealing with the day to day decisions. It makes absolute sense to want to put people in charge of that so everyone else can go about their day. What I am talking about is the extent to which that governing body gets to decide how you live your life, what is done with your labor and property, what beliefs and rights to expression you are allowed to have etc. Having the power to funnel your wealth into certain programs, your person into certain wars or military acts, and your rights as an individual of certain beliefs or race is what enabled the nazi government to do what it did. Why does giving the government that much power to decide those things not frighten you the same way populism frightens you?

I don't think human rights conflict with each other to be clear, I think that certain attempts to better protect human rights can and do often infringe on other human rights in the process of overextending to try to ensure another can't be infringed. Having a right to live doesn't conflict with someone else's right to live. It just so happens that many violations are justified trying to ensure another right even though they aren't explicitly at odds like limiting what kinds of guns you can own because they might allow you to potentially infringe on someone else's human rights. For example, most of Europe violates article 19 of the UN declaration of human rights detailing the human right of freedom of opinion and expression across all media. They do this in the name of protecting other rights that are not actually infringed by the applied instances of that human right. There is a difference between saying you can't infringe these rights/punishing you for doing so, and trying to limit your other rights that enable you the freedom to POTENTIALLY violate or fail to uphold someone else's right.

Setting that aside, what about decisions that don't violate human rights that you just disagree with? If they start implementing policies all of germany dislikes but they aren't violating human rights, what then? Do you just accept it and live with it because that's what the EU wants?

And that is commendable to accept and bear criticism for the EU. I'm surprised you feel that there is not a single legitimate argument against remaining in the EU though. That is a strong position to hold to the extent that just one is enough for you to agree with it. What would qualify as legitimate? Does it have to be a human rights violation or just something in which the british don't like that the EU tries to make them do?

I agree that at this point it seems the UK just has to rip the bandaid off and leave. Most of the UK seems to agree with that. It's the politicians who are the most afraid and reluctant to agree to a no deal brexit. But that isn't really important to my interest in the whole situation. What is of interest to me is the EU perspective on this. It seems to me that the UK almost unanimously either wants to remain in the EU or have a brexit that concretely exits them from he EU while maintaining as much free trade and cooperation as possible with the EU. On the other side the EU seems more bitter and wants the UK to suffer and be worse off to the extent that they aren't negotiating in good faith or making concessions that benefit both sides because that would be conceding a more favorable outcome to the UK than the EU wants to allow them. Do you feel that the EU could be acting more fairly or trying to work more with the UK as they leave and if so why do you think they aren't doing that? If you don't think that is the case, what things do you think that would benefit the UK, if any, are not included in the May deal that should be and whose fault do you think that is?

[Elegiac]

Oh I know how much you will miss us, but don't bank on us sticking around, as I have been saying for ages what the politicians want is not the same as what the population want and a new survey reported today says...How most of Britain now wants a NO DEAL Brexit



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...AL-Brexit.html

Because as we know, geographic area and population density are the same thing./s

[Mayhem]

snip

Northern Ireland already not a UK region.

[telygroar]

I'm just looking at the show, but this map remind me of "what the fuck will happens with scotland after the brexit".
Are they starting a new independence referendum ? Since the last one was heavily highlighted as "you can't stay in europe if you vote to leave us!" ?

[dribbles]

Northern Ireland already not a UK region.

OK, a more specific headline for you from today's standard.

Every region of England and Wales apart from London is happy to leave the European Union without a deal if no agreement is reached by April 12, a poll has revealed.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4108916.html

Is that better for you? And the silly UK politicians are now pushing for a "confirmatory" vote. LOL OK then double dare them to...

[Fuiking]

when you use low income worker newspapers as your source you know you fucked up.

Do you even know what the fuck a No Deal Brexit means Dribbles? It fucking removes you from ALL trade treaties, you will need to make a number of new ones after Brexit, which will take years. What about the organizations you will leave? Well, you need to get them new too, Another few years down the drain.

Another point you seem to forget about your Unicorns filled hellscape: When you start new trade deals, dont expect people to give you Unicorn filled trade deals. They will take advantage of you, dont delude yourself the USA will not take advantage, they will force you in really bad deal.
China and other countries will do the same...... But you've proven yourself uncapable to understand the real working of geopolitics and world trade, thus I think my easy explaination will fall to deaf ears.

[LeGin Tufnel]

It's a yougov poll /snip[/IMG]

I guess all we can say is so long, and thanks for all the fish?

Yes, but from the same study:



50% think it'd be a bad outcome.

Anyway, who the fuck are the 13% in the poll you linked who still "don't know". I mean, how can you possibly not have an opinion by now on what you think should happen. Stupid, stupid fuckers.

There are a lot of apt Douglas Adams quotes you could apply:

In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of [Brexiteers] very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

/sigh

Oh, well.

[Vermented]

Oh I know how much you will miss us, but don't bank on us sticking around, as I have been saying for ages what the politicians want is not the same as what the population want and a new survey reported today says...How most of Britain now wants a NO DEAL Brexit



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...AL-Brexit.html

The dailymail article used by @dribbles is based up on this https://yougov.co.uk survey which has the following outcome, straight from their website for more nuances:

Only 25% of people would consider a No Deal Brexit to be a positive outcome. Twice as many (50%) would see it as a negative, and 37% as a "very bad" outcome. Even among Leave voters, only half see a No Deal conclusion as positive.




Only 26% select No Deal when asked which outcome they would prefer. Less popular, at 11%, is the government's deal, while 12% would prefer a deal including a customs union and the single market. Just over a third (37%) would prefer a second referendum, ending with the UK remaining in the EU.




Only if the European Union refused a further extension, and Britain was faced with a stark choice between Remaining or No Deal, then by 44% to 42% people would prefer to leave. However, while other options remain on the table, it would be wrong to say 44% of people support No Deal yet.



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Thats the problem with this Brexit-discussion in the UK. To many dribbles's, twisters&turners and incompetence all across the board.

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@Nymrohd : thief! ;-)

[Shalcker]

Yes, but from the same study:



50% think it'd be a bad outcome.

And exactly 50% are not convinced it'd be a bad outcome...

...yeah, for YouGov self-selection that is surprisingly even split.

[Kallisto]

Anyway, who the fuck are the 13% in the poll you linked who still "don't know". I mean, how can you possibly not have an opinion by now on what you think should happen. Stupid, stupid fuckers.

There are a lot of apt Douglas Adams quotes you could apply:

In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of [Brexiteers] very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

/sigh

Oh, well.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were shy brexiteers (like Shy Tories). Have stupid views but scared of being called out for having them.

[Crispin]

Oh I know how much you will miss us, but don't bank on us sticking around, as I have been saying for ages what the politicians want is not the same as what the population want and a new survey reported today says...How most of Britain now wants a NO DEAL Brexit



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...AL-Brexit.html

There's a difference on missing someone, and appreciate their company.

I honestly am at the point that I'd rather see you crash out so the EU can focus on the EU, and not the current drama-queen UK. That being said, everyone wins with the UK remaining, everyone loses with the UK leaving; cba to join your "BUT U LOSE THE MOST!" nonsense.


I do however see a positive in the UK doing a hard brexit; the Americans forcing you into a shit deal where you accept their terms. After the pound crashes American goods and shipping cost will be cheaper, so a small yay for that. 51st state incoming

[Kallisto]

The dailymail article used by @dribbles is based up on this https://yougov.co.uk survey which has the following outcome, straight from their website for more nuances:

Only 25% of people would consider a No Deal Brexit to be a positive outcome. Twice as many (50%) would see it as a negative, and 37% as a "very bad" outcome. Even among Leave voters, only half see a No Deal conclusion as positive.




Only 26% select No Deal when asked which outcome they would prefer. Less popular, at 11%, is the government's deal, while 12% would prefer a deal including a customs union and the single market. Just over a third (37%) would prefer a second referendum, ending with the UK remaining in the EU.




Only if the European Union refused a further extension, and Britain was faced with a stark choice between Remaining or No Deal, then by 44% to 42% people would prefer to leave. However, while other options remain on the table, it would be wrong to say 44% of people support No Deal yet.



- - - Updated - - -

Thats the problem with this Brexit-discussion in the UK. To many dribbles's, twisters&turners and incompetence all across the board.

- - - Updated - - -
@Nymrohd : thief! ;-)

The thing is that Dribbles knows that the mail/express/sun has the level of trust you'd give to an obese man around a cake. Absolutely zero. Yet still runs to them like they are valid sources. So it's all about "Why not just go to yougov yourself and maybe you won't be considered a joke." reply when he goes to places where are objectively shown the be the 3 biggest bullshitters in writing newspapers.

[Crispin]

The thing is that Dribbles knows that the mail/express/sun has the level of trust you'd give to an obese man around a cake. Absolutely zero. Yet still runs to them like they are valid sources. So it's all about "Why not just go to yougov yourself and maybe you won't be considered a joke." reply when he goes to places where are objectively shown the be the 3 biggest bullshitters in writing newspapers.

I don't think he knows better tbh.

[dribbles]

The thing is that Dribbles knows that the mail/express/sun has the level of trust you'd give to an obese man around a cake. Absolutely zero. Yet still runs to them like they are valid sources. So it's all about "Why not just go to yougov yourself and maybe you won't be considered a joke." reply when he goes to places where are objectively shown the be the 3 biggest bullshitters in writing newspapers.

Oooh I like your obese man/cake analogy. But you didn't really define them.

Would I be right in assuming you would say the EU is the obese man and the nation state is the cake? I hope by trying to consume the UK the obese man makes himself sick.

I really like that, I'm going to re-use it elsewhere, cheers.

[AeneasBK]

Anyway, who the fuck are the 13% in the poll you linked who still "don't know". I mean, how can you possibly not have an opinion by now on what you think should happen. Stupid, stupid fuckers.

Complete lack of faith in ((the motives of) the sources of) any of the information regarding Brexit? Like I voted remain but I don't *know* if that was the best thing to do it was just my gut feeling; for all I *know* the EU might be about to collapse or fragment and staying in would have cost us more than leaving without any deal in place, not just financially but in terms of... I don't know what description would translate best but 'morale', 'spirit', 'happiness'. I don't *think* so, I hope that's come across from my posts; but I can't honestly say I *know*.

Oh, if that means I fall into the stupid stupid I guess I set myself up for it. But the discussion might have been more easily held in good faith years back if people had been more willing to admit that they probably "don't know" a lot about the topic.

[Crispin]

Oooh I like your obese man/cake analogy. But you didn't really define them.

Would I be right in assuming you would say the EU is the obese man and the nation state is the cake? I hope by trying to consume the UK the obese man makes himself sick.

I really like that, I'm going to re-use it elsewhere, cheers.

I honestly hope that you're so obtuse on purpose.

the mail/express/sun has the level of trust you'd give to an obese man around a cake

This short sentence has to be defined for you? Of course you run of assuming something completely different; no wonder this whole Brexit debate is completely lost on you.

[Vermented]

The thing is that Dribbles knows that the mail/express/sun has the level of trust you'd give to an obese man around a cake. Absolutely zero. Yet still runs to them like they are valid sources. So it's all about "Why not just go to yougov yourself and maybe you won't be considered a joke." reply when he goes to places where are objectively shown the be the 3 biggest bullshitters in writing newspapers.

I guess it's hard for the brexiteers finding out that they where warned for the impossibility to come out of brexit as winners, that they where manipulated into voting leave, that their pre-referendum brexit leaders all jumped ship (to search for their "special place in hell") meaning that the entire brexit-balloon is bursting right in their faces for the entire planet to see.

I guess it's true that you need to be a real man (or woman) to carry a loss with dignity.