Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Realitytrembles]

This is not at all accurate. In most cases, it is that the purported changes are bad ideas, seductive as the may be. And introduced changes need to be gradual.

It is entirely accurate. Conservatism is a fear of the future.

The changes are bad ideas you say? Opinion.

Changes need to be gradual? Why, exactly?

You say such people aren't conservatives. I say you (and establishment GOPers) have been fooling yourselves since Nixon. You made a deal with the devil (in the form of the Religious Right, southern racists, etc).

The bill has come due.

[Skroe]

It is entirely accurate. Conservatism is a fear of the future.

The changes are bad ideas you say? Opinion.

Changes need to be gradual? Why, exactly?

You say such people aren't conservatives. I say you (and establishment GOPers) have been fooling yourselves since Nixon. You made a deal with the devil (in the form of the Religious Right, southern racists, etc).

The bill has come due.

If you think Conservatives fear the future and that's what motivate us, it's a small wonder we've spent most of the past 30 years taking progressives to the shed and showing you who daddy is. You don't even understand the nature of your opposite, how the hell could you hope to devise a counter?

Fortunately, you are not most progressives. Plenty do get it.

And to be blunt, the "Southern Racists" and "Religious Right" predated my political activity (early 2000s) by about 30 years. I arrived at being a Conservative for my own reasons, and the existence of those groups doesn't change the fact that, to be blunt, I don't look at the progressive platform and think "you know, I think that's what I'm interested in, for myself and this country".


But I'm not seriously going to debate what constitutes Conservative policy with a guy whose foreign policy lacks object permanence and mostly traffics in slogans he picked up in movies and television, especially since Foreign policy is a principle rationale for my conservatism.

[Realitytrembles]

But I'm not seriously going to debate what constitutes Conservative policy with a guy whose foreign policy lacks object permanence and mostly traffics in slogans he picked up in movies and television, especially since Foreign policy is a principle rationale for my conservatism.

Then don't, but think about this.

My father voted Republican his entire life from age 18 until he voted for Trump ( he died about 4 months later). He was also a lifelong virulent racist and conservative Christian.

That is the kind of person that your kingdom of " go slow on changes, thats too fast, etc" is built on. Without their support, the GOP would have ceased to exist.

I've never voted republican in my life, and never will. Democrat, 3rd party, or independent all the way. Why? Because F people who want to slow down change. Old-fashioned ways, ingrained modes of thinking, and doing things because thats the way its been done are all crap.

They belong right in that box with my father's bones.

[Skroe]

Then don't, but think about this.

My father voted Republican his entire life from age 18 until he voted for Trump ( he died about 4 months later). He was also a lifelong virulent racist and conservative Christian.

That is the kind of person that your kingdom of " go slow on changes, thats too fast, etc" is built on. Without their support, the GOP would have ceased to exist.

I've never voted republican in my life, and never will. Democrat, 3rd party, or independent all the way. Why? Because F people who want to slow down change. Old-fashioned ways, ingrained modes of thinking, and doing things because thats the way its been done are all crap.

They belong right in that box with my father's bones.

I don't care about your life experiences, amigo. They are not relevant to me. And thus do not form my opinions.

That's called: being a different person.

[Bodakane]

This is not at all accurate. In most cases, it is that the purported changes are bad ideas, seductive as the may be. And introduced changes need to be gradual.

Fear certainly is the motivating factor of the "White MAGA Guy, am afraid of everything" gun cult deplorable crowd, but they're not conservatives. They just call themselves that because they define themselves against liberals.

Most of the conservatives on this forum aren't conservatives in the slightest. They're just anti-government, paranoid gun nuts who hate black people, brown people, LGBTs, the educated, the successful, and immigrants.... basically anyone who isn't their deplorable selves.

The word conservative has been so badly tainted by those people though. And to be honest, I'm getting sick of explaining it. I have no regrets about describing myself as a conservative. What progressives want for this country has, and has had, very little appeal to me. But it's becoming more and more problematic to describe myself as a conservative when the word is more and more associated with, well, you know the type.

WADR Skroe, I think when it is all said done, you are the exception. The vast majority of conservatives are not you, sadly. If they were, this country would be a better place, but right now, conservatives are exactly what I described deep down. Trump appeals to that inner fear monster. You are stronger than that, but it is the foundation of the typical present day conservative.

[Smitzelplix]

Trump spoke to an audience of American Jews and referred to Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu as 'your prime minister'

President Donald Trump seemed to refer to a crowd of Jewish Republicans as Israelites multiple times within a speech Saturday and railed against American lawmakers whom he said were not serving Israeli interests.

Trump referred to Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, as "your prime minister" while speaking at the Republican Jewish Coalition in Las Vegas, Nevada.

It's almost like Trump is implying that American Jews have dual loyalties, which is something that Rep. Ilhan Omar got in trouble for and is something that the above article talks about as well.

[Dacien]

It is entirely accurate. Conservatism is a fear of the future.

Conservatism is the idea that some things are perfect the way they are. That there are some institutions that are the proper and good natural order. Conservatives don't fear change any more than a social justice advocate is afraid of marginalized individuals being taken advantage of. They don't fear it; they simply understand that one is the appropriate way of things, and the other is not. For many things, there is a proper way, a correct and natural order. What is already in it's proper form does not need to "progress" toward something different.

This is essentially what conservatism is, extrapolated out to social issues.

[Templar 331]

Well, Trump is freaking out about illegal leaks again.



https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...88062884954114

The contradiction within the tweet is real.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/07/polit...ent/index.html

California Rep. Devin Nunes, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said Sunday he was planning to send eight criminal referrals to Attorney General William Barr as soon as this week.

Appearing on Fox's "Sunday Morning Futures," Nunes said five of the referrals are related to lying to Congress, misleading Congress and leaking classified information.

The other referrals, Nunes said, are allegations of lying to the FISA court that approves foreign surveillance warrants, manipulating intelligence and what he described as a "global leak referral," which Nunes said wasn't tied to one individual.

And his personal ball washer isn't far behind.

[Breccia]

Hey remember NAFTA 1.0.0.2? No? Neither does anyone else.

Nothing's been made official yet, and time isn't anyone's best friend. In particular, Canada has elections in October. While their election process isn't as, well, flamboyant as the US's, it does take a few months. If it's not ratified by June, it's likely to be pushed off until the people have their say -- and that say is looking to be "No, eh?" And there are still the steel tariffs hanging over both country's heads. Trump threatened Mexico with even greater sanctions --

"Yeah, but that was six months ago."

It was Thursday.

If for any reason Mexico stops apprehending and bringing the illegals back to where they came from, the U.S. will be forced to Tariff at 25% all cars made in Mexico and shipped over the Border to us. If that doesn't work, which it will, I will close the Border. This will supersede USMCA,

The odds of Mexico ratifying the USMCA, if Trump applies this new tariff, are zero.

"Yes, but Trump gave them a year! Right?"

Yes, and Mexico could easily wait a full year. I mean, at this point, why not?

"To me, that would kind of be an incentive for Mexico to not move so quickly to ratify the USMCA," said Welles Orr, who served as assistant US trade representative under President George H.W. Bush.

Anyhow, there are currently no public plans to remove Canada and/or Mexico from the list of countries subject to steel tariffs. It's possible that's being dangled as an incentive, but it's not enough -- and not even our own legislative body has signed it.

At time of writing, this is yet another Trump promise ending in abject failure.

- - - Updated - - -

Obama: I have agreed with the UN and Iran to the Iran Nuclear Deal. They refuse to make nuclear weapons, and we ease sanctions on them. They can have all the nuclear energy for peaceful purposes they want.
Congress: Sounds reasonable, we don't want murdering terrorists to have nuclear weapons.
North Korea: We want nuclear weapons.
Obama: You can't have them. And we're imposing sanctions because you're making them.
Trump: I'm ending the Iran Nuclear Deal. Iran is clearly making nuclear weapons.
UN: But Iran has fulfilled their end of the bargain. We've been sending in inspectors.
Trump: I'm ending it anyhow.
North Korea: We want nuclear weapons.
Trump: You can't have them.
North Korea: Fine, we'll give them up, but only if there are no inspections.
Trump: I'm taking NK at their word.
Congress: No, that's stupid. We have them on satellite.
Trump: But maybe just a little --
Congress: No.
Trump: But they made a fast food burger place for me! They threw a parade!
Congress: No. No murdering terrorists with nukes.
Trump: Okay, fine.
Saudi Arabia: We want nuclear energy and nuclear weapons.
Trump: Okay.
Congress: What the fuck?
Trump: Okay, you can have nuclear energy, but no nuclear weapons.
Saudi Arabia: We want both.
Trump: Okay.
Congress: What the double fuck?
Trump: Fine. While we work out the details, US companies can share nuclear energy tech with you whether you give up nuclear weapon ambitions or not.
Congress: What the triple fuck? With fries?

Lawmakers are now demanding answers. They particularly want to know whether any of the approvals came after the October murder of U.S.-based journalist Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

“First we want the information from [the Department of Energy], and we’re demanding it. We should get it,” said Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.), the ranking member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. “And I think it’s critical to know exactly how this happened, when it happened and particularly were you doing this after Khashoggi?”

Congress has been re-evaluating the U.S.-Saudi relationship since Khashoggi’s death, with lawmakers blaming Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman for the killing.

Propelled in part by anger over Khashoggi’s death, Congress last week sent Trump a resolution that would end U.S. military support for the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen’s civil war.

Trump is expected to veto the resolution, making it the second veto of his presidency, and lawmakers are plotting their next steps to confront him for supporting the Saudis.

One potential avenue for expressing that anger is the administration’s nuclear talks with Riyadh.

Man, it's a good thing we have some checks and balances.

[Skroe]

Conservatism is the idea that some things are perfect the way they are.
This is essentially what conservatism is, extrapolated out to social issues.

This isn't even remotely correct either. And you're using 'natural order' in a way that screams "I wikipedia'd this".

Glad to see you emerged out of your bunker-safe-space. I assume the licken' you got after the midterms was healed by the Barr Whitewash. We're still taking your President from you. Or hell, he gets to stay President, and you and the rest of the cult get to watch him be a glorified ribbon cutter in front of strip malls, and reduced to signing budgets Nancy, Chuck and Mitch write.

- - - Updated - - -

WADR Skroe, I think when it is all said done, you are the exception. The vast majority of conservatives are not you, sadly. If they were, this country would be a better place, but right now, conservatives are exactly what I described deep down. Trump appeals to that inner fear monster. You are stronger than that, but it is the foundation of the typical present day conservative.

I'm far, far less the exception than you think. Again, I was a regular at local and regional Republican activities for almost a decade, until I left the party last June. Being a Republican and a Conservative wasn't just a label I assume by casual affinity. It was something I took seriously, participated in and donated him. I was one of the last, lets call them "my group" (really, just friends, neighbors and people I had come to know over the years) who left the party. Most left when Trump became the nominee or in the first year. I stuck it out. I am not alone in this: the Republican Party has emphatically shrunk. The question is, has it shrunk the right places. It doesn't need to shrink in Massachusetts or South Carolina. It very much needs to shrink in the rust belt, Arizona and Florida.

The iternet crazies, which we're regularly subjected to, and the television crazies, are not the 'rule'. Most Republicans are formerly pretty decent people who just happen to believe things that are, well, nowdays pretty much wrong and highly morally compromised in sticking by President Racist. Or more often they're turned off by the marketing / messaging (but not necessarily the underlying point) that Democrats make. This is why Democrats always win when they run on Health Care. Because only the hard right fringe disagree with much of what Democrats say on the topic.

I've said before, I'm going to vote for even Saint Bernie I, because he is not Trump and while I think he'd be a terrible President, will not be one that puts this country at grave danger like Trump does every day. Don't get me wrong... I'm going to belly laugh for four years while signs budgets Chuck, Nancy and Mitch write that are full of stealth bombers but decidedly light on Free College For All, but I'm truly committed to voting for a progressive Democrat to save this country from a fascist compromised sexual predator. For me, that's an easy choice.

But for too many on the right it is not. But they can be reached.

If Democrats talk about Healthcare and Jobs, and nothing but Helathcare and Jobs, they'll win. Don't talk about LGBT issues. Don't talk about women's rights issues. Don't talk about the progressive policy du jour. Sure, do that if you win, but take a page out of successful Republican tactics and don't talk about all the things you wanna do... just do them when you win, and win utilizing the means that will produce the best outcome.

Because many conservatives, again, while deeply morally compromised due to Trump, are not Stephen Miller or well, the Gun worshiping nuts you see on the internet. They can be reached. You don't have to keep them. You just have to rent them, to beat Trump.

[Skroe]

What????

Conservatism is about changes only coming slowly once there is confidence that the consequences are understood and can be managed and after helping establish a mandate for them. It is COMPLEMENTARY to progress by serving as the control function to creative calls for change. Slow down does not mean stop moving. It is about conserving society and traditions by moving forward at a pace that won't break them, not about placing everything in a bubble.

What you describe is just decadence.

That moment when a liberal understands conservatism more than the guy playing one one on a forum. Very well put.

Christ almighty.

If anything, because of "conservatives" focus on anti-intellectualism and rebuking science, they are singularly incompetent of being conservatives since the function they are mean to fullfill is first and foremost a scientific and intellectual one. They have pushed all the people suited for the task to the other side of the fence and thus allowed parties like the Democrats to actually bring proposals with all the necessary control work already done, because the people who would likely have been conservatives otherwise long joined them in disgust.

Maybe I'm just tired but I'm having a hard time following the first sentence of this. I will note though that historically, conservatism was the political philosophy of the educated, the professional, the scientist, the engineer, and the elite, while liberalism was historically the political philosophy of the working class.

The last remnant of this - and it's a considerable one - is the suburbs. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative middle class Americans living in the suburbs. Trump won on them in 2016 and lost big on them in 2018. This used to be a powerful republican constituency, but it's floating out of Trump's orbit.

The problem with writing off all conservatives is it writes off these people that the Democrats can basically pick off from Republicans.


Clearly now, the Democratic Party is the party of the educated and the professional. But what of limited government / state-control focused conservatives like me? As I've said, I will never vote for the racists on the right. I'm done with them and they and their cult can go fuck themselves in the pits of hell. Bernie Sanders' wishlist is such a joke though. And it's a joke people don't see it as a joke just because they like hearing it. On the right you have the worst Americans there are. On the left, you have people who willfully do not care how sausage is made, and think that wanting something badly enough matters in the slightest (spoilers: it doesn't).

Ironically, the revival of "third way"-ism very well may be 4 years of Bernie Sanders haplessly (but harmlessly) speechifying and writing checks he can't cash after 4 years of Trump being the Worst President in American history while writing similar checks too.

America's "Crisis in its Third Century" is fucking stupid.

[Adam Jensen]

Many Republicans, including Collins of course,

As a resident of Maine, and I know I say this every time she comes up, but . . . I fucking hate Susan Collins.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Well, Trump is freaking out about illegal leaks again.



https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...88062884954114

The contradiction within the tweet is real.

I continue to wonder how Trump can call something an "illegal leak" if it's fake? If it's real and gets out into the public, it's a leak and potentially illegal. If it's fake, it's not illegal nor is it a leak.

Wait nevermind, I don't wonder at all.

[Skroe]

Well since I used quotation marks I am obviously alluding to the conservatives like most here or really the majority of the current GOP base.
Actual conservatives should long have not felt welcome in the Republican party. Probably all the way back at Nixon, when the GOP fully abdicated responsibility for the control function in a democracy by pardoning a crook but at the very least when the Tea Party movement rapidly transformed into a revisionist, nativist and anti-intellectual hydra rather than a movement for small government as it purported and the GOP was forced to embrace it or have its traditional candidates primaried.
I am wary that there is space for conservatives in the long term among the Democrats. On the short term, if they want to keep the numbers they got in the mid terms they will want to pander to conservatives by fielding enough moderate candidates. But the early California primary will be harsh on a moderate presidential candidate and there is a pressure for the party to move to a social democrat center/center-left position from its current center-right position.

Yep a gree.

I think the more likely outcome is that simply a lot more people will end up becoming ACTUAL independents who will choose party depending on personal red lines e.g. a few will always stick to the GOP because they are against abortion which overrides their dislike for anything else. That could mean a more "purple" map and even worse, an electoral reality that requires even more funds to sustain. Or possibly lower participation in elections due to disillusionment.

Yep agree. Most likely.

Also when the fuck did I become a liberal??? I'm a neo-liberal when it comes to international relations (with a strong touch of constructivist), a social liberal but economically and politically I am a conservative.

Apologies. Sometimes its just really hard to keep track, there are so many voices here.

[Mormolyce]

Trump spoke to an audience of American Jews and referred to Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu as 'your prime minister'

It's almost like Trump is implying that American Jews have dual loyalties, which is something that Rep. Ilhan Omar got in trouble for and is something that the above article talks about as well.

Can't wait for the Israeli lobby to get super mad about this.

Haha.

[Acidbaron]

That moment when a liberal understands conservatism more than the guy playing one one on a forum. Very well put.

Christ almighty.

It is rather obvious the amount of people that become very silent when i ask them one simple question 'What conservative believe do you stand and live by?' is rather large on this forum.

For them it is just a for now temporary justification to be an asshole, nothing more really.

[Skroe]

It is rather obvious the amount of people that become very silent when i ask them one simple question 'What conservative believe do you stand and live by?' is rather large on this forum.

For them it is just a for now temporary justification to be an asshole, nothing more really.

Yup. it's as I've been saying about this place. Most of these so-called conservatives are just annoyed / pissed off by something some progressives did somewhere or stand for. Wrap that up with some paranoia, some lack of education, some racism and a lot of gun worship, and they start calling themselves "conservatives" because they're so fucking uninformed to define themselves by what they envision that they're the opposite of. Never mind conservatism actually stands for its own things.

My take away from watching conservatives on this forums are that (1) guns give an illusion of control to rather pathetic people with little control over their lives, and the most remote threat of losing that sense of control drives them absolutely ape shit, (2) to most of them it's really, really important to be able to use the N-word freely and direct it at black people.

That basically sums up 9 out of 10 so-called conservatives here.

[Acidbaron]

Yup. it's as I've been saying about this place. Most of these so-called conservatives are just annoyed / pissed off by something some progressives did somewhere or stand for. Wrap that up with some paranoia, some lack of education, some racism and a lot of gun worship, and they start calling themselves "conservatives" because they're so fucking uninformed to define themselves by what they envision that they're the opposite of. Never mind conservatism actually stands for its own things.

My take away from watching conservatives on this forums are that (1) guns give an illusion of control to rather pathetic people with little control over their lives, and the most remote threat of losing that sense of control drives them absolutely ape shit, (2) to most of them it's really, really important to be able to use the N-word freely and direct it at black people.

That basically sums up 9 out of 10 so-called conservatives here.

Yup, it's the anti-PC movement hijacked by people with a very limited vocabulary and education, where actual opinions and arguments have been replaced by rather unimaginative meme's. Best part about all this is their need to be offensive for the simple reason to be edgy but wait till you trigger them, their need of a safe space is probably larger than their need for some fake sense of control.

And the few with a bit higher education or vocabulary are embraced as prophets, plenty of those on this side of ocean also.

[Fuiking]

Hey, atleast you dont have to deal with an ''intellectual'' anti-intellectual bigoted rascist (HELLO GUY WITH TOILET SURNAME - Thierry Baudet) who's a major populist. And a fascist. And pretends to be smart by throwing around highly intellectual words which means everything.. and nothing.

Most of Trumps words come across to me as some random troll from another country posts them randomly in the hope of triggering people.... Baudets sentence shitting meanwhile goes into the ''owl of minverva'' type of shitposting.

[Skroe]

Hey, atleast you dont have to deal with an ''intellectual'' anti-intellectual bigoted rascist (HELLO GUY WITH TOILET SURNAME - Thierry Baudet) who's a major populist. And a fascist. And pretends to be smart by throwing around highly intellectual words which means everything.. and nothing.

Most of Trumps words come across to me as some random troll from another country posts them randomly in the hope of triggering people.... Baudets sentence shitting meanwhile goes into the ''owl of minverva'' type of shitposting.

Trump is indeed, basically a shitposter who escaped the internet.