What to do with the Horde and its players after BFA?

[mickybrighteyes]

Do we just ignore everything the Horde player and various Horde racial leaders were involved with?

Yes much like how the players ignore most events and political lines to begin with. ON an individual level we'd all just be going with whatever organization gave us the best results anyways. That's how many of the neutral factions form and continue to exist post WoW story arc.

What is Blizzard going to do to the Horde to explain why Dalaran, Cenarion Circle or every organization like them would allow the Horde and Player PC who burned civilians to death to help them kill 8 mobs or deliver so-and-so package?

The same argument that is allowing alliance players to waltz around Dalaran after the purge... since the targets of those killings weren't all sunreavers and we still wound up using Dalaran as a central hub later with a few new shop keepers and NO ONE really talking about the time the [insert leader of order hall] went about handling the old enchanting trainer.

Logically wouldn't the Cenarion Circle be hostile to Horde players?

This assumes the Cenarion circle as an organization cares about teldrassil specifically or is already entirely night elven. Prolly comparable to asking why booty bay, gadgetzan, everlook, or ratchet aren't hostile to the alliance. Given their first and second war ties to the original horde invasion and later on events concerning the bilgewater.

Logically these neutral factions would either view each person interacting with them as an individual and accept them unless the individual gives them a valid reason to ignore or turn hostile toward them.... else they'd not be neutral to begin with. Or they';re going to be a faux neutral organization and only interact with one faction anyways like Jaina's purge era Dalaran.

[Toho]

Blizzard wrote the Horde as villains back in WC1 and WC2. But the Horde haven't been in the villain set since WC3 was released

Teldrassil happened just this year mate.
Point is the Player and Sylvanas hand in hand burned it down.
The Horde continues to support Sylvanas and everything she does.

I am simply stating.
For the 5th time now?

That Neutral organizations should no longer host both factions.
So organizations like Dalaran, Cenarion Circle, Knights of the Silver Hand and etc... in any future expansion should no longer host both factions.

The Horde get their own dalaran or some other equivalent.
Due to Horde's actions neither faction works together again.

The Horde may not be "evil" but they do evil things. There must be consequences for it.

@mickybrighteyes
Yes I made those assumptions.
I don't think its alright for the player that participated in War of Thorns to turn up to Tyrande or Malfurion for some random quest in the future.
It shouldn't happen.
Or anyone else related to those races. I doubt Druids charged with protecting world trees would let someone that burned down a world tree a pass.
Even now in Warfronts the Knights of Silverhand are fighting AGAINST the Horde.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The question you need to ask yourself is really.. what can they do that looks great on a power point presentation but requires very little funding or effort to pull off. Then, my friend, you will have your answer.

[mickybrighteyes]

Why "Technically"? EVERY faction in WoW had treated noncompliance or failure to accept their own manifest destiny of expansion as hostility. Just like most civilization on Earth have had before liberalism and the death of mercantilism.

because some of that hostility was never acknowledge by the story afterwards

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@mickybrighteyes
Yes I made those assumptions.
I don't think its alright for the player that participated in War of Thorns to turn up to Tyrande or Malfurion for some random quest in the future.
It shouldn't happen.
Or anyone else related to those races. I doubt Druids charged with protecting world trees would let someone that burned down a world tree a pass.
Even now in Warfronts the Knights of Silverhand are fighting AGAINST the Horde.

Well... the druids have actually torched more world trees than the rest of us already so they probably aren't the best examples of people to go to about being mad about torching trees. Also the circle isn't charged with defending all world trees they are charged with defending nature. Keep in mind that Teldrassil is also not a natural formation and would likely fall under a different category than... say... vordrassil or nordrassil (other world trees to keep in mind).

Somehting I don't understand about the Silver Hand at this point is why they're in Arathi taking sides to begin with since there wasn't any story or lore that I was aware of on that besides Turalyon showed up... I'm going to guess this is one of those flavor things someone tossed in without paying attention unless more info comes forward rather than go with using it as proof of horde evils.

edit:

also this whole notion that horde does evil things and therefore must have consequences while tlaking about consistency is a load of horse shit.

There were never any real consequences for any evil acts as seen in game EXCEPT when horde show off. We've only ever attacked horde cities in retaliation. We've only seen a trial for a horde leader. It's only ever been horde leadership called to be held accountable for anything.

Jaina might be the only person to really face some real punishment for anything and it's not even for something done during this war. And now void elves are interacting with her JUST FINE when theoretically they were likely to have been subject to her purge during the MoP era.

[Carll]

(mostly joking)
Heres whats going to happen having it already kind of have happened at the end of siege of Orgrimmar and again at the end of Hellfire Citidel. Calia Menethil is going to show up and "Purify" Sylvanus into a different kind of light bound and then shes going to see real honor and blah blah blah and finally make some big noble Gesture to redeem herself which will only show when Anduin lets a single tear go down his cheek.
(mostly joking)

[Budong]

You guys still think the Alliance is going to win the war? Do you think Blizz would allow one faction to win over another, alienating half of their paying playerbase? Is that air you're breathing?

[Toho]

I think I pretty much disagree with everything you just said including your assumptions and conclusions.
So lets just agree to disagree because we are totally not on the same page.

You guys still think the Alliance is going to win the war? Do you think Blizz would allow one faction to win over another, alienating half of their paying playerbase? Is that air you're breathing?

We are at third expansion after MoP.
I think WoW is going to be fine giving Alliance another """""""win"""""""

[Budong]

I think I pretty much disagree with everything you just said including your assumptions and conclusions.
So lets just agree to disagree because we are totally not on the same page.



We are at third expansion after MoP.
I think WoW is going to be fine giving Alliance another """""""win"""""""

No one side will ever win. Both sides will win battles but neither will win the war. It hasn't happened in lore since WoW began because in an mmo you can't force half of your customers into situations where they will lose to the other half or you will lose half of your customers. It's why you can't tell as engaging stories in mmos as you can in other rpgs. You need to make everyone happy to keep that $$$ rolling in.

[mickybrighteyes]

I don't know what page you're own trying to argue we need consistency because someone was written as the bad guy....

we've never gotten real comeuppance in the story except for Garrosh or the random BBEG from outside the factions.

[Aucald]

Teldrassil happened just this year mate.
Point is the Player and Sylvanas hand in hand burned it down.
The Horde continues to support Sylvanas and everything she does.

I am simply stating.
For the 5th time now?

That Neutral organizations should no longer host both factions.
So organizations like Dalaran, Cenarion Circle, Knights of the Silver Hand and etc... in any future expansion should no longer host both factions.

The Horde get their own dalaran or some other equivalent.
Due to Horde's actions neither faction works together again.

The Horde may not be "evil" but they do evil things. There must be consequences for it.

@mickybrighteyes
Yes I made those assumptions.
I don't think its alright for the player that participated in War of Thorns to turn up to Tyrande or Malfurion for some random quest in the future.
It shouldn't happen.
Or anyone else related to those races. I doubt Druids charged with protecting world trees would let someone that burned down a world tree a pass.
Even now in Warfronts the Knights of Silverhand are fighting AGAINST the Horde.

Teldrassil doesn't make the entirety of the Horde evil, either. I don't agree with it, and many in the Horde don't agree with it, but the Horde isn't a monolith that can be judged on the actions of a handful of leaders anymore than the Alliance would become 100% evil as a group if the roles were reversed. Jaina planning to kill every man, woman, and child in Orgrimmar out of revenge for Theramore doesn't make the Alliance evil. As for your point about neutral organizations I kind of don't have a real opinion on it - it's up to them if they want to open their doors to a faction they've historically not agreed with or not. We can personally agree or disagree with their reasoning, but it's not that big a deal either way. Sometimes there are concerns that go above and beyond tribalism - problems from an outside context that require solutions that make one-time enemies cooperate out of mutual self-preservation. Most of the instances where the Alliance and Horde have cooperated are the result of that very dynamic - the threat of the Legion, the threat of the Lich King, of Deathwing, etc. etc. Those problems, at the time, were just bigger than the faction conflict - and so it made sense for old hatreds to be set aside for a time to ensure the continuance of life itself.

BfA, to my knowledge, marks the first case where this doesn't prove to be a factor - what with the Alliance and Horde at each other's throats despite the fact that the world itself is dying beneath their feet. I would think this would actually please you specifically, given your stance on cooperation. Personally I think it's beyond stupid of the factions to bicker and fight with one another while Azeroth dies, but I guess it's also quite realistic at the end of the day.

[Toho]

There is a difference between planning and actually doing it.
AND jaina only wanted to do it out vengeance for what Garrosh did.

Eye for an Eye.

Teldrassil was no revenge plot. It was purely out of malice and self interest.

There is a difference.
And every Horde leader follows her lead and supports her actions.
So yeah. Again. The Horde is not evil like the Legion per say but they keep doing evil actions and your false equivalencies arent changing those facts.

[Super Dickmann]

BfA, to my knowledge, marks the first case where this doesn't prove to be a factor - what with the Alliance and Horde at each other's throats despite the fact that the world itself is dying beneath their feet. I would think this would actually please you specifically, given your stance on cooperation. Personally I think it's beyond stupid of the factions to bicker and fight with one another while Azeroth dies, but I guess it's also quite realistic at the end of the day.

While the canonicity of the Borean Tundra to Dragonblight part of Northrend is dubious because of Chronicle, the Alliance and Horde were at least as far as the Forsaken were concerned in conflict from the very start of WotLK and at open war from Wrathgate on, with zero cooperation. They don't help each other with Yogg, they fight each other at Trial of the Crusader and they even fight each other in ICC itself. Ditto with Cataclysm, where the factions take a BFA-esque role of doing fuck all to save the world while Thrall and the Earthen Ring deal with it, up until the absolute end when a Horde and Alliance gunship help him out.

@Toho

I have no issue with any of your suggestions. The sooner the Kirin Tor, Silver Hand and so on can go back to being exclusively Alliance or preferably exclusively human/high elf the better.

[Toho]

Agreed.
They should all go Alliance and Horde to get their own organizations and content.

Neither faction should ever cooperate in the same way ever again imo.

[mickybrighteyes]

There is a difference between planning and actually doing it.
AND jaina only wanted to do it out vengeance for what Garrosh did.

Eye for an Eye.

Tell that to the shop keepers and civilians who literally did NOTHING to get throne from their homes, robbed, and killed.... That's not eye for an eye because Jaina went after people not related to the event. She also caried that eye for an eye on into Horde is Horde and fighting or spiting horde at every turn (while providing commentary when turning in quests even.

Teldrassil was no revenge plot. It was purely out of malice and self interest.

Techncially it was a spur of the moment shift when the original plan fell through but doesn't change the fact that it happened. IT's amusing that it's not treated as retaliation since it's shortly following attacks on the warchief by a rogue agent and hostile actions against civilian workers... both actions that also did not receive any comeuppance either. But I guess when people can wave the "we're justified in our actions" flag they get a pass to literally murder people... Like what happened up in the pleasure palace because some dude didn't like the color of the grass.

There is a difference.
And every Horde leader follows her lead and supports her actions.
So yeah. Again. The Horde is not evil like the Legion per say but they keep doing evil actions and your false equivalencies arent changing those facts.

Oh yes there is a very clear difference here. It seems only SOMETIMES the paypack is justified in getting dsicussed and mainly when it's directed towards a certain red banner instead.


edit:
it's amusing to sit here an watch someone try and argue that we need consistency in writing to showcase villainous actions get punished.... because that wouldn't be consistent with the narratives told thus far at all. A more correct statement would be that we need it to be consistent because the horde is to always get punished in these naratives.

That's why we can watch the alliance army raze voldunai caravans and watch the void practitioners slaughter whatever for their void plans and no one bats an eye. invade a nation with unconfirmed intel and assassinate leadership while acting as the World Police as instated by themselves and mostly just look out for themselves because anything they can't subjugate is a threat first and possible ally whenever they remember diplomacy is an option (which seems to never be the case unless they were already in the alliance at some point... basically all their allied races)

edit2:

also IS there any info on why the Silver Hand showed up in the warfronts? just seems odd to pick a side in the current story simply because turalyon showed up.

[Grazrug]

Agreed.
They should all go Alliance and Horde to get their own organizations and content.

Neither faction should ever cooperate in the same way ever again imo.

No, Blizzard will force you into neutrality again and you WILL like it. No take backs. End of deal.

[Malikath]

this, for sylvanus and her supporters.
afterwards the remainder of the horde should be disbanded and be confined in their current home territories on pain of death.
potential induction into the alliance for the tauren and the darkspear trolls can follow since they've shown amicability towards life in general.

- - - Updated - - -

also IS there any info on why the Silver Hand showed up in the warfronts? just seems odd to pick a side in the current story simply because turalyon showed up.

the bitch queen is raising undead, there's been good enough reason for them to oppose her since CATA.
along with the ebon blade.

[Grazrug]

this, for sylvanus and her supporters.
afterwards the remainder of the horde should be disbanded and be confined in their current home territories on pain of death.
potential induction into the alliance for the tauren and the darkspear trolls can follow since they've shown amicability towards life in general.

- - - Updated - - -



the bitch queen is raising undead, there's been good enough reason for them to oppose her since CATA.
along with the ebon blade.

You and the rest of the unhealthy hate squad against Sylvanas are truly annoying. Reported your post for real life threats of death. I will not be told to just die on a hole just because you hate any ficitonal character. Have fun being banned.

[mickybrighteyes]

the bitch queen is raising undead, there's been good enough reason for them to oppose her since CATA.
along with the ebon blade.

Then why weren't they hostile or taking action prior. Why is there no horde hostile interaction in the storyline between cataclysm and bfa? The first time this comes up is the warfront which is a bit awkward in the example of tauren/bloodelf orderhall leaders now cutting down silverhand members in arathi.

So again... conjecture and bias aside. IS there any info? Or is this just Turalyon was in charge for teh event so they tossed in some human units to go with him?

edit:
is there a short bit of story somewhere or are we just going with another plot whole about the fragmenting of the orderhall that was present in legion?

[Toho]

There is no story.
Presumably they joined Turalyon because he used to lead them before he was lost in outland.

Now they fight on the side that dont burn whole city populations alive.
Who would have though Paladins would do that?

[mickybrighteyes]

There is no story.

there should be. Cause it's rather abrupt to go from chummy and unified to split with no information.

Presumably they joined Turalyon because he used to lead them before he was lost in outland.

would make sense, but even a little snippet of something from a journal or dialogue with members would be a nice addition to showcase things more than the dialogue spouted off in the warfront.

Now they fight on the side that dont burn whole city populations alive.
Who would have though Paladins would do that?

Then why side with Stormwind in this case? I know Teldrassil's fresh in your mind but you seem to think that's the only time someones gone genocidal.

Overall, it's odd how they basically destroyed Taylor'd this particular orderhall offscreen... but at least they explained what happened to Taylor.