Sylvanas and Garrosh similarities ( Polygon 8.2 Interview with Ion Hazzikostas )

[Friendlyimmolation]

It's funny because the players are the ones that free Nzoth and end up being his champion yet people are still nailing On Sylvanas lol.

Players really are stupid fucks, doing whatever the person with the yellow exclamation point tells them to do.

[Grazrug]

It's funny because the players are the ones that free Nzoth and end up being his champion yet people are still nailing On Sylvanas lol.

The hate obsession with Sylvanas has become toxic for the community truly and really. It's a no brainer.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Trial but they never said anything about not killing her or pulling an AU Grom

[Tojara]

If I had to guess she just gives up on the Horde and joins or makes her own unique faction. Either assimilating with the remnants of the Scourge led by Bolvar, or usurping Bolvar and taking control of everything herself. Basically the Iron Horde, but with Undead this time. Whether she becomes that expansions Gul'dan or Archimonde is probably the only question. So yeah, WoTLK 2.0.

The only major problem with this is what area they would actually use for such an expansion. WoD was easy because they used time travel as an excuse to explore a pretty different world in Draenor. I doubt they would want to do that again however. That leaves you with a complete revamp of Northerend (huge task to modernize it honestly), which also has problems because how much could it honestly change to feel that different in the 10 years since we've been there? Another alternative would be to revamp most of the zones so they reflect current state of the lore (but not really functional zones as far as questing goes), and have completely new zones. They could quite literally do Old Gods/Void, with the Undead in a single expansion by having a good portion of the expansion taking place underground in places like Azjol'Nerub as well.

All that said, I think the similarities between Garrosh and Sylvanas are simply the faction they led doesn't share the same vision they do. In their eyes, they aren't willing to do what must be done so they seek other avenues. Iron Horde or Scourge 2.0.

[Sylar Hao]

I'm pretty sure that Sylvanas from the future of another timeline appears through a portal asking for help for whatever reason. This Sylvanas isn't undead and confronts "herself", while battling Khadgar appears and reopens that same portal and with the help of all cities leaders undead Sylvanas is sent through the portal and sealed back there. New Sylvanas becomes neutral leader of both factions. 2 expansions later: Wrath of the Hextech Quinn.

[Artelia]

I think this web is only one where people use one sentence from dialog and then they just QQ and outcry everything around until they are sure that everybody agree.

Ion actually said some neat things that make me hyped a bit. But some people just want see Blizzard burn.

[Aucald]

Players really are stupid fucks, doing whatever the person with the yellow exclamation point tells them to do.

I assume that with the whole talk of a "mark" that the PC bears, that functions apparently like a curse, that some form of magical coercion or mind control is involved. Who really knows, though.

[Hubbl3]

From main page:

Garrosh acutally wanted to make the Horde strong and independent while Sylvi just does it for the lulz?

[Super Dickmann]

Garrosh acutally wanted to make the Horde strong and independent while Sylvi just does it for the lulz?

I can see it already:

"Sylvanas is different from Garrosh because Garrosh did nothing wrong."

[Hubbl3]

I can see it already:

But didn't the one bronze dragon say that our Garrosh was basically the worse Garrosh in all time lines and the multiverse ever?

[Super Dickmann]

But didn't the one bronze dragon say that our Garrosh was basically the worse Garrosh in all time lines and the multiverse ever?

Yes, but these are the people who helped Sylvanas enlist the Iron Horde from another dimension despite their job being to stop this kind of thing so I wouldn't really take them very seriously.

[Aucald]

Garrosh acutally wanted to make the Horde strong and independent while Sylvi just does it for the lulz?

Garrosh didn't want to make the Horde strong out of some sense of altruism to the Horde - he wanted to lionize himself because of his own issues stemming from childhood abandonment and the lingering sense that his legacy was one of failure and corruption. The only way he could prove his own strength was via opposition to something. He chose the Alliance (rather arbitrarily in light of all the things that faced his people at the time), and that same opposition was how he faced anything that ever confronted him that wasn't completely in-line with his beliefs. This is why he surrounded himself with sycophants and yes-men like Malkorok that slowly and inexorably made him blind and deaf to his own approval rating within the Horde.

Garrosh essentially lacked a strong center and self-image, and expended far too much energy trying to craft a legacy to set him apart from his own father's history. This drive was so deep that it eventually compelled him to abandon Azeroth entirely and try to recapture his own childhood in a bizarre fashion during the events of WoD - trying to rewrite his father's own mistakes and somehow undo the idea of the tainted association that haunted him all his life. Even in death Garrosh found no real sense of actualization, instead opting to rave and rail against his previous adopted father-figure Thrall about being abandoned (an ironic echo of his childhood plight in Garadar).

[Powerogue]

I think we're looking at a Suramar situation, where they borrow plot elements (in that case, elves with a magic well stolen away by the Legion needing our help) but taking it in a very different direction.

[Jastall]

Yes, but these are the people who helped Sylvanas enlist the Iron Horde from another dimension despite their job being to stop this kind of thing so I wouldn't really take them very seriously.

Not making sense is indeed a bronze dragon trademark. I still don't know why it was so necessary for us to allow Arthas to murderdeathkill everyone in Lordaeron and Quel'thalas and bring forth the Legion. Or why any Alliance character would be OK with helping Medivh open the Dark Portal.

As for Sylvanas, what makes me think she might bite is the that she's on the bad side of beings bigger than the factions. Bolvar is her enemy by default, and she's so far up Bwonsamdi (and probably his boss by extension)'s shit list that he's ready to give up his hold over Zandalar and its royal family -a once in a lifetime opportunity even for him!- in exchange for her head. Garrosh was wanted dead by the factions (and imprisoned by Mr. Zhu) and that was more or less it. By the time 8.2 settles I'd wager Nathanos and the diehard Forsaken are the only people on the entire planet that won't want to see her hang by her own entrails.

Maybe it's all just a big red herring. But even accounting for the customary Blizzard incompetence I don't think this piece of lore was put in for no reason.

[therealstegblob]

No trial. Good. Because that was stupid.

Give me one reason why the trial was stupid. Go for it.

[Maljinwo]

Give me one reason why the trial was stupid. Go for it.

"Let's not kill this obviously evil guy who tried to wipe out every non-orc from the world and instead give him a trial because some guys claim to have suffered more than everyone else"

[therealstegblob]

"Let's not kill this obviously evil guy who tried to wipe out every non-orc from the world and instead give him a trial because some guys claim to have suffered more than everyone else"

Yeah, thought so. You missed the entire fucking point of everything concerning the trial, lolololololol.

The purpose of the trial wasn't to try to prove if Garrosh was guilty or not, it was to decide to what extent he was guilty (for instance, were members of the Kor'kron guilty for doing stuff like blowing up the inn in Razor's Hill? Were they acting on their own, or were they following orders? If following orders, then Garrosh was guilty of ordering the attack; if they weren't following orders, then they were guilty of murder.) It was also to reflect on what had happened, so that everyone, instead of just one person like Thrall, could get a sense of closure and justice from Garrosh.

The REEEEE WHY DONT WE PUT LICH KING YOGG SARON RAID BOSS ON TRIAL REEEE bullshit is easily answered: the Lich King and Yogg Saron and mostly every other fucking raid boss ever were not political fucking figures in the societies of the Horde and Alliance. The Lich King is just a monster. Deathwing is just a monster. Garrosh was basically like the President of a country or the King of a nation. Further than that, he survived his encounter and was taken alive to answer for actual crimes he committed.

If you don't understand why Garrosh was put on trial, then you're almost helplessly clueless. It's not very hard to digest.

[Super Dickmann]

Not making sense is indeed a bronze dragon trademark. I still don't know why it was so necessary for us to allow Arthas to murderdeathkill everyone in Lordaeron and Quel'thalas and bring forth the Legion. Or why any Alliance character would be OK with helping Medivh open the Dark Portal.

As for Sylvanas, what makes me think she might bite is the that she's on the bad side of beings bigger than the factions. Bolvar is her enemy by default, and she's so far up Bwonsamdi (and probably his boss by extension)'s shit list that he's ready to give up his hold over Zandalar and its royal family -a once in a lifetime opportunity even for him!- in exchange for her head. Garrosh was wanted dead by the factions (and imprisoned by Mr. Zhu) and that was more or less it. By the time 8.2 settles I'd wager Nathanos and the diehard Forsaken are the only people on the entire planet that won't want to see her hang by her own entrails.

Maybe it's all just a big red herring. But even accounting for the customary Blizzard incompetence I don't think this piece of lore was put in for no reason.

I'm certain Sylvanas isn't due a Kerrigan/Illidan-style redemption. They've signalled as hard as they can that we should all be on the muh honor/Anduin train, and all the obfuscation is done solely because they didn't expect the response they got. From the knaifu to the guys gunning for her it's all set. And since we know Saurfang will be showing up in the next one this is when they have her accidentally trip an orphan or something and earn the rest of the Horde's ire.

That said I'm 90% sure that the Bwonsamdi thing is a red herring that the fanbase is playing on itself. He specifies 'the Warchief' rather than Sylvanas, the quest can function without her and despite Talanji refusing him, he still grants his blessing. My reading is that this is a secret test of character kind of thing. By refusing to betray those who helped her even if it meant getting rid of him, she's proven herself to Bwon, someone who really values deals and keeping your word, and earns his go ahead to become queen.

@Aucald

That's not Garrosh's reasoning, either for the orcs or for his dislike of the Alliance. We're treated to his motivation through his own internal narration. His dislike for the Alliance is caused by the state he sees the orcs in. He initially defends both them and Thrall from criticism and it's only once he realizes that they're living off handouts in a desert because of racial guilt that he changes his track. For this rather poor lot in life he blames the Alliance - the faction his dad was at war with, but also the group giving said handouts, who've put his people in camps for which they're still salty and who possess rich lands that border with the Horde's. Also, lacking Thrall's soft spot for the other Kalimdor races and being treated with nothing but unhelpful whining by them at every turn, he also reappraises how much the orcs have really gotten out of carrying the Darkspear.

Garrosh is inspired by what he sees and he's influenced by those he's around, but it's not a one-way street where it's him looking for validation on beliefs he already holds. Rather, he shapes his belief very accurately to the needs of the orcs during that specific time period and his disillusionment with Thrall stems from the same thing. Same with his attitude to the other Horde races, which is produced by what he sees from them in terms of either incompatibility with the orcish way of life (blood elves), treachery (the Forsaken) or being useless (trolls).

[Aucald]

That's not Garrosh's reasoning, either for the orcs or for his dislike of the Alliance. We're treated to his motivation through his own internal narration. His dislike for the Alliance is caused by the state he sees the orcs in. He initially defends both them and Thrall from criticism and it's only once he realizes that they're living off handouts in a desert because of racial guilt that he changes his track. For this rather poor lot in life he blames the Alliance - the faction his dad was at war with, but also the group giving said handouts, who've put his people in camps for which they're still salty and who possess rich lands that border with the Horde's. Also, lacking Thrall's soft spot for the other Kalimdor races and being treated with nothing but unhelpful whining by them at every turn, he also reappraises how much the orcs have really gotten out of carrying the Darkspear.

"Heart of War" informs Garrosh's character a great deal, and in a number of positive ways, but it doesn't let him off the hook - Garrosh was posturing and blustering about taking the fight to the Alliance all the way back to the start of WotLK, when Saurfang has to hold the pup in check before he enacts a unilateral attack on Valiance Keep in the Borean Tundra. It's that selfsame charge as well since Saurfang sees the rashness of Grom in Garrosh and upbraids him for it. Not to mention one fact about Thrall's characterization in "Heart of War" is that it is primarily the product of Krenna, who would go on to become conqueror Krenna, so corrupt and bloodthirsty that she'd be deposed by her own sister. To my knowledge we get very little from Thrall in regards as to why he made this choice, but the people or Orgrimmar seem to agree with it. Krenna is not the most reliable source for perspective on Thrall - both given her obvious bias in "Heart of War" and the knowledge of what her fate will be later on in the Grizzly Hills.

Garrosh is inspired by what he sees and he's influenced by those he's around, but it's not a one-way street where it's him looking for validation on beliefs he already holds. Rather, he shapes his belief very accurately to the needs of the orcs during that specific time period and his disillusionment with Thrall stems from the same thing. Same with his attitude to the other Horde races, which is produced by what he sees from them in terms of either incompatibility with the orcish way of life (blood elves), treachery (the Forsaken) or being useless (trolls).

The Garrosh you described would not be the kind of leader who was deposed in short order by his own people in a bloody revolution. This is perhaps how Garrosh began in his earliest days, but "Heart of War" also quite clearly demonstrates his thinking and how he permits short-term goals to override what is best for the Horde in the long-term. Garrosh doesn't fundamentally realize what Thrall's Horde actually is, thinking only in terms of his Orcish heritage and history - discounting their allies, minimizing their contributions to the Horde, or just displaying outright xenophobia.

[Super Dickmann]

"Heart of War" informs Garrosh's character a great deal, and in a number of positive ways, but it doesn't let him off the hook - Garrosh was posturing and blustering about taking the fight to the Alliance all the way back to the start of WotLK, when Saurfang has to hold the pup in check before he enacts a unilateral attack on Valiance Keep in the Borean Tundra. It's that selfsame charge as well since Saurfang sees the rashness of Grom in Garrosh and upbraids him for it. Not to mention one fact about Thrall's characterization in "Heart of War" is that it is primarily the product of Krenna, who would go on to become conqueror Krenna, so corrupt and bloodthirsty that she'd be deposed by her own sister. To my knowledge we get very little from Thrall in regards as to why he made this choice, but the people or Orgrimmar seem to agree with it. Krenna is not the most reliable source for perspective on Thrall - both given her obvious bias in "Heart of War" and the knowledge of what her fate will be later on in the Grizzly Hills.

You're misplacing the timing of Heart of War. It's placed in early to mid TBC, right after Thrall tells Garrosh his view of Grom and invites him to see Azeroth. The deprivation and an existence dependent on said handouts were the status quo prior to Wrath. While Krenna is obviously a very aggressive example, it's important to note that she isn't actually who convinces Garrosh. Garrosh rebuffs her because of his high opinion of Thrall. It's only in the lead up to Wrath as he sees more and more of the orcs' condition that he comes around to her side of things. Similarly, the later examples we see from Garrosh's view are presented as fact and backed up in Shattering where Thrall himself attests that his motive was racial guilt. Across both Wrath and Shattering we're shown that the Horde who went to Northrend and the orcs especially were more aligned with Garrosh's view than Thrall's, which is why Thrall decided to abdicate and put him in charge over Garrosh's own and his advisors objections.

The Garrosh you described would not be the kind of leader who was deposed in short order by his own people in a bloody revolution. This is perhaps how Garrosh began in his earliest days, but "Heart of War" also quite clearly demonstrates his thinking and how he permits short-term goals to override what is best for the Horde in the long-term. Garrosh doesn't fundamentally realize what Thrall's Horde actually is, thinking only in terms of his Orcish heritage and history - discounting their allies, minimizing their contributions to the Horde, or just displaying outright xenophobia.

This kind of puts the cart before the horse. Garrosh does not come into Azeroth with any of the views he'd later be known for, nor are they induced by any of his later court like Malkorok. He comes out fully convinced in what Thrall has told him. It's what he sees in Orgrimmar, Durotar and later Northrend that colours his views of those races, especially the Forsaken and the trolls. He goes from framing his views based on what Thrall tells him to adopting more of the mindset of what the orcs think, which we're shown in things like Glory, Northrend and the Shattering. What he inherits from his idealized view of his dad is his approach and bluster, but not the ideology.

As for being overthrown in short order, the only Warchief with a longer reign than him thus far is Thrall. It took a while to get him there and one could make a decent case that it's ultimately his racial politics and the course of the war effort that turned the orcs against Garrosh, given what we see of their behaviour after, not his earlier motives and goals. That he wanted to run all other races like the orcs is a given, because his views were that they were essentially a bunch of freeloaders, with the exception of the tauren. I can't really say he was wrong as regards the Darkspear and his mistrust of the Forsaken was widely shared by all the Horde at that point.