Favorite loot systems?

[Rogalicus]

It's not a deflect, most trinkets are either a straight up stat stick or "procs X for Y seconds" which are nothing more then ignorable stat increases, even on use trinkets boil down to "press x for y stats on a z cooldown which means you really just end up with this amount of stats over the fight anyway because we know you're just macroing it".

I guess damage cooldowns are just boring "press x for y stats on a z cooldown" too with no interactions to your class toolkit too, right? Burst windows don't exist, right? Haste proc doesn't change how fast your rotation flows or your DoTs proc, crit doesn't increase your "on crit" procs. This is just disingenuous.

I'd take good class design and complete classes over silly trinkets and crap, if the class design is good you don't need gimmicky gear.

I'd take more gameplay variety over "here's your rotation set in stone, have fun repeating it for over 9000 times in absolutely the same way".

[Onikaroshi]

I guess damage cooldowns are just boring "press x for y stats on a z cooldown" too with no interactions to your class toolkit too, right? Burst windows don't exist, right? Haste proc doesn't change how fast your rotation flows or your DoTs proc, crit doesn't increase your "on crit" procs. This is just disingenuous.

Over the course of a fight none of that matters anymore. There's not dot snapshotting, dots just scale with haste, etc. Everything is just burn at the start and use on cooldown for the most part. It's not disingenuous, it's the honest truth.

And you act like all you do is stand still and do a rotation in these other games, there's a lot more to it.

In wow its stand still and hit 2-3 buttons with an extra 1-2 every X seconds.

[Rogalicus]

Over the course of a fight none of that matters anymore. There's not dot snapshotting, dots just scale with haste, etc. Everything is just burn at the start and use on cooldown for the most part. It's not disingenuous, it's the honest truth.

And you act like all you do is stand still and do a rotation in these other games, there's a lot more to it.

In wow its stand still and hit 2-3 buttons with an extra 1-2 every X seconds.

It seems that you started this fight on wrong notion, I haven't played WoW in 1.5 years (half an hour or so during one of the free weekends in BfA doesn't count) and I said in the beginning that big part of complexity was removed. What I dislike is your oversimplification of combat, especially when topic was about loot, not how everything is "just damage increase". I can easily say that 90% of your class toolkit in FFXIV is either direct damage or damage increase, 10% is crowd control or some other dead utilities. It completely ignores how classes play individually, but whatever.

[Onikaroshi]

It seems that you started this fight on wrong notion, I haven't played WoW in 1.5 years (half an hour or so during one of the free weekends in BfA doesn't count) and I said in the beginning that big part of complexity was removed. What I dislike is your oversimplification of combat, especially when topic was about loot, not how everything is "just damage increase". I can easily say that 90% of your class toolkit in FFXIV is either direct damage or damage increase, 10% is crowd control or some other dead utilities. It completely ignores how classes play individually, but whatever.

Eh, I'm just going to leave it there as it's just differing opinions on what we prefer, and seeing as it's been so long since you played I can see where you're coming from on more interesting mechanics. I don't really agree with your observation of FFXIV classes, but that's always personal taste.

[Coldkil]

Static/crafting. If that guy has a sword, you get that sword. Period. Maybe you won't get it if you somehow break it during the encounter, but that would be the next level of depth. You kill a large monster? Unless it has a weapon stuck in it's arse or has eaten a knight wholesome before it will drop only materials. Even better, you have to harvest the materials yourself from the corpse/enviroment.

I hate RNG loot-pinatas.

Yeah, i agree with this. Talking straight into game mechanics:
- some loot is obtainable by farming specific locations/bosses. The point is not to have it all in one place but scattered in different dungeons so players will have everything to experience.
- other part of the loot is crafted by farming materials/tokens/currency whatever. I like more materials in a MH way, where you crafts stuff that you see comes from very specific monster parts (though in the world of xmog it makes much less sense).

The goal is to have you hunt for specific stuff and in the meanwhile you can still get out something of your faming sessions even if you don't drop the item you want. It makes for clear objectives and one can plan what to do in anticipation, without feeling he's doing something useless.

Also works good with a M+like system, where you can drop/craft more powerful stuff the higher level you do the content.

[CritFromAfar]

Yeah, i agree with this. Talking straight into game mechanics:
- some loot is obtainable by farming specific locations/bosses. The point is not to have it all in one place but scattered in different dungeons so players will have everything to experience.
- other part of the loot is crafted by farming materials/tokens/currency whatever. I like more materials in a MH way, where you crafts stuff that you see comes from very specific monster parts (though in the world of xmog it makes much less sense).

The goal is to have you hunt for specific stuff and in the meanwhile you can still get out something of your faming sessions even if you don't drop the item you want. It makes for clear objectives and one can plan what to do in anticipation, without feeling he's doing something useless.

Also works good with a M+like system, where you can drop/craft more powerful stuff the higher level you do the content.

That actually sounds like a pretty interesting idea. Imagine if WoW brought professions back by adding mats to M+? Similiar to how you said, it could be like where you have to farm 1000 little pieces, say in this case from random mob drops, and then you could use those drops to craft armor that you might not be able to get from raids or RNG drops in M+. They could make it so that you can only get certain pieces this way (trinkets?) so that it doesn't become obsolete compared to spamming M+ or just doing weekly raids, and it could give people a real reason to do professions again.

They could also potentially put it in a rep vendor so people don't feel as bad about grinding rep, and add scaling versions of it that you have to meet a requirement connected to the trinket to unlock the next upgrade. Certain ilvl, perhaps? Or a certain level of rep with the faction that sells it? To prevent people from just buying the best one over the lesser versions.

[Coldkil]

That actually sounds like a pretty interesting idea. Imagine if WoW brought professions back by adding mats to M+? Similiar to how you said, it could be like where you have to farm 1000 little pieces, say in this case from random mob drops, and then you could use those drops to craft armor that you might not be able to get from raids or RNG drops in M+. They could make it so that you can only get certain pieces this way (trinkets?) so that it doesn't become obsolete compared to spamming M+ or just doing weekly raids, and it could give people a real reason to do professions again.

They could also potentially put it in a rep vendor so people don't feel as bad about grinding rep, and add scaling versions of it that you have to meet a requirement connected to the trinket to unlock the next upgrade. Certain ilvl, perhaps? Or a certain level of rep with the faction that sells it? To prevent people from just buying the best one over the lesser versions.

The main point however is that you cannot tackle this kind of system on an already established game like WoW. Honestly, i think M+ is killing WoW as we knew simply because you get better loot faster and with many less hassles instead of managing a group for Mythic raiding (nothing against the M+ system itself, i just think they are destroying raids, which happens to have been the only reason i liked WoW for).

In a new game? I would be totally down with it. I REALLY welcome your idea of putting professions/reps in the mix - you as a blacksmith can create awesome weapons by farming stuff, just to trade with other people. Maybe the BiS weapon drops from a dungeon boss, but you can sell an higher level weapon that actually does more damage (while the same level BiS is still better).

You can have "rep vendors" that sell you pieces for tokens of a specific dungeon (or dungeon levels) for additional chances as loot.

We can build a lot on this. The focal point is that players won't be hindered in any way since they're going to hunt for the epic loot from the dungeon boss, but in the meanwhile they can farm trash on an higher level version of the same dungeon to get mats, or buy a piece of gear from another player.

All while dungeon bosses still drop the best loot. It's very important - we don't want to end with a D3 situation where AH was just better than playing the game.

[CritFromAfar]

The main point however is that you cannot tackle this kind of system on an already established game like WoW. Honestly, i think M+ is killing WoW as we knew simply because you get better loot faster and with many less hassles instead of managing a group for Mythic raiding (nothing against the M+ system itself, i just think they are destroying raids, which happens to have been the only reason i liked WoW for).

In a new game? I would be totally down with it. I REALLY welcome your idea of putting professions/reps in the mix - you as a blacksmith can create awesome weapons by farming stuff, just to trade with other people. Maybe the BiS weapon drops from a dungeon boss, but you can sell an higher level weapon that actually does more damage (while the same level BiS is still better).

You can have "rep vendors" that sell you pieces for tokens of a specific dungeon (or dungeon levels) for additional chances as loot.

We can build a lot on this. The focal point is that players won't be hindered in any way since they're going to hunt for the epic loot from the dungeon boss, but in the meanwhile they can farm trash on an higher level version of the same dungeon to get mats, or buy a piece of gear from another player.

All while dungeon bosses still drop the best loot. It's very important - we don't want to end with a D3 situation where AH was just better than playing the game.

I was going to respond seriously until I realized that you're basically repeating aspects of WoW that were already in the game, so now I'm not sure if you're being genuine or mocking me.

[Coldkil]

I was going to respond seriously until I realized that you're basically repeating aspects of WoW that were already in the game, so now I'm not sure if you're being genuine or mocking me.

No, i'm not mocking you - completely serious. Maybe just bad wording on my side.

EDIT: care to explain where i' "doing it worng"? Maybe i can go in detail or explain better to avoid misunderstanding.

[Poppincaps]

Old School Runescape has an underrated crafting system. Shit was really rewarding. I remember getting my Black Iron set or whatever it was called and I felt like a badass.

Monster Hunter has a great loot system, especially since in MH:W they added golden tickets you could trade in to get a rare material, which took some of the grind out of trying to get gems/plates.

I like Diablo 3's loot system FOR Diablo. They tried to adapt it to WoW and I don't think it works at all.

[CritFromAfar]

No, i'm not mocking you - completely serious. Maybe just bad wording on my side.

EDIT: care to explain where i' "doing it worng"? Maybe i can go in detail or explain better to avoid misunderstanding.

Oh, okay.

Doing what wrong? I'm a firm believer that Blizz removed certain aspects that were enjoyable, and they should add them back. So even though I'm fairly certain Blizz has done something similiar to what I said before, it wasn't on a wide-scale and it could be a decent solution to some of peoples' complaints about M+ and professions. They've done it before, just not exactly like this and to this extent, so I figure that it would be a good solution and actually easily applied, too.

Considering they work in patches it could be applied since they have done it before. You listed out a bunch of features that they have previously used, which are similiar to what I just suggested, so I wasn't sure if you were mocking me or not. I do miss those features, though, but I'm pretty sure I've said that in another thread.

I guess if you're not mocking me than I must seem pretty goofy.

[Coldkil]

Oh, okay.

Doing what wrong? I'm a firm believer that Blizz removed certain aspects that were enjoyable, and they should add them back. So even though I'm fairly certain Blizz has done something similiar to what I said before, it wasn't on a wide-scale and it could be a decent solution to some of peoples' complaints about M+ and professions. They've done it before, just not exactly like this and to this extent, so I figure that it would be a good solution and actually easily applied, too.

Considering they work in patches it could be applied since they have done it before. You listed out a bunch of features that they have previously used, which are similiar to what I just suggested, so I wasn't sure if you were mocking me or not. I do miss those features, though, but I'm pretty sure I've said that in another thread.

I guess if you're not mocking me than I must seem pretty goofy.

Ah don't worry Anyway i agree. There are some things done by Blizz right now that i feel are just counterintuitive and are just part of the bloated "systems over systems" structure they are giving the game.

And they're not alone. I think a lot went down the shitter when the focus moved from product quality to "how can i manage to keep people logged into my client so maybe i can get them to buy some microtx".

I'm not against microtx - there are examples of things done good like PoE or even Anthem despite of much crap of a game it is; most games however have systems tackled on it just to make people spend money that are killing actual gameplay or even worse gameplay is tailored specifically towards making people buy stuff.

[sirethas]

I think MoP (don't really remember how it was in WoD) had the best loot system in WoW. You had that lucky change of Thunderforging/Warforging on item, which gave if I remember +5ilvl (could be +10 can't remember), and it didn't go beyond that, and you had upgrade system of those items through currencies gained from PvE. This was really neat and gave more incentive to raid and do content to upgrade the items you already have, rather than bash your head against the wall untill you get 20+ ilvl Titanforging and running raid multiple times might give you nothing at all.

I really don't understand why they moved from this system...

[Coldkil]

I really don't understand why they moved from this system...

Because it was way too clear and didn't keep people playing enough time. And i mean, people could easily play only the raiding nights and have meaningful progression - now the focus is to keep people online as much as possible, so convoluted/rng-based systems are favored.

[Aeula]

Fable 2. ‘Armor’ was purely cosmetic (And affected your social standing) and there were unique and powerful weapons scattered around the world for us to find.

Any loot system with the latter is good in my books. Morrowind is another good example. Though it wouldn’t work for an MMO.

[sirethas]

Because it was way too clear and didn't keep people playing enough time. And i mean, people could easily play only the raiding nights and have meaningful progression - now the focus is to keep people online as much as possible, so convoluted/rng-based systems are favored.

While I understand the desire of making people play as much as possible, in long run this system burns out players to the extent they don't want to come back. Well, it's sad to see this turn and hopefully blizzard will change their philosophy towards loot system.

[Coldkil]

While I understand the desire of making people play as much as possible, in long run this system burns out players to the extent they don't want to come back. Well, it's sad to see this turn and hopefully blizzard will change their philosophy towards loot system.

Yes, but i think it's also something they actually want.

WoW presented a very big problem: if you make a really good product that lasts a very long time, you're killing the market. Everyone played WoW and that was it, it monopolized the genre.

They want people to get burned out - so they can sell "new" games over and over; there's a lot of people that value "relevance" a lot more than the game itself, and will play the newest thing just because is newer and everyone is jumping into that. Only few players stick to a single game for a long time nowadays, and they are being milked. All the others jump ship as soon something shinier appears.

So, focus on keeeping people online, burn them as fast as possible so when the new product comes they are going to buy it to "get their fix". It sucks, but it's what's actually happening.

[sirethas]

Yes, but i think it's also something they actually want.

WoW presented a very big problem: if you make a really good product that lasts a very long time, you're killing the market. Everyone played WoW and that was it, it monopolized the genre.

They want people to get burned out - so they can sell "new" games over and over; there's a lot of people that value "relevance" a lot more than the game itself, and will play the newest thing just because is newer and everyone is jumping into that. Only few players stick to a single game for a long time nowadays, and they are being milked. All the others jump ship as soon something shinier appears.

So, focus on keeeping people online, burn them as fast as possible so when the new product comes they are going to buy it to "get their fix". It sucks, but it's what's actually happening.

Damn that's some illuminaty level but it's possible and quite possibly true, can't really counter-argument that.

[Coldkil]

Damn that's some illuminaty level but it's possible and quite possibly true, can't really counter-argument that.

Hahahaha. Well, yes, there's some tinfoil hattery involved but if i look at how the game market/industry was/is/is becoming i think some of the links aren't really far from the truth. But i'm no one with no official sources so that's it.

I just see a parallel with the "planned obsolescense" scheme we see in multiple other industries - i don't see how it can't apply for videogames or even easier since you're paying for non-material goods.