If the rumours are true - what do you think of the last Warbringer - Azshara now?

[Flurryfang]

The rumours were silly in the first place and can be more accurately labeled as speculation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7k_PjunmaAE

This video confirms it was never true and just more people seeking attention.

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She is literally the last boss of 8.2 there is no arguing that...

Yeah, kinda overtook it a bit. I am more saying, that we might not get to kick her corpse, which would be sad.

[Whitedragon]

That's debatable, since "power levels" are constantly argued about on this very forum when it comes to WoW. The only statement we have is in the book The Sundering, on page 310, where Mannoroth tries to squish Azshara (when she was a Night Elf), she simply blocks the attack with a magical barrier, and he thinks to himself that her power is comparable to Archimonde or Kil'jaeden. Granted, that's one character's internal monologue, but it would stand to reason that she would be even more powerful now being empowered by an Old God.

She gained an old gods blessing, but lost the most powerful font of magic that has ever existed in lore. Honestly this is why I never really gave her much credit as all powerful, yes she made one pit lord ponder on her ability (with just one show of magic power, under no strain, well rested...), but at the time she is living within walking distance of basically infinite power, to anyone trying to fight that power any mage would appear much grater then what they truly where.

[seleri]

I'm hoping she's trying to drain N'zoth (or just keeping him imprisoned so she doesn't have to listen to him), we start to win, then in the last phase she gets desperate which is why she tries to release him, and she flees while we deal with the aftermath of N'zoth being freed.

After all, someone's gotta lead the naga when they become playable and if it's between her, Nar'jira, and S'theno, I'll take Azshara any day.

[NightHaawk]

I'm hoping she's trying to drain N'zoth (or just keeping him imprisoned so she doesn't have to listen to him), we start to win, then in the last phase she gets desperate which is why she tries to release him, and she flees while we deal with the aftermath of N'zoth being freed.

After all, someone's gotta lead the naga when they become playable and if it's between her, Nar'jira, and S'theno, I'll take Azshara any day.

PTR confirms she is working for N’Zoth as we always knew. Anyone thinking she would turn against the most powerful being on Azeroth is foolish.

Also Naga will never be playable for obvious reasons.

[Destinas]

She gained an old gods blessing, but lost the most powerful font of magic that has ever existed in lore. Honestly this is why I never really gave her much credit as all powerful, yes she made one pit lord ponder on her ability (with just one show of magic power, under no strain, well rested...), but at the time she is living within walking distance of basically infinite power, to anyone trying to fight that power any mage would appear much grater then what they truly where.

While true, we don't know much about the rift that the Maelstrom left behind. While we don't currently know where Nazjatar will be located in WoW, it was always stated previously that it was on the edges of the former Well. It's entirely possible that the ocean floor under the Maelstrom is soaked with mana, similar to outside Jandvik.

And while she may not be all-powerful (after all, we'll fight her and do damage to her, unlike in the CoT dungeon), she's still certainly insanely powerful now. Farondis wasn't even able to damage her in Azsuna, while most of his abilities one-shot all the other Naga he fights - he even damages Athissa to the point that she retreats. Azshara as well also repaired the Tidestone, a Titan relic. They clearly wanted to depict that Azshara has immense power in recent history.

Also, let's not forget that Azeroth is bleeding the very same power now that she did in order for the Well to exist in the first place.

[Varodoc]

she simply blocks the attack with a magical barrier, and he thinks to himself that her power is comparable to Archimonde or Kil'jaeden.

He didn't say that her power rivaled Archimonde's, he said that only Archimonde would prove superior to her.

As far as importance, she's had her hand in pretty much every expansion in some form or capacity.

The Burning Crusade? Wrath of the Lich King? Mists of Pandaria? Warlords of Draenor?

Thus, any development of Azshara's faithful Naga is directly linked to her as well. Similar to how development of Man'ari Eredar (among other demons) directly links to the accomplishments of both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden.

What Azshara has done either by herself or through her minions pales in comparison to the singular feats of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. What would Archimonde, Defiler of entire worlds and commander of the forces of the most powerful army in the universe, say if he saw Azshara's doing in Azsuna? "Cute."

[Destinas]

He didn't say that her power rivaled Archimonde's, he said that only Archimonde would prove superior to her.

Oh well, I remembered that wrong.

The Burning Crusade?

Remember Coilfang Resevoir, where the Old Gods sent the Naga to help Illidan in the first place? Vashj was the most faithful to Azshara for 10,000 years. Obviously Azshara would be interested in whatever Vashj was doing there - whether it was enslaving the native races, collecting magical artifacts, or even fighting the Burning Legion by that time. She wouldn't have allowed her favorite handmaiden to go in the first place if that wasn't the case.

Wrath of the Lich King?

You do know that the Riplash Strand questline has to do with the Naga presence in Northrend, right? The story there spans 500 years, up until right before we get there. We meet a Naga there that states what they were planning to do until the Kvaldir came by and killed all the Naga (except the one). They were planning to flood the area, like they like to do.

Mists of Pandaria?

While they didn't appear on the continent, the Pearl of Pandaria (and related story) is heavily involved in a powerful Naga trying to get that artifact. This is one of the ones, however, that I meant when I said "pretty much every expansion." Note I didn't say "every expansion" in the previous post.

Warlords of Draenor?

Same as above - however Blackfathom Deeps was updated to expand upon the previous Naga lore.

What Azshara has done either by herself or through her minions pales in comparison to the singular feats of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. What would Archimonde, Defiler of entire worlds and commander of the forces of the most powerful army in the universe, say if he saw Azshara's doing in Azsuna? "Cute."

No one's saying that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden aren't powerful. But, both of those characters have something in common with Azshara - they are credited for many (but not all) of the accomplishments of their subordinates.

On paper, Archimonde has done much the same things that Azshara has done. He destroyed Dalaran himself (except, somehow, the fountain) similar to how Azshara sundered Azsuna herself. He also killed Malorne himself, but we have killed Wild Gods in quests and instances as well. Most of what Archimonde has done is summon infernals and other demons to destroy everything around him - it's the first thing he did during the Third War when he was summoned into Azeroth. Even in WoD, Archimonde didn't really get to do anything when he was summoned into the world - we beat him up immediately. Kil'jaeden is credited with destroying many worlds in the path between him and the Draenei - except Talgath was the one chasing the Draenei (under KJ's command) until they were discovered on Draenor. Kil'jaeden took command from then on, contacting orcs and such.

No one's arguing that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden aren't some of the most powerful former-mortals in WoW's lore. However, they didn't do many things all by themselves. They had Legion technology (ships, teleporters, cannons, etc), hordes of demons, undead (created originally for them by Dreadlords), enslaved races, and Sargeras' extended powers to begin with. That's the exact same as Azshara, doing most of her work through the Naga and enslaved races, with the addition of the Old Gods and their followers (Twilight's Hammer, Merciless Ones, Faceless, C'thraxxi, K'thir, etc) - not to mention all the mana and artifacts they've been trying to get since at least the start of WoW. I'm sure if the Old Gods had ships as well, we would have seen the Naga's presence on more planets. Not to mention that the Eredar had a 15,000 year lead on Azshara.

Fact is, we don't know exactly how powerful Azshara is right now. We don't know what she has been doing herself for 10,000 years. She could be building up power from the rift of the Maelstrom - for all we know, she could be incredibly empowered by Azerite in BfA (considering it's the same power as the Well of Eternity she loved so much). I do think she could have been built up more throughout WoW's history, showing up in more places to show the potential she's said to have. Archimonde and KJ have had far more development in that regard.

[MikeBogina]

Remember Coilfang Resevoir, where the Old Gods sent the Naga to help Illidan in the first place? Vashj was the most faithful to Azshara for 10,000 years. Obviously Azshara would be interested in whatever Vashj was doing there - whether it was enslaving the native races, collecting magical artifacts, or even fighting the Burning Legion by that time. She wouldn't have allowed her favorite handmaiden to go in the first place if that wasn't the case.

I remember there being a Naga who called them like traitors or something, because they abandoned Neptulon, i think the guy we did some quests for in a dungeon. For a while I wondered who their true loyalty was, but that made me think they did break from the rest of the Naga and are loyal to Illidan(why'd they bring this guy along?) but then Cata comes and we see that all of the Naga are against Neptulon, which then brought Vashj's naga's loyalty back into question. Then we learn that Azshara did send Vashj and those Naga to aid Illidan, and now as a I play on my Demon Hunter, I'm wondering if S'theno is gonna stab me in the back

[Destinas]

I remember there being a Naga who called them like traitors or something, because they abandoned Neptulon, i think the guy we did some quests for in a dungeon. For a while I wondered who their true loyalty was, but that made me think they did break from the rest of the Naga and are loyal to Illidan(why'd they bring this guy along?) but then Cata comes and we see that all of the Naga are against Neptulon, which then brought Vashj's naga's loyalty back into question. Then we learn that Azshara did send Vashj and those Naga to aid Illidan, and now as a I play on my Demon Hunter, I'm wondering if S'theno is gonna stab me in the back

At one point different tribes of Naga revered Neptulon. The Murloc Neptool in Blasted Lands mentions that the Bloodwash Naga revered Neptulon at one point, but now they only revere and worship Azshara.

I do believe you're referring to Skar'this ("the Heretic" or "the Summoner" depending on where you see him). He's the only Naga shown in-game that still reveres Neptulon, as opposed to only Azshara. We work with him to open Serpentshrine because he thinks we also do Neptulon's work. He summons Ahune during the Midsummer event, as well, where we kill him.

As far as the Coilskar Naga, it's entirely possible that S'theno could betray us in the future. She could have also had a change of heart, as a writer mentioned that Vashj may have. However, I'm doubting that from two of S'theno's quotes:

I wouldn't call what I do 'serving' the Illidari. It's more like... cooperation.

Zin-Azshari, adore.

It should be noted that she's not the only one with those quotes - all the Coilskar in Mardum say that when clicked on (as far as I can remember). This, to me, means that the Coilskar have some reservations if they are not 100% part of the Illidari, and are instead simply allying themselves with them for the time being.

Though it may not be 100% canon, it's also interesting to note that we can send S'theno and other Coilskar Naga units to kill Naga at the mission table as well, like any other unit/follower. They had every opportunity to write in any sort of line/quest that S'theno and/or the Coilskar Naga would be opposed to fighting against the Naga in Azsuna, but they never did. All of the quests S'theno is involved in revolve around beating up demons and defending the Illidari. That doesn't mean she can't betray us in the future - in all honesty she'll probably be forgotten about. But since it's up in the air, she could also completely be on our side instead.

[ravenmoon]

Exactly what I was getting at. Each of those could and should have been an entire expansion on its own. "People would get tired of spiders and caves/green stuff/fel green stuff" is a piss poor reword of "We don't want to put the effort into being creative." Instead, they throw entire settings away, then wonder why they're scraping the bottom of the barrel for villains/settings/ideas/friggin clues.

If they could make an entire expansion out of Northrend which until Wrath was thought to be all ice, they could have made one out of Argus and the Emerald dream.

Azshara expansion could have raised a new conti ent to the surface in an epic storyline that could have seen some naga gain an elven form they could shapeshift in and out of and become playable as well as a host of interesting new things.

I know they could still do the last bit, but hoping for blizzard to go grand on an expansion is dying fast - legion rekindled some hope, but Argus coming as patch while great for a patch was disappointing for not doing an expansion

[Varodoc]

Oh well, I remembered that wrong.


Remember Coilfang Resevoir, where the Old Gods sent the Naga to help Illidan in the first place? Vashj was the most faithful to Azshara for 10,000 years. Obviously Azshara would be interested in whatever Vashj was doing there - whether it was enslaving the native races, collecting magical artifacts, or even fighting the Burning Legion by that time. She wouldn't have allowed her favorite handmaiden to go in the first place if that wasn't the case.


You do know that the Riplash Strand questline has to do with the Naga presence in Northrend, right? The story there spans 500 years, up until right before we get there. We meet a Naga there that states what they were planning to do until the Kvaldir came by and killed all the Naga (except the one). They were planning to flood the area, like they like to do.


While they didn't appear on the continent, the Pearl of Pandaria (and related story) is heavily involved in a powerful Naga trying to get that artifact. This is one of the ones, however, that I meant when I said "pretty much every expansion." Note I didn't say "every expansion" in the previous post.


Same as above - however Blackfathom Deeps was updated to expand upon the previous Naga lore.


No one's saying that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden aren't powerful. But, both of those characters have something in common with Azshara - they are credited for many (but not all) of the accomplishments of their subordinates.

On paper, Archimonde has done much the same things that Azshara has done. He destroyed Dalaran himself (except, somehow, the fountain) similar to how Azshara sundered Azsuna herself. He also killed Malorne himself, but we have killed Wild Gods in quests and instances as well. Most of what Archimonde has done is summon infernals and other demons to destroy everything around him - it's the first thing he did during the Third War when he was summoned into Azeroth. Even in WoD, Archimonde didn't really get to do anything when he was summoned into the world - we beat him up immediately. Kil'jaeden is credited with destroying many worlds in the path between him and the Draenei - except Talgath was the one chasing the Draenei (under KJ's command) until they were discovered on Draenor. Kil'jaeden took command from then on, contacting orcs and such.

No one's arguing that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden aren't some of the most powerful former-mortals in WoW's lore. However, they didn't do many things all by themselves. They had Legion technology (ships, teleporters, cannons, etc), hordes of demons, undead (created originally for them by Dreadlords), enslaved races, and Sargeras' extended powers to begin with. That's the exact same as Azshara, doing most of her work through the Naga and enslaved races, with the addition of the Old Gods and their followers (Twilight's Hammer, Merciless Ones, Faceless, C'thraxxi, K'thir, etc) - not to mention all the mana and artifacts they've been trying to get since at least the start of WoW. I'm sure if the Old Gods had ships as well, we would have seen the Naga's presence on more planets. Not to mention that the Eredar had a 15,000 year lead on Azshara.

Fact is, we don't know exactly how powerful Azshara is right now. We don't know what she has been doing herself for 10,000 years. She could be building up power from the rift of the Maelstrom - for all we know, she could be incredibly empowered by Azerite in BfA (considering it's the same power as the Well of Eternity she loved so much). I do think she could have been built up more throughout WoW's history, showing up in more places to show the potential she's said to have. Archimonde and KJ have had far more development in that regard.

Your logic is flawed. Just because there were a few nameless naga NPCs in random quest hubs doesn't mean that Azshara influenced most expansions of the game, since she wasn't influencing anything at all. In The Burning Crusade Vashj was taking orders from Illidan, and her actions were ordered by Illidan. She joined Illidan because Azshara commanded it back in Warcraft III, not in The Burning Crusade.

Your examples are poor. Going by your logic, the murloc are just as deadly as Azshara since they have "influenced" every single expansion, as every expansion has a murloc presence one way or another. I didn't forget that one outpost in Wrath, I didn't consider it as it literally had no weight on the storyline. You could remove that and nothing would change.

On paper, Archimonde has done much the same things that Azshara has done.

Azshara hasn't caused the destruction of countless worlds.

However, they didn't do many things all by themselves.

Prove it. Given how Archimonde is the most powerful demon in the universe except for Sargeras and the Dark Pantheon, and that he can literally oneshot entire cities without the need of fancy artifacts, he could have very well single-handedly destroyed entire worlds without requiring the aid of his army.

I'm sure if the Old Gods had ships as well, we would have seen the Naga's presence on more planets.

They couldn't even get through Fort Daelin or the eastern shores of Zuldazar, you expect them to spread their influence across the cosmos in any meaningful way?

I don't hate Azshara, and I respect her as a persistent opponent, but she never had the potential to be a cosmic conqueror like the two champions of Sargeras, who have destroyed countless worlds (either indirectly or not, it remains to be seen) for 25.000 years.

[Hellspawn]

I don't hate Azshara, and I respect her as a persistent opponent, but she never had the potential to be a cosmic conqueror like the two champions of Sargeras, who have destroyed countless worlds (either indirectly or not, it remains to be seen) for 25.000 years.

She simply does not care much about conquering, even when she was "just" the Queen of the night elf empire. She craves for power and worship.

[Destinas]

She simply does not care much about conquering, even when she was "just" the Queen of the night elf empire. She craves for power and worship.

I was about to say the same thing. Even 10,000 years ago, her plan wasn't to destroy Azeroth in the first place, but to gain more power from studying the Well, which the Burning Legion used to their advantage. Even when she was told that Azeroth would burn and "be remade for the master" she simply assumed Sargeras was doing it for her - she felt Sargeras (as a "god") would be the only one worthy of being her consort.

And also to add to what you were saying, she didn't even want to conquer the Zandalari or Mount Hyjal when she was in power, instead striking a bargain with the Trolls. Most of the Kaldorei Empire's expansion was before she came into power, as well.

[Lorde Snow]

You guys are overestimating azshara, no matter how powerful she is she's just a child before N'zoth, we're talking about the Old God who was behind the Cataclysm, infinite dragonflight, emerald nightmare, no matter the expansion there was always a minion or reference to N'zoth, he is practically the main antagonist of Warcraft, it is obvious that he is manipulating Azshara without her knowing

[shadowmatrix]

So she imprisoned someone who was already imprisoned, how does that work?

[Feanoro]

You guys are overestimating azshara, no matter how powerful she is she's just a child before N'zoth, we're talking about the Old God who was behind the Cataclysm, infinite dragonflight, emerald nightmare, no matter the expansion there was always a minion or reference to N'zoth, he is practically the main antagonist of Warcraft, it is obvious that he is manipulating Azshara without her knowing

Hmmm, I thought I recalled the Nightmare being Yogg's doing?

[Lorde Snow]

Hmmm, I thought I recalled the Nightmare being Yogg's doing?

The Nightmare Was Yogg Creation he opened the door for his brothers take over the Emerald Dream, but was N'zoth the main responsible for corruption of the dream, we see it in Stormrage book, Chronicles, and more Recently in Emeral Nightmare Raid.

[Zyky]

That the rumours that she has imprisoned an old god and using its power. -- isn't it the other way round usually? - old gods who nearly defeated the planet, corrupted the titan keepers, nearly one via creating the nightmare in the Emerald dream... and we thought she wasn't powerful or significant any more.

He was imprisoned prior to making contact with her. The entirety of the Warbringer once she's underwater is all in her head until her transformation, following that the manifestation behind her is also an illusion. The titans already imprisoned all of the old gods, so we know N'zoth wasn't free.

If it's true, that's a rather incredible feat, but then again, something you may have expected of the sort of person that led the Kaldorei's greatest age.

While powerful, shes' not powerful enough to shackle a being she has no knowledge of, someone with significantly more power than her, someone who literally saved her through a rapid mutation.

[Alanar]

It's pretty fitting with the Warbringer, to be honest.

N'zoth was shown to be a spineless idiot who gets manipulated by Azshara just saying "if you don't do what I want you'll stay imprisoned". When she decides she doesn't need his help anymore, she just stops promising freedom and lets him stay locked up.



Her appearing at all is anticlimactic, she's an extremely shallow character that gets overhyped because she's been around for a long time and said to be really powerful. We've seen much better and more interesting characters being mid-tier bosses or worse.

We havent seen her yeta so hard to say that. I dont think she is overhyped at all.. just wishfull thinking in hoping she isnt one of those old god minions and tbh she has great potential. I think she is interesting enough. Afther the warbringer( which I though was the better one of the three) I wanted to see more of her.

[ravenmoon]

He was imprisoned prior to making contact with her. The entirety of the Warbringer once she's underwater is all in her head until her transformation, following that the manifestation behind her is also an illusion. The titans already imprisoned all of the old gods, so we know N'zoth wasn't free.



While powerful, shes' not powerful enough to shackle a being she has no knowledge of, someone with significantly more power than her, someone who literally saved her through a rapid mutation.

She probably has more knowledge about the old gods than we do. She has had 10k years with them and they've bestowed her with their power before... I wouldnt say she has no knowledge of them