I hate Sylvanas, but I still want to stab Baine

[Super Dickmann]

The "Sovereign Imperative" issued for Alterac was likely a response from the initial attack against the dwarven explorers that came in peace to just look for relics.

The text isn't ambiguous here to allow for this kind of fanfiction:

The taking, culling, and turning of that land is a sovereign and territorial imperative to the kingdom of Ironforge.

They are not invading because they're sad that their explorers were killed. They are invading because they want to take this land and they want to take this land because it benefits them. It's a 'territorial' imperative, not the weakest self-defense claim known to man. They also say directly that the Frostwolves are to be exterminated and the land is to be culled.

So, you're saying, because he did some stuff in the past you don't like, we shouldn't help him and should let Azeroth die? Ok, good to know, thanks.

The discussion of whether Azeroth dying isn't actually a benefit overall up top aside, no, I'm saying that running errands for the dwarven king as Horde is pretty tiresome.

[Combatbutler]

Can you show me the evidence that they knew that in the first place?


To "invade" there must be knowledge that those lands belong to someone else AND there must be hostile intentions. So far, the first one is unconfirmed, and the second one is false.

- - - Updated - - -


The "Sovereign Imperative" issued for Alterac was likely a response from the initial attack against the dwarven explorers that came in peace to just look for relics.

How is it out of character for dwarves, a race that stole every piece of land they currently inhabit at one point in their past? What makes them special that they would never take lands just because they want them? The answer is they are a nation and as such behave as such dwarves will purge races from lands they want they have done so in the past and there is zero evidence pointing in the direction they wouldn't do so again, like literally every other race on the planet.

I really don't get people who try to put races on pedestal as some sort of pristine beacons of righteousness, news flash not a single race in the warcraft universe is pure and innocent, never were and never will be.

[Mehrunes]

I asked how they started "the previous faction war", and all you did was restate your claim without answering my question.

Yeah, no. You asked me to "show you the wars Alliance started". Here, so you don't accuse of me "straw-manning" you again (while you have no clue on what straw-man is):

Alright. I'll bite. Show me the wars the Alliance started.

The word "how" wasn't even present in that paragraph. You're making shit up about your own posts at this point. Not just any post of yours, your previous post. You know, the one that's quoted by me in the post you're replying to here, making it easy as hell for everyone to see how you're making shit up about your posts. So why even bother doing so?

So other than you changing your question after the fact and hoping it will stick (it did not), I most certainly did answer your question.

Thanks for showing me how the Horde started the conflict, there.
"You see, the Stormpike Expedition arrived as peaceful visitors to the area in search of ore and relics. The Frostwolves reacted with the most brutal and uncivilized act of aggression the Alliance has experienced."

You have to perform Olympics levels of mental gymnastics to twist the source in which Stormpikes themselves admitted to be trespassing on Frostwolf territory into a source of Horde starting the conflict. Newsflash that you apparently need: trespassing is in itself an act of aggression. Frostwolves had all the right in the world to defend their land from unwanted visitors.

Maybe the dwarves did not know it was Frostwolf territory when they arrived?

Maybe the quest says nothing of the sort, so you're reaching for something that doesn't even exist. Yet another non-argument on your part.

So... you show me a quest where the guy simply makes a wild guess as to Dalaran's intentions, and has no idea why they're doing it.

Except it's not a wild guess, it's a result of multiple previous quests of investigation. The guy was an ex-Kirin Tor Mage himself so he was knowledgeable about the arcane. And the last two quests confirmed his conclusion. The why of them doing it is irrelevant to the topic.

Also, from what the quests say, the town wasn't abandoned by the Gilneans, considering they mention the town is "receiving support" from Dalaran.

I have no idea which part of "Dalaran isn't Gilneas" you don't understand. Ambermill receiving support from Dalaran after some Kirin Tor Mages moved in there in no way shows that the town wasn't abandoned by Gilneas because THE KIRIN TOR AREN'T GILNEAS. That everything north of the Greymane Wall was abandoned by Gilneas comes from Alliance's goddamn quests. You don't even know the quests of the faction you're arguing in favor of. You. Have. Nothing.

I don't have the book, so I'll have to ask for a quote.

But Varian was not satisfied. Still seething with rage, he marched to the Undercity's throne room with blades drawn to confront Thrall. No matter who was truly responsible for the attack at the Wrath Gate, Varian Wrynn could not trust the Horde, and he believed the world would be a better place without it. He declared war upon Thrall and his people right then and there.

Chronicle v3, page 181.

Speaking of "fantasies", I never said that the Horde was "preparing for war on Silithus". I simply said it was part of their plan to start the war.

Then why can I quote you saying earlier in the thread that Alliance sent troops to Silithus only in response to Horde preparing for war and sending their own army to Silithus first? Here:

And I see you're going to complete ignore the fact that the only reason the Alliance mobilized that army toward Silithus is because the Horde was already preparing to war and fed the Alliance wrong information, right?

I'm not "handwaving" anything. I already said I know it happened. I'm also stating the fact that nothing came out of that event. Genn did not suffer even a single reprimand from it, not even a slap on the wrist. And I wanted something to happen out of it. At the very, very least Anduin being disappointed in Genn. But, again, nothing panned out.

I know you already said you know it happened. I already addressed it. And I already said you knowing it doesn't negate your handwave, it's the goddamn requirement. You're struggling with understanding what you're replying to every second paragraph in this exchange. Perhaps get some rest?

And your claim that Genn didn't suffer a single reprimand and a slap on the wrist is yet another blatant falsehood. Both him and Rogers got a stern talk from Anduin on their behavior. Which covers both the reprimand and the slap on the wrist.

And you're not handwaving anything? So do you admit that your narrative that Alliance is only ever on the defensive is a blatant falsehood?

Was that what really happened? I need quotes, please.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Class_Order

False. Proven wrong by your own link, no less.

Except my link outright proved me right, because it explicitly stated Stormpikes were intruding on Frostwolf land before Frostwolves attacked. And since trespassing on foreign territory is a hostile act, Stormpikes acted in a hostile manner first. Which they, once again, admitted.

And you trying to bend over backwards even to the point where you try to rob a sovereign entity like Frostwolves of their right to defend their territory from foreign intrusion in an effort to even have anything resembling an argument and overall deny reality itself isn't particularly effective.

Ahh.... right. It was because he was captured and enslaved for years by the Horde. I remember now.

Yes, people usually don't operate in a vacuum and tend to have reasons for things like declarations of war. That in no way changes the fact he's the one to declare it.

Ah, the narrative spin. Sure. The Dwarves entered Alterac, bringing in steam tanks and flying machines and gryphons with the intention of scouring the Frostwolves, but were driven back by wolf-riding axe wielders.

I'm not even sure what argument are you trying to make here. That the first expedition didn't bring tanks and they only came later? You do realize the Dwarves got into the Barrens for the exact same archaeological purpose as they did in Alterac Valley and still brought tanks with them there, right?

How is it out of character for dwarves, a race that stole every piece of land they currently inhabit at one point in their past? What makes them special that they would never take lands just because they want them? The answer is they are a nation and as such behave as such dwarves will purge races from lands they want they have done so in the past and there is zero evidence pointing in the direction they wouldn't do so again, like literally every other race on the planet.

I really don't get people who try to put races on pedestal as some sort of pristine beacons of righteousness, news flash not a single race in the warcraft universe is pure and innocent, never were and never will be.

I know, right? It's almost as if they did the exact same thing in two different Horde zones. But hey, if the thread lasts long enough we'll probably hear suchamazing revelations from @Ielenia like "The Dwarves didn't know there are Tauren in Mulgore" and "The Dwarves didn't know there's Horde in the Barrens either".

[Zandalariprelate]

The botani are natives, it's the things Aggramar introduced that prevented it from being consumed by the overabundance of spirit (by killing them). This was not contingent on having a world soul which caused other adverse side-effects like the whole overaggressive elements thing. It stands to reason we can off the giant trees that'll spawn once all the spirit Azeroth is hogging is freed.

No, he mentions he found very interesting a world without a titan soul has created intelligent life forms despite of his previous experiences in others barren worlds, also the book mention the old gods dies of starvation without a world soul to feed which only fuels the theory about magic being an important part of creating intelligent life forms or even keeping magical beings in that planet.

[Combatbutler]

No, he mentions he found very interesting a world without a titan soul has created intelligent life forms despite of his previous experiences in others barren worlds, also the book mention the old gods dies of starvation without a world soul to feed which only fuels the theory about magic being an important part of creating intelligent life forms or even keeping magical beings in that planet.

The actual quote

Aggramar lingered among the vast emptiness over Draenor, listening for the dreams of a world soul at its core. He heard none. And yet the world still intrigued him. He had never seen a place of such voracious plant life, a place of such of untamed savagery

.

It does not say anything about barren worlds, and it is nowhere mentioned that old gods starve without a titan soul to corrupt.

[Super Dickmann]

No, he mentions he found very interesting a world without a titan soul has created intelligent life forms despite of his previous experiences in others barren worlds, also the book mention the old gods dies of starvation without a world soul to feed which only fuels the theory about magic being an important part of creating intelligent life forms or even keeping magical beings in that planet.

I think you're misremembering things. I just checked Chronicle 2 and it's mentioned that nearly all worlds have elemental spirits on them and many have life (p. 12). It's not that what surprised Aggrammar but that Draenor had an exceptional amount of spirit and Chronicle 1 says that it's a lack of spirit that made the Azeroth elementals so mad. The spirit was missing because it was being used up by Azeroth. It's why I mentioned that in Warcraft, worlds and life aren't sustained by just the normal processes, but by magic and that all worlds have magic in them, the world soul is just a particular kind that's extremely rare.

As for the old gods, can you toss me the source on that? As I recall the Void Lords flung them at random and so by default they would usually land on worlds without world souls. If they starve it's because they're inherently parasitic.

[Zandalariprelate]

The actual quote

.

It does not say anything about barren worlds, and it is nowhere mentioned that old gods starve without a titan soul to corrupt.

Well his pantheon ordered worlds who probably were barrens or sterile, and still doesn't contradict the fact he was intrigued with the hive mind of the plant life forms over there. Also the old god of Draenor died ages ago and the ones from Azeroth only became big and powerful by consuming power of the world soul. They are a parasyte life form and without a host, the parasyte either goes to hibernation or dies.

However this could be an exception with the old gods if the corruoted planet we saw in the Aurgur fight is a corrupted planet without a world soul and serves only as a foothold

[Combatbutler]

Well his pantheon ordered worlds who probably were barrens or sterile, and still doesn't contradict the fact he was intrigued with the hive mind of the plant life forms over there. Also the old god of Draenor died ages ago and the ones from Azeroth only became big and powerful by consuming power of the world soul. They are a parasyte life form and without a host, the parasyte either goes to hibernation or dies.

The titans more or less enhanced worlds, but they usually aren't lifeless.

The old god on Draenor did not exist there to begin with, some Arrakkoa tried to summon him back in bc, prior to that old gods did not exist there and the only void shenanigans on the planet were introduced through the naaru.

However this could be an exception with the old gods if the corruoted planet we saw in the Aurgur fight is a corrupted planet without a world soul and serves only as a foothold

We don't know if the old gods cannot migrate in some form to another world afterwards, if the situation back in outland is any indication it might be possible for them to have their essence travel to another world once they are finished with a planet.

[Syegfryed]

Can you show me the evidence that they knew that in the first place?

im here waiting for you to show an evidence that they didn't, you are the one who claim "maybe they didn't knew first.

To "invade" there must be knowledge that those lands belong to someone else AND there must be hostile intentions. So far, the first one is unconfirmed, and the second one is false.

they acknowledge the alterac valley is frostwolf land, and they claim to be visitor in their lands

and you think they didn't knew somehow?

[Zandalariprelate]

I think you're misremembering things. I just checked Chronicle 2 and it's mentioned that nearly all worlds have elemental spirits on them and many have life (p. 12). It's not that what surprised Aggrammar but that Draenor had an exceptional amount of spirit and Chronicle 1 says that it's a lack of spirit that made the Azeroth elementals so mad. The spirit was missing because it was being used up by Azeroth. It's why I mentioned that in Warcraft, worlds and life aren't sustained by just the normal processes, but by magic and that all worlds have magic in them, the world soul is just a particular kind that's extremely rare.

As for the old gods, can you toss me the source on that? As I recall the Void Lords flung them at random and so by default they would usually land on worlds without world souls. If they starve it's because they're inherently parasitic.

Well maybe i misread some parts and maybe it's possible for animal and plant life forms to exist without a titan soul but still intelligent life has been found in planets with a world soul and we have to meet some civilization that lacks a world soul, maybe Kareesh could prove that, considering that void lord that consumed the world didn't went full powerful to start to decimate the universe but maybe the planet was already dead by the arcane forces liberated when he was summoned. Still remember the overgrown is already there just like the 4 old gods from Azeroth when Aggramar arrived there, doesn't mean anything more interesting happened before like for example Xal is actually an old god that was consumed before the titans and evergrown could be an colonial hivemind that arrived on draenor throw an asteroid crash.

The titans more or less enhanced worlds, but they usually aren't lifeless.

The old god on Draenor did not exist there to begin with, some Arrakkoa tried to summon him back in bc, prior to that old gods did not exist there and the only void shenanigans on the planet were introduced through the naaru.


We don't know if the old gods cannot migrate in some form to another world afterwards, if the situation back in outland is any indication it might be possible for them to have their essence travel to another world once they are finished with a planet.

That is a very good point, besides warcraft steals a lot of things from lovecraft and travel between space and time is frequent with the eldritch abomination of said universe like the Mi-Go or even Cthulhu does.

[Gann Stonespire]

Perhaps Baine should just shut up and be quiet as his people die in a senseless war that only exists because one particular leader can't fathom the idea that peace could exist and thinks is better to strike first, without any provocation, and attempt genocide on an entire race?

You mean like how he allowed the Dwarves who committed genocide against his people to not only go unpunished, but that he dishonroably broke the blood oath that all Horde members have a right to retaliation by exiling the tauren who stopped those genocidal dwarves and the Alliance thugs assaulting the gate of Mulgore.

Or how he gave the locations of his soldiers to the Alliance, causing the deaths of many tauren?

Perhaps Baine should just shut up and be quiet as their warchief breaks her own word when she planed to deny free will to a forsaken?

Derek is not Forsaken.

Baine, however broke a blood oath to the Horde granting all members the right to retribution and failed his people, when he exiled their defenders to cowbow to the Alliance, though.

[sillag]

tbh i hated baine but as the only character in this entire fucking horde to have taken a stand for his beliefs i have to respect the guy at least a little. even if the way he did it was just embarrassing and him getting marched off by sylvanas while whining instead of just stomping her and winning the battle of azeroth then and there is stupid.

not like anyone else in the entire horde has a spine between them apparently. they deserve sylvanas.

dont get me wrong im not saying baine is even a good character. he's just a step above pretty much every other horde leader who just awkwardly hung around the campfire mumbling about how someone should really think about maybe rebelling one of these days

[Gann Stonespire]

tbh i hated baine but as the only character in this entire fucking horde to have taken a stand for his beliefs i have to respect the guy at least a little. even if the way he did it was just embarrassing and him getting marched off by sylvanas while whining instead of just stomping her and winning the battle of azeroth then and there is stupid.

If Baine really stood up for his beliefs, he'd leave the tauren and the Horde to join the Alliance.

[kamuimac]

Sylvanas is senselessly hostile and out for herself, Baine is stupidly devoted to peace to the point it gets his people killed

Neither are good for the horde

How many others feel similarly?

all i want for WoW is to be world of warcraft not pussycraft

at this point they could as well give Orgrimmar to allience that how shit golden's writing is.

[Ielenia]

im here waiting for you to show an evidence that they didn't, you are the one who claim "maybe they didn't knew first.

I'm not claiming as a fact that they didn't. I'm claiming they may not have known. You even repeated my own words.

they acknowledge the alterac valley is frostwolf land, and they claim to be visitor in their lands

and you think they didn't knew somehow?

Maybe because they found that out AFTER the fact? After the original expedition was attacked? Y'know, that's how you know when you're trespassing on unknown lands? Not hard to figure that one out.

- - - Updated - - -

So you followed me to this thread, now?

Derek is not Forsaken.

So "free will" are only to those who obey the Lich Queen, I mean, the Banshee Queen?

Baine, however broke a blood oath to the Horde granting all members the right to retribution and failed his people, when he exiled their defenders to cowbow to the Alliance, though.

I'm pretty sure the Blood Oath only means one faction stopping another from enacting retribution. Like, in that example, the Horde stopping the Taunka from fighting against the Scourge who attacked them time and again. I don't think it says anything about how one faction deals with their own members, in this case, Baine dealing with the Tauren who wanted retribution.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, no. You asked me to "show you the wars Alliance started". Here, so you don't accuse of me "straw-manning" you again (while you have no clue on what straw-man is):


The word "how" wasn't even present in that paragraph. You're making shit up about your own posts at this point. Not just any post of yours, your previous post. You know, the one that's quoted by me in the post you're replying to here, making it easy as hell for everyone to see how you're making shit up about your posts. So why even bother doing so?

So other than you changing your question after the fact and hoping it will stick (it did not), I most certainly did answer your question.

Oh, forgive me if it was too much expect of you to understand the basic implications within the question. You know that I would be asking how it happened.

You have to perform Olympics levels of mental gymnastics to twist the source in which Stormpikes themselves admitted to be trespassing on Frostwolf territory into a source of Horde starting the conflict. Newsflash that you apparently need: trespassing is in itself an act of aggression. Frostwolves had all the right in the world to defend their land from unwanted visitors.

The only "mental gymnastics" here is coming from you, actually stating that a peaceful expedition was somehow "being hostile". "Trespassing" is only "hostile" if it's done intentionally. I have not seen a single bit of evidence that the dwarves knew of the Frostwolves' claim to those lands prior to their arrival to Alterac.

Maybe the quest says nothing of the sort, so you're reaching for something that doesn't even exist. Yet another non-argument on your part.

You know what doesn't exist? Evidence for your claim that the dwarves "intentionally invaded", i.e., knew that those lands belonged to the Frostwolves.

Except it's not a wild guess, it's a result of multiple previous quests of investigation. The guy was an ex-Kirin Tor Mage himself so he was knowledgeable about the arcane. And the last two quests confirmed his conclusion. The why of them doing it is irrelevant to the topic.

"They must be doing X" shows so much confidence and results of "previous quests of investigation"...

Here's a hint: when someone says "they must be doing X" it means they're guessing.

I have no idea which part of "Dalaran isn't Gilneas" you don't understand. Ambermill receiving support from Dalaran after some Kirin Tor Mages moved in there in no way shows that the town wasn't abandoned by Gilneas because THE KIRIN TOR AREN'T GILNEAS. That everything north of the Greymane Wall was abandoned by Gilneas comes from Alliance's goddamn quests. You don't even know the quests of the faction you're arguing in favor of. You. Have. Nothing.

Except if they would not be be saying "support from Kirin Tor" if Kirin Tor was all that was there.

Then why can I quote you saying earlier in the thread that Alliance sent troops to Silithus only in response to Horde preparing for war and sending their own army to Silithus first? Here:

Because you completely missed the point. The Horde troops being sent to Silithus weren't being actually sent to Silithus. I never said "the Horde is going to war on Silithus" as an actual event. I simply pointed out that this was the information fed to the Alliance spies.

I know you already said you know it happened. I already addressed it. And I already said you knowing it doesn't negate your handwave, it's the goddamn requirement. You're struggling with understanding what you're replying to every second paragraph in this exchange. Perhaps get some rest?

And your claim that Genn didn't suffer a single reprimand and a slap on the wrist is yet another blatant falsehood. Both him and Rogers got a stern talk from Anduin on their behavior. Which covers both the reprimand and the slap on the wrist.

And you're not handwaving anything? So do you admit that your narrative that Alliance is only ever on the defensive is a blatant falsehood?

Then you don't know the definition of "handwave".

Except my link outright proved me right

No, it didn't. Because it doesn't state that the dwarves knew that the Alterac lands were claimed already when they first arrived. You cannot call it an "instigation" if it's done accidentally. You're basically saying that if I accidentally step on your toes as I turn around, it means I'm actively looking for a fight with you.

Yes, people usually don't operate in a vacuum and tend to have reasons for things like declarations of war. That in no way changes the fact he's the one to declare it.

Who exactly do you consider "instigating for war"? The side who openly declares war, or the side who causes the other side to declare war?

I'm not even sure what argument are you trying to make here. That the first expedition didn't bring tanks and they only came later? You do realize the Dwarves got into the Barrens for the exact same archaeological purpose as they did in Alterac Valley and still brought tanks with them there, right?

If you want to make that argument, sure. But we're talking about Alterac, here. Where the expedition came peacefully and were attacked.

[Trassk]

Whelp your all off by a mile anyway, he's saved, he arrived in kalimdor, as sylvanas buggers off to claim power for herself.

so, you know, screw on that one.

[Gann Stonespire]

I'm pretty sure the Blood Oath only means one faction stopping another from enacting retribution. Like, in that example, the Horde stopping the Taunka from fighting against the Scourge who attacked them time and again. I don't think it says anything about how one faction deals with their own members, in this case, Baine dealing with the Tauren who wanted retribution.

No, it says retribution is a right to all members of the Horde.

Baine broke the oath by giving the survivors of Taurajo the same punishment as Magatha for retaliating against the Attacking Alliance.

Compare that to Anduin, who you say is less forgiving and lenient then Baine, only giving Genn and Rogers a slap on the wrist for breaking the treaty with the Horde.

That completely invalidates Baine caring about Tauren. If he cared, he wouldn't break the oaths of the Horde, let the Stonespire be genocided by dwarven criminals, do nothing when the gates of Mulgore were sieged, ETC.

People like you like Baine only because he's a member of the Alliance in all but name who would let the Horde be slaughtered in favor of the Alliance.

The only "mental gymnastics" here is coming from you, actually stating that a peaceful expedition was somehow "being hostile". "Trespassing" is only "hostile" if it's done intentionally. I have not seen a single bit of evidence that the dwarves knew of the Frostwolves' claim to those lands prior to their arrival to Alterac.

As a hero of the Stormpike, you may choose one item from these recently plun... er, recovered treasures.


Quoted from a member of the Stormpike admitting to stealing Frostwolf treasures after a PVP quest in Alterac Valley. Plundering and killing the land's inhabitants, real peaceful.

Mental gymnastics is you saying these guys were peaceful and Baine is an honorable Horde patriot.

[Mehrunes]

Oh, forgive me if it was too much expect of you to understand the basic implications within the question. You know that I would be asking how it happened.

Except the basic implication of you wanting to be shown the wars started by the Alliance would be showing you the war, not how it happened. You didn't ask a question even remotely indicating that you wanted an explanation. This is sad even when contrasted to your previous non-arguments. And they were plenty sad already.

The only "mental gymnastics" here is coming from you, actually stating that a peaceful expedition was somehow "being hostile". "Trespassing" is only "hostile" if it's done intentionally. I have not seen a single bit of evidence that the dwarves knew of the Frostwolves' claim to those lands prior to their arrival to Alterac.

Trespassing in another country is inherently hostile and the state has the inherent right to remove trespassers. Also, you're the one who brought up them not knowing it was Frostwolf land in the first place, despite the fact that the quest says nothing of the sort. So the burned of proof rests on you here.

But you're not providing any proof. Why is that? Oh, right. Because the quest revolves around Stormpikes making excuses for their actions. As such, if they really did not know it was Frostwolf territory, how comes they are not including that bit among their excuses and only talk about how Frostwolves reacted too harshly (as if they could dictate that) even though it would be logical for them to mention that? As such, your position is illogical and you realize yourself it's illogical. That's why you're not providing anything here.

So sorry, but your "no u" is as ineffective as the rest of your non-arguments.

You know what doesn't exist? Evidence for your claim that the dwarves "intentionally invaded", i.e., knew that those lands belonged to the Frostwolves.

Are you parodying Inception here now and making up a non-existed claim "of mine" in a post about the evidence for that "claim" not existing? I didn't write shit about them "intentionally invading" specifically. You're conflating my post with @Gann Stormpire's, I think. I wrote about either them trespassing there, as in the post you're replying to here or, as I phrased it initially:

Alliance incursion into Barrens, Mulgore and Alterac Valley in Vanilla was Alliance instigating things.

Them being unaware Frostwolves were there is irrelevant to the fact that they did commit an incursion. I didn't say squat about whether it was intentional or not. And since you're the one rising that tangent and trying to conjure something vindicating the Alliance out of that, as already noted, the burden of proof in regards to that rests on you.

And speaking of which, this entire nonsense about "my" claim is nothing more than a whataboutism you made in order to deflect from the fact that your fantasy of Stormpikes totally not knowing the Frostwolves were there is based on absolutely nothing whatsoever.

"They must be doing X" shows so much confidence and results of "previous quests of investigation"...

Here's a hint: when someone says "they must be doing X" it means they're guessing.

I'm not sure which part of the later quests confirming their suspicion eluded you, but by this time this is par for the course, I suppose.

Except if they would not be be saying "support from Kirin Tor" if Kirin Tor was all that was there.

Except as you yourself noted before it said they were receiving support from Dalaran. Because, newsflash, Ambermill isn't Dalaran. Silverpine received support from Undercity as well. Does it make it Gilneas too in your mind? I mean, it isn't Undercity, so obviously there's no relation between the two! But that would be nonsense.

Ambermill not being Dalaran doesn't magically make the Kirin Tor wizards that arrived there to capture it Gilneans. They are referred to as Kirin Tor, they wear Kirin Tor tabards, they are fucking Kirin Tor. Accept it, accept being wrong and move on.

Because you completely missed the point. The Horde troops being sent to Silithus weren't being actually sent to Silithus. I never said "the Horde is going to war on Silithus" as an actual event. I simply pointed out that this was the information fed to the Alliance spies.

Then your argument is a complete non-sequitur to what you were responding to. Because you tried to use "the Alliance was merely responding!1!!11! to the Horde" in order to vindicate the Alliance. And it doesn't. Because, as my initial argument already explained, the Alliance sent their army to Silithus in order to contest Horde's maneuvers, which is Alliance preparing to act in hostile manner to the Horde. And them being misguided by the Horde about where they are actually sending the Horde forces doesn't change it one bit.

Then you don't know the definition of "handwave".

Right. You making the claim that poor Alliance is only ever on the defensive and making inconsequential (and wrong) arguments about Stormheim and its follow up in order to support said claim is totally not you trying to hand-wave Stormheim. Got it. Makes all the sense in the world. Just like the fact you admit the Alliance did attack the Horde in Stormheim - which is you disproving your own claim - makes all the sense in the world.

No, it didn't. Because it doesn't state that the dwarves knew that the Alterac lands were claimed already when they first arrived. You cannot call it an "instigation" if it's done accidentally. You're basically saying that if I accidentally step on your toes as I turn around, it means I'm actively looking for a fight with you.

You're comparing apples to oranges and pretending you have an argument. Ignorance isn't an excuse in legal and diplomatic matters. If you accidentally cross the borders of a state the officials that find you doing so won't give a shit that you can't comprehend borders and will be completely within their rights to detain you.

Who exactly do you consider "instigating for war"? The side who openly declares war, or the side who causes the other side to declare war?

But I didn't even bring the Alliance declaring war on the Horde as an example of them instigating things. You're touting at windmills here. And Varian's personal mistreatment wouldn't constitute a valid casus belli. On top of that, the direct reason for him declaring war was the fact that Horde beat him to defeating Varimathras and prevented him from snatching a Horde capital from them as he (obviously peacefully) intended.

If you want to make that argument, sure. But we're talking about Alterac, here. Where the expedition came peacefully and were attacked.

Because they violated Frostwolve's sovereignty, giving them the right to react to that violation as they please. Them being "peaceful" doesn't give them carte blanche to go wherever they want. And there's no indication the Dwarves were using those tanks in Barrens and Mulgore against the Horde to get to where they wanted to get, so you're looking at a difference that doesn't exist. While deliberately missing the point about those tanks to begin with.

[Ielenia]

No, it says retribution is a right to all members of the Horde.

I'm sorry, but in the way it was worded it makes it means that the "blood oath" is only about between nations, and not how one nation should govern itself.

And the evidence for that is the fact no one, not even Garrosh himself, spoke about this supposed "break of the blood oath" regarding Baine's decision.

As a hero of the Stormpike, you may choose one item from these recently plun... er, recovered treasures.

After their war has started. Spoils of war are a thing, you know? Again, the events you're talking about up there happened after their conflict escalated.

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Except the basic implication of you wanting to be shown the wars started by the Alliance would be showing you the war, not how it happened. You didn't ask a question even remotely indicating that you wanted an explanation. This is sad even when contrasted to your previous non-arguments. And they were plenty sad already.

Fine. If you wish to be spoon-fed, I'll word my questions in a way you can understand.

Trespassing in another country is inherently hostile and the state has the inherent right to remove trespassers.

Hostility denotes intention. I haven't seen any indication the original expedition had any hostile intentions.

Also, you're the one who brought up them not knowing it was Frostwolf land in the first place, despite the fact that the quest says nothing of the sort. So the burned of proof rests on you here.

The quest itself said peaceful expedition. If the dwarves knew of the Frostwolf presence in the territory I find it unlikely they'd go there 'in peace' considering all the atrocities that the orcs perpetrated in the immediate past.

Also, I feel I must stress this out: I'm not saying that the dwarves not knowing the Frostwolf's existence in the area as a fact, but a possibility.

Them being unaware Frostwolves were there is irrelevant to the fact that they did commit an incursion.

But is relevant to the idea of them being hostile.

I'm not sure which part of the later quests confirming their suspicion eluded you, but by this time this is par for the course, I suppose.

Then I'll spell it out for you since the obvious eludes you: even if their guesses were later confirmed, the Horde still attacked first. Which means this was the Horde doing the instigation, not the Alliance. Otherwise... Genn's attack on Sylvanas cannot be considered "instigation" because his hostility was validated by the end.

Right. You making the claim that poor Alliance is only ever on the defensive and making inconsequential (and wrong) arguments about Stormheim and its follow up in order to support said claim is totally not you trying to hand-wave Stormheim. Got it. Makes all the sense in the world. Just like the fact you admit the Alliance did attack the Horde in Stormheim - which is you disproving your own claim - makes all the sense in the world.

Yes, the Alliance is always on the defensive because the wars are started by the Horde. Garrosh, and now Sylvanas. And by that I mean actual wars, and not isolated battles that never pan out. The Alliance so far has done nothing but defend themselves.

Because they violated Frostwolve's sovereignty, giving them the right to react to that violation as they please. Them being "peaceful" doesn't give them carte blanche to go wherever they want.

Except I never said it gives them "carte blanche" or any such nonsense. But it doesn't change the fact a peaceful, non military expedition was killed for something they might not even have known they were doing.