[Spoilers] Jaina.

[Zandalariprelate]

Yes. I've been saying this since war of thorns. In art, in action, in story, Sylvanas alone owns Teldrassil. She's also one of the last pillars of the faction divide pre-BFA:

Genn has backpedaled on his sweeping hate for the forsaken. Now it's all Sylvanas to him.

Jaina has been reined in and, despite this thread's premise, is now positioned in a way to end the faction divide.

Sylvanas is being personified as the heart of the faction divide. Her war on hope is thematically required to fail. They're not going to put such a /wrist moment in this game where "oh Sylvanas is right, we should all just give up on everything." More than burning Teldrassil, declaring war on hope in Before the Storm and then with the burning itself was what doomed her.

Assuming the Sylvanas pillar is knocked over, the only one left that didn't exist before BFA (I will fully admit that Rastakhan/Talanji and Teldrassil/Tyrande may be new, persisting pillars) is the truly villainous Characterization of the forsaken. There can't be any kind of mechanical unity while the forsaken are the cartoon villain race... but the seeds are planted and that tree rhymes with Calia Menethil. A re-casting of the forsaken as "patriots of Lordaeron" might be what they do there.

My god all of that sounds horrible, without mention Calia outright says she doesn't know anything about leading and being a light undead is literally dumb as Nazis riding Dinosaurs with lasers. Just hope the forsakens get ruled by any new forsaken character introduced in 8.2/8.3 or get the troll treatment, after all they strike me as a society capable of exist without a real leader but they will need someone to be their voice in the horde meetings and leading their armies.

[Dartz1979]

Jaina is such a sexy waifu that and she is the only good looking female mage left on lore.

[Zandalariprelate]

Jaina is such a sexy waifu that and she is the only good looking female mage left on lore.

What about Thalyssra or Azshara? I though elves and tentacles were you thing as well

[Shampro]

My god all of that sounds horrible, without mention Calia outright says she doesn't know anything about leading and being a light undead is literally dumb as Nazis riding Dinosaurs with lasers. Just hope the forsakens get ruled by any new forsaken character introduced in 8.2/8.3 or get the troll treatment, after all they strike me as a society capable of exist without a real leader but they will need someone to be their voice in the horde meetings and leading their armies.

That sounds horrible enough to be belivably what they do, yes. I can't wait to laugh at how they just try to shove and justify Calia in, and replace one of the most iconic characters in the story with a nobody with a recognizable last name. They've already hit rock bottom, they can still reach the crust.

[Zandalariprelate]

That sounds horrible enough to be belivably what they do, yes. I can't wait to laugh at how they just try to shove and justify Calia in, and replace one of the most iconic characters in the story with a nobody with a recognizable last name. They've already hit rock bottom, they can still reach the crust.

You know I always fond funny how many people likes to emphatizes in new characters that are literally a worse version of some previous character, literally Baine and Anduin are boring, bland and everything goes well for them without any repercusion. Calia is the same from a vague lore character to something stupid and being used as some device of Golden of unification. Yeah I will welcome Kael'thas again with a proper arc to burn down the humans or make Arthas/Archimonde returns and finish off some human kingdomes

[tripleh]

Imagine now if they all of a sudden had Sylvannas acting how Jaina is. Wanting peace between the factions. Jaina is going back to her hippy ways now that Thrall is returning. World of peacecraft inc!

[Overlordd]

Can we just end this story.
It's obvious that Baine's imprisonment is suddenly such a big deal because he is besties with Anduin.
Even though Baine only helped Jaina with family affairs that alone is a good enough action to condone the Horde as honorably by the Alliance as a whole.

This is just Golden's fanservice at work.

[Freshouttajail]

They think we see this:



But we see this:



Morally stupid.

Rofl, an image is worth a thousand words, right?

[eurojust]

This is the first time I heard someone calling information referred to quotes taken directly from the books (which, mind you, are stated by Blizzard to be "more canon" than in-game events due to gameplay & lore segregation) "headcanon". Perhaps you might want to do a little bit more reseach about the lore? Humor me, which part of my post was headcanon?

Mal'ganis already being inside the city didn't matter that much, since he can't teleport the entire city at once. Once people are quarantined properly into their own houses / rooms, there'd be little Mal'ganis could do without anyone noticing. Sure, he can attempt to break in a family, kill them and teleport them away - then he'd have to face Arthas & Uthers' paladins, if not Dalaran's mages that Jaina would be calling over for help as well.

The idea that there were other ways to save the city is where your headcanon lies. You also misunderstood the story if you think that Arthas wanted to kill people because he's a psycho. Saving his people was actually his top priority, malganis forced him to kill them, hence why he became mad and wanted revenge at all cost.
The story is really simple to follow, it's even spelled for children to understand :
"Mal'Ganis led Arthas to Stratholme, and left him with the choice of either slaughtering all of its inhabitants or watching them fall to the plague. Arthas chose to kill his own subjects rather than let them become slaves to Mal'Ganis in death, killing most of the inhabitants of the town".

And yes, Malganis being inside mattered because he was teleporting every citizen into his army outside. Once again play the game.

[Zandalariprelate]

There is nothing dump about Nazis riding Dinosaurs with lazers. Especially if the Dinosaurs are given proper SS uniforms.

I also disagree that things are fully painted so as to scapegoat Sylvanas. We see that even Theron is worried that his people might back her. It certainly seems like the majority of the Horde army is in favour of this war. It's unclear where civilians stand, but given that the Horde is not exactly a collection of democracies, civilians don't matter (heck orc peons are little better than slaves).

I mean civilians are probably aboard as well but I am sure most of then doesn't want to go full genocide or so far like Golden painted in Elegy. The blood elves in general probably has a low opinion in humans and their politics which doesn't go better with the nelves situation being literally alone without any real support(nope the player doesn't count because you can't refuse by in-game mechanic). The alliance does a lot of bad shit(not in the same level as the horde currently) but all of that is always ignored because of their own image, we never saw Anduin having a stern talk with Tyrande about her behavior toward Thalyssra and ignoring her tries to talk with her in orden to join the alliance(only the horde picked the phone of recruitment).

However they made Sylvans sent Theron and I think Nathanos near of Nazjatar as bait so Azshara will destroy the alliance fleet and I believe everything will be blamed to the dagger influence with N'zoth which will also destroy the concept of the "undead inmunity". This last thing has an interesting implication because Bolvar could be controlled by Yogg-Saron or maybe he died and Yoggy took the body as some meat puppet.

[Omedon]

My god all of that sounds horrible, without mention Calia outright says she doesn't know anything about leading and being a light undead is literally dumb as Nazis riding Dinosaurs with lasers. Just hope the forsakens get ruled by any new forsaken character introduced in 8.2/8.3 or get the troll treatment, after all they strike me as a society capable of exist without a real leader but they will need someone to be their voice in the horde meetings and leading their armies.

It doesn't have to be Calia, but when Sylvanas' arc runs its course, she will not be a PC racial leader. She doesn't have to die, she just needs to not be "the person the hero of the world canonically looks to as a leader."

Lillian Voss would also be acceptable because she's very much the "free will" side of forsaken conscience. They need to lean on that if they're not going to put Calia on the throne.

[Zandalariprelate]

It doesn't have to be Calia, but when Sylvanas' arc runs its course, she will not be a PC racial leader. She doesn't have to die, she just needs to not be "the person the hero of the world canonically looks to as a leader."

Lillian Voss would also be acceptable because she's very much the "free will" side of forsaken conscience. They need to lean on that if they're not going to put Calia on the throne.

Calia is now a naaru puppet, it will be pointless to make Sylvanas break the free will rule only to make place for Calia to take over and she starts to do the same thing again.

Also nobody in the horde wants an alliance leader and I am sure the same thing with the alliance or would you like to see Garona leading the draenei?

[huth]

bolded text literally outlines her stance on the matter, she still doesnt like the Horde after all the shit theyve pulled, but understands that bigger fish need to fry first before they get back to killing the Horde

Does it make sense logically, after throwing a tantrum during Legion, for her to do this? Not much tbh... but thats been BFA's logic the entire time: to not have any.

She did have quite a bit of character development since that tantrum. You have to play Alliance to see it, though.

[Super Dickmann]

Calia is now a naaru puppet, it will be pointless to make Sylvanas break the free will rule only to make place for Calia to take over and stars to doing the same thing again

You overestimate the writing staff and you labour under the assumption that anything that has God-King Anduin's fingerprints on it could possibly be wrong. Calia is just a nice lady that wants to save the Forsaken from their evil oppressive ruler and the Forsaken themselves are just useless sadsacks who's only meaning in life is being acknowledged by those who hold human potential.

Christ, do I despise BTS.

[Zandalariprelate]

You overestimate the writing staff and you labour under the assumption that anything that has God-King Anduin's fingerprints on it could possibly be wrong. Calia is just a nice lady that wants to save the Forsaken from their evil oppressive ruler and the Forsaken themselves are just useless sadsacks who's only meaning in life is being acknowledged by those who hold human potential.

Christ, do I despise BTS.

Calia and the naaru will be villains in orden to make Anduin more holier than light itself.

[Zandalariprelate]

What behavious towards Thalyssra? Expressing your reasonable doubt about leftover highbourne who abandoned her and the rebellion while they were dying just a hill over to defend them from the Legion perhaps not having everyone's best interests at heart is now reprehensible?

She could be a bit more nice and probably the nightborne would be neutrals as pandarens. She accepted the mage highborne from ferales, so why would doubt about Thalyssra which has thebsame arc as her in the Wota?. For worse she is a fanboy of Anduin in Elegy and even taking seriously his dumb advise to staying in Stormwind rather than fighting with Malfurion

[Zandalariprelate]

I am sorry but your entire concept is just bullshit. Blizzard wanted to give the Nightborne to the Horde and could not even bother to come up with a proper excuse. Thalyssra tells us she doesn't want to join the Alliance because they are too "cloistered" and then joins the Horde where Sylvanas immediately forces an oath of absolute obedience on her yet she does not even blink. She ALWAYS had the choice to also just stay neutral you know. Because right now if the Alliance decided to occupy Suramar, it would be an entirely legitimate target because of HER idiocy.

Good thing they alliance is very thin to do such thing, also the highmountain will help the suramar elves. However the point blizzard gave was a low hit about how the alliance sucks your personality and all the spotlight are given to humans.

Something that is painfully true with: their traditions overwriters yours or something like that is said in the scenario.

Yes i know the real reason was to give void elves to the alliance and horde gots a weird mix of night elves

[Gaidax]

Pragmatic Jaina is the best really. I really like her BfA storyline and glad to have her back on track.

[Qualia]

The idea that there were other ways to save the city is where your headcanon lies. You also misunderstood the story if you think that Arthas wanted to kill people because he's a psycho. Saving his people was actually his top priority, malganis forced him to kill them, hence why he became mad and wanted revenge at all cost.
The story is really simple to follow, it's even spelled for children to understand :
"Mal'Ganis led Arthas to Stratholme, and left him with the choice of either slaughtering all of its inhabitants or watching them fall to the plague. Arthas chose to kill his own subjects rather than let them become slaves to Mal'Ganis in death, killing most of the inhabitants of the town".

And yes, Malganis being inside mattered because he was teleporting every citizen into his army outside. Once again play the game.

Please read my posts carefully: I didn't say that there was guaranteed to be other ways. I said that there might be other ways. Thing is, canonically, no one there could know if it was entirely hopeless yet. Not Uther, not Jaina, and not Arthas. Jaina who had much better magical understanding than Arthas, for example, and she still believed that there could be a chance to find a cure. Heck, even by now, her regrets were not that she didn't help Arthas, but she didn't forcefully using magic to stop him. That's how a normal people would / should think. A normal person don't go directly to "Oh, they are infected by this extremely dangerous and infectious plague, let's kill them all". It's much more humane and reasonable to think like Jaina / Uther, that there might be some ways to save them, or at least, to spare the ones who were NOT infected. There were many people who were still healthy, as Arthas himself noted. That's why I call it the act of a lunatic - he came straight to, and stuck to his decision to kill everyone else without even attempting to find a cure. Being able to find a cure or not was NOT the point - the point was whether he was willing to TRY to save them first. Again, look at my example: if a dangerous, infectious new disease appeared in one city real life, do you think anyone suggesting to nuke the city first without trying anything else wouldn't be called a deranged / lunatic / psychopath?

Mal'ganis was able to freely teleport citizens because those were citizens were NOT quarantined and watched. If Arthas put everyone in quarantine, with the help of Uther's troops and Dalaran's mages (as Jaina already said she'd teleport to contact Antonidas, as seen in "Rise of the Lich King"), Mal'ganis would have a much harder time to teleport more than a few families without having to fight through an army of paladins / mages first.

If Arthas has tried to quarantine people and failed at it - be it that they fail to find a cure in time (that's the likely possibility), or they turned out to be hopeless against Mal'ganis and lost a number of troops / citizens to him, then proceed to come to his decision in blood and tears, he'd have appeared much more human. The fact that he didn't even think about trying to help them and forced his own idea (that they'd rather die (right there) than risk turning into undead) to them was what made him evil - as Blizzard themselves called him such. I'm not even sure why you are arguing against Blizzard, to be honest - it's not like I randomly call him "evil" on my own. It's true that Arthas was also affected by hatred and grief from what he experienced in Hearthglen - however, unlike Jaina, he didn't snap out of it and realized his mistake.

[Uurdz]

After flip flopping so many times between "Kill the Horde" and "Work with the Horde" that it seems like mental illness...she's flopped again. In Legion when the entire planet was about to be destroyed, she threw a hissy fit and AFK'd the entire expansion rather than ally with the Horde. Now in BFA, with the Horde actively genociding and trying to wipe out her people, we get this Jaina:

???: Hold on... Are you suggesting we lay down our arms and fight beside them? After all they've done?!
Jaina: No. Merely that we direct our efforts against Azshara instead of the Horde.

Her hatred will have been tempered by Baine. She is accepting the knowledge that Sylvannas is not universally supported and while she will still fight the horde tooth and nail, she will understand that Azshara is wholly bad (100% a threat) while the horde is marginally less bad (90% a threat).

Further it is a well understood military strategy that the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

As for Legion, Jaina's rejection of the Horde was to JOINING the Kirin Tor. Following the numerous betrayals the horde have committed this is understandable. While it was odd she did not appear at all throughout all of Legion. Regardless the two stories are not incongruous.