Teldrassil remains the 10 ton elephant in the room.

[mickybrighteyes]

Don't care, its time of night elf revenge for once.

no nation has gotten any sort of revenge in any capacity. Why should this be any different?

[Syegfryed]

The only horde and alliance people working together are the ones baited by Azshara to her kingdom. As far as I know everyone outside of that place is still killing each other.

people tend to ignore the details, they just see "alliance and horde are now allies and teldrassil is forgiven", but in truth they are just doing a truce, with the people who didn't directly attack teldrassil

its not like they are working with sylvanas and a bunch of orcs there

[Ealyssa]

BfA as a whole is the biggest pile of nonsense ever written for WoW. Barrely anything makes any sense in this expansion lorewise. From the original burning tree sin to the latest "LUL UV BEEN TRICKED TO OPEN THE GATE FOR N'ZOTH".

Sadly nothing makes any fucking sense.

At least for the first time in 15 years. I can say I don't have a single clue about where this expansion will end...

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

it's a pointless avenue though. We won't see real revenge for all deeds... else Stormwind would become a crater thrice over for all the bullshit they've pulled.

You mean like attacking a hostile nation? (Zandalari)

[Niroshi]

Remember how Blizz said the Alliance doesn't have turmoil "yet"?

[GreenJesus]

just spitballing here. but if i had to fix this story. end of 8.3 Sylvanas fucks off eather of her own volition or is forced too Taking Nathan blightcaller with her. Baine, Saurfang or Bob come to power.

their is a bid for atleast a ceasefire. voted in by slight majority vote, by the racial representatives:
on the horde
the ones for a ceasefire are Baine (obviously) Saurfang, Lillian (who replaces Sylvanas), Bob (stuck on the continent with the alliance), Talysra, Mayla and ji.
With only Rokhan, Talanji, Galliwix and Geya'rah Voting against. Talanji is not happy about it but not mutch she can do. with only half a fleet.
so thats 7 to 4 on horde

On the Alliance however the votes are right down the middle.
With votes for being: Anduin (again obviously) Velen, Aysa, Moira (wants a safe world for her son) and Jaina (begrudgingly and she likes to flipflop apparantly)
the votes against being: Muradin, Genn, Alleria, Turalyon, and Tyrande(obviously)
and with Gelbin incappasitated he can't vote.
so the alliance are on 5 to 5.
at this point you could say Anduin might use his position as high king to give his side a half vote to make it 5.5 to 5. just enouth

the ceasefire is made. and the night elves are not happy. at this point the alliance get is own civil war for once

and we see the return of one of my favorite Characters Catherine Rogers. and she sets of the new powder keg again next expansion or the one after that.

its bad i know but. but see what i have to work with i even had to make an excel spreadsheet just to see which race would vote what in my opinion

Who the heck is Bob? Are you talking about Bob Salami? Not sure a death loa would be better than Sylvanas..

[Nenavn]

Tyrande and Malfurion absent in patch 8.2? They might be a little preoccupied with the "vengeance for Teldrassil" thing.

[Kpmk]

Eh, they started a war, they should have been ready to defend their homelands. Sylvanas hit em where they were weak. Just smart tactician that's all.

[mickybrighteyes]

You mean like attacking a hostile nation? (Zandalari)

I would actually mean attacking non-hostile parties, attacking in times of peace, fucking over their allies because they can't be arsed to help out.

But everyone seems to only have a memory going back 2 patch updates.

edit:

forgot about the times they attacked other parties in retribution despite the target not actually directing anything at them, big one that seems to happen more often.

- - - Updated - - -

Eh, they started a war, they should have been ready to defend their homelands. Sylvanas hit em where they were weak. Just smart tactician that's all.

careful now, per canon, Sylvanas started this war. Those goblins in Silithus provoked the alliance by finding and digging into the Wound first. Oh and Sylvanas being attacked by teh 7th Legion was justified and in no way an instigating factor of teh current conflict in anyway shape or form...

oh and that whole mess with Anduin bringing Calia Menethil to Arathi... just more provocation on Sylvanas' part.

How are teh Alliance supposed to pre-emptively defend themselves properly if Sylvanas actually just sits there not attacking them!

[PaladinBash]

Called it before but they're going to make Tyrande out to be a villain for wanting to stop the Horde after their shit. Same way they made Yrel out to be bad for finding a final solution to the orc problem. You can't be Light-aligned, Alliance or good in this setting and be allowed to win or it kinda fucks with things. You can't really think they'd actually let the Alliance have one over on the Horde do you?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I would actually mean attacking non-hostile parties, attacking in times of peace, fucking over their allies because they can't be arsed to help out.

But everyone seems to only have a memory going back 2 patch updates.

edit:

forgot about the times they attacked other parties in retribution despite the target not actually directing anything at them, big one that seems to happen more often.

- - - Updated - - -



careful now, per canon, Sylvanas started this war. Those goblins in Silithus provoked the alliance by finding and digging into the Wound first. Oh and Sylvanas being attacked by teh 7th Legion was justified and in no way an instigating factor of teh current conflict in anyway shape or form...

oh and that whole mess with Anduin bringing Calia Menethil to Arathi... just more provocation on Sylvanas' part.

How are teh Alliance supposed to pre-emptively defend themselves properly if Sylvanas actually just sits there not attacking them!

Oh, so I guess no one should care if North Korea is actively trying to build nuclear weaponry, aiming it towards Japan, etc ... right?

Because you can really only react after your cities are bombed, or plagued, or your citizens planted in the ground as some sort of weird humanoid farm, or maybe plagued again, or your lands ravaged .... right? Because we all know Sylvanas had ourely good intentions, with a good track record.

Seriously this sort of bias is out of this world.

[Mehrunes]

Oh, so I guess no one should care if North Korea is actively trying to build nuclear weaponry, aiming it towards Japan, etc ... right?

Because you can really only react after your cities are bombed, or plagued, or your citizens planted in the ground as some sort of weird humanoid farm, or maybe plagued again, or your lands ravaged .... right? Because we all know Sylvanas had ourely good intentions, with a good track record.

Seriously this sort of bias is out of this world.

And yet all of your examples are Horde's reaction to Alliance, Stormwind in particular, declaring war on them. So great argument in Stormwind's defense you got here. Simply top notch. The last sentence of yours is just lol-worthy in light of that.

[mickybrighteyes]

Oh, so I guess no one should care if North Korea is actively trying to build nuclear weaponry, aiming it towards Japan, etc ... right?

I think the example gets skewed when both nations are effectively pre-emptively defending themselves cause one neither side trusts teh other to leave well enough alone. Do remember that Stormwind has basically played a part in assaulting every horde nation... EVERY HORDE NATION.... because they didn't like some OTHER party within it. Off to go deal with the orcs? They have a side trip to nearly wipe out the dark spear. Getting Back at Garrosh for fucking up some night elves? Instead of spearheading a path to Org they aim at Mulgore.
Garrosh does some dastardly deed? Time to go totally hitler on Dalaran and purge the place! Try and hold Thrall hostage to force Garrosh to back down? Sink some goblins to the depths because they're nearby....

Sylvanas was doing some shady shit... no one knew what said shady shit was... but she was existing and out in the wilds. 7th Legion goes in and tries to wipe forsaken fleet.

Goblins find some new unknown substance that can be used for... things (research not yet conclusive) so SI:7 goes in and starts doing their work on goblins (again) because they exist and are doing things!

yeah at this point the alliance has shown they are unwilling or utterly unable to leave well enough alone so it IS inevitable that they will resume their typical antics of fucking with people they don't agree with because they exist. Therefore it seems either party can make a solid argument that they are preparing to defend themselves. That is until Sylvanas went and escalated on Teldrassil like it was on teh Kelvin scale instead of celsius.

Because you can really only react after your cities are bombed, or plagued, or your citizens planted in the ground as some sort of weird humanoid farm, or maybe plagued again, or your lands ravaged .... right?

apparently dead diplomats, sabotaged/undermind region defenses, civilian deaths, etc only seem to matter in the plot when they were influenced by the power of human potential.

Seriously this sort of bias is out of this world.

Yes, some bias really DOES need to be addressed.


edit:

I want to note I don't imply Sylvanas had good intentions. I will often point out that her intentions and plans aren't fully known and to act against them solely based on "it's sylvanas GET THEM" is not a point for 'good morality' because it's still the same preemptive defense before proving one needs to defend themselves.

[Faerillis]

How would you write it differently?

Sylvanas and the Horde see the Alliance attack on Horde miners in Silithus as an unprovoked attack. In retribution, and to keep Azerite from readily flowing to Stormwind, much of the War of the Thorns happens and the Horde (rather than attack the most impregnable city on Azeroth) blockades Teldrassil. Measured and sensible response; a little disproportionate but not insane.

Now if you're Alliance, this looks bad. Your average citizen doesn't know about Silithus and sees an unprovoked attack, Alliance higher ups think it's disproportionate. Genn and his new lobby of Second War Heroes — including the Grand Marshal (and Former Citizen) of Lordaeron, Turalyon — hear about this and Calia Menethil and use it to force Anduin to attack Undercity. Battle for Lordaeron goes down mostly the same, except Sylvanas and Saurfang have some major tiffs ahead of time (maybe using how he she treats her own citizens as the Siege sets up). Saurfang still gets his cinematic, watches Sylvanas raise Horde soldiers as mindless undead and has his normal scene and gets captured.
If you're Alliance, this gives you a way more proactive stance in this whole debacle. If you're Horde, you just lost a capital to an Alliance assault that was definitely uncalled for BUT Sylvanas still knew she was going to lose the fight and plagued the place to smithereens.

Battle takes place on the Blockade surrounding Teldrassil as the Horde scrambles to take enough ground before the Alliance Navy shows up in full. Sylvanas decides to use new Azerite weapons on the Tree to make the siege go faster. Something unexpected happens and the Tree burns down. It remains unclear if Sylvanas knew it would burn down (probably did given Blizzard's direction with Sylvanas this expac). Parts of the Horde celebrate, parts are horrified, Saurfang gets the Alliance take on it and is ofc horrified. The Alliance is rightfully pissed. Oh and the massive firestorm engulfing the gigantic tree, the falling debris, fire and ash? Yeah wrecks both the Alliance and Horde Navy to no small degree.

Look! Both sides actually have reasonable motives and some moral grounds, while still ending up at a place of "Hey Wtf Sylvanas."
Do you know how long it took me to think of that? Less time than it took to type it.

[avitush]

Yeah....nothing is going to happen. Teldrassil will be completely forgotten by the end of the expansion. At most, we might get another one of those "We will end you" lines.

[bowlink]

Who the heck is Bob? Are you talking about Bob Salami? Not sure a death loa would be better than Sylvanas..

Lorthremar'theron is sutch a pain to spell someone ones called him bob. so i did too

[Irian]

If it wasn't obvious yet, Blizzard has a habit of treating mass slaughter and loss of life as a plot point to sell expansions rather than an actual meaningful part of a story.

Yes, the Alliance having any lenience or cooperation with the Horde makes no sense when we think about how many Horde soldiers stood by or even cooperated as a tree full of innocents was torched and destroyed. Civilians including wives, children and hibernating druids were likely killed by the thousands and it's just played off as a minor point.

I'm honestly convinced that someone at Blizzard has a chip on their shoulder about night elves. The amount of times they get their ass handed to them by the Horde, their god awful model revamps with the bizarrely terrible female faces and males that still look like an eyebrow kid going through puberty, and their general inconsequential or even downright obnoxious presence in the story otherwise all add up to an image of a company that legitimately dislikes a fictional race they created.
I don't even play or personally like night elves myself but looking back on the story since Cataclysm it feels like they've been weirdly targeted by Blizzard as the whipping boy race for the Horde.

[Qualia]

Then let the Horde STAY evil instead of making half arsed rebellion plots ALL THE TIME. It isn't that hard.

But there are non-evil leaders in the Horde. Horde can't stay "evil" as long as they are around, so either you get rebellion plot or those need to die. Not to mention that in WoW, evil - especially evil looking to massacring the other side - don't win for obvious reasons, so it's rather infeasible for any faction to remain evil for long as long as Blizzard want to keep the 2 factions system around. Just like how Blizzard would need an asspull to make current Genn, Turalyon (and Muradin as well) to be vehemently against peace trety, they'd need a similar one to make Baine, Lor'themar evil and Saurfang being fine with massacring innocent children (the Panda as well but they have been relatively irrelevant in the plot).

All in all, Blizzard should have made it a clash of ideology rather than just good vs evil (even though they said both sides are of gray morality, so far it didn't seem they are executing that idea well).

[Aurabolt]

<SNIP

Worry not. Not everything requires a buildup. Case Example: Jaina purging the Sunreavers from Dalaran in retaliation for the Divine Bell being stolen from Darnassus.

It was swift, sudden and had a ripple effect she had no way of knowing about because she acted on her own: Varian was pissed at her for not talking to him first since he reveals he'd been having secret talks with Silvermoon City about the Blood Elves rejoining the Alliance. Jaina's stunt fucked that up since it was no secret the other Horde leaders were feeling alienated by Garrosh. Varian was looking to exploit that but Jaina acting on her own fucked that up.

In this case Tyrande, Malfurion and Genn are the wildcards Alliance side. Their "absence" from 8.2 is intentional and folks need to chill. Nazjatar is nothing more than a good distraction. Would Tyrande and Malfurion have loved to have been there to personally fuck up Azshara? Absolutely. Will they find out from Shandris what happened later? Of course.

Teldrassil isn't forgotten. The plot twist eluded to...it's coming in 8.3.

[masterjc]

Reading through 8.2 the dialogues there are only some brief mentions of it.

Horde and Alliance characters begin to work together again to some degree but in practice it is complete and total cooperation again.
Jaina speaks about vengeance but also of a peaceful resolution with the Horde.

Vengeance on who? Sylvanas on her lonesome? That is justice. Not vengeance.
So the Horde is innocent in all this? Did I not play a whole expansion with the Horde behaving monstrously?
That's not even my words. It's Jaina's and every other Alliance character except for Andiun.

Lorethemar quoting Taran Zhu. That to stop a war all we must do is walk away. Well. That is quite ironic coming from him after how his people and faction he belongs to (After making it clear he is proud to be part of the Horde still) committed Genocide.

Saurfang getting quippy wih Shaw and Jaina in regards to Battle for Dazaralor when Teldrassil is literally his fault or at the very least complicit.

Tyrande and Malfurion missing completely from 8.2 as far as we can see so we can't see their perspectives yet.
In all honesty any dialogue line in relation to peace, replacing Sylvanas being a solution and vengeance while working with Horde rings hollow.
Even Lorthemar admits the Horde supports Sylvanas and everything she is doing. He doesn't even know if the Blood Elves will follow him.

Blizzard went too far with Teldrassil.
No Horde character seems to even remotely care or indicates the Horde rank-and-file support it.
How could there be any possible peaceful resolution?
Blizzard claims that last time the Horde did not learn their lesson on what it means to be Horde. Well are they giving ANY indication that they are learning?
I personally don't think so.

Blizzard is adamant that this is not yet another MoP. Well we are one "We will end you" dialogue line away from the MoP plot.
I have no idea what Blizzard is doing but all I can do is assume the worst.

they will add Malfurion. Tyrande,Gallywix and Nathanos as World bosses in nazjatar.
they dont want to cooperate with enemy faction. so they become defeatable loot pinatas

Horde can fight either god mode Tyrande who is surrounded with naga and horde corpses or attack Malfurion who has hord ecorpses in which lots of thorns and trees come out

when defeated Tyrande flies away. and Malfurion turns into a tree. while horde go get some peons to get him cut down he escapes. idk

Gallywix woll be doggong a new hole for azerite and when alliance attacks he uses upgraded mechanism from Gelbins escape pod. but it keeps him alive. instead of frozen.
and Nathanos one shots all alliance as a World Boss. than he is out of arrows and leaves. after it Tyrande arrives. says some "mah vegeance" and ress all back. and whoala. u get shiny loot

this all is pretty stupid. but could solve that shit from Blizzard than what they do themselves