Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[rda]

You mean other than:

Manafort
Netyksho
Gates
Internet Research Agency

Manafort was indicted on tax fraud, bank fraud and failure to disclose a foreign bank account, and convicted on about half of the counts.

Where's conspiracy? If you mean bank fraud conspiracy, that was about him getting loans under false info.

[Frusciante]

You mean other than:

Manafort
Netyksho
Gates
Internet Research Agency

Wrong.

Manafort and Gates - "...impeding, impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful governmental functions of a government agency, namely the Department of Justice and the Department of the Treasury." That's their conspiracy charge.

Where is the stuff you're talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

He talks about this here:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51109380

As far as I can see, this boils down to the rather obvious observation that when you are trying to accuse a president, you better be prepared to prove it because you are going to get challenged hard. I am not sure there's anything else, like a legal requirement to do something special for the president (plus there are people besides the president involved, so why not charge them if the only thing stopping you is those supposedly higher standards).

Very good point - It's what everyone is missing. If there is anything there, the people involved with the campaign would have been indicted on it. Don't forget that this was an investigation about Trump's campaign colluding...not Trump himself. It's interesting to see that some went down for other crimes, but nothing specifically on colluding with Russia.

[Gorsameth]

Where does it say that Trump asked them for the help and that they were working together? Please point me to specifics in the report.

The polling data being send to a Russian is the biggest connection between the Trump Campaign and Russia. There is no way to find what happened with the data after it was handed over but I would consider it reasonable to assume that data was used to steer the IRA's messages.

[rda]

The polling data being send to a Russian is the biggest connection between the Trump Campaign and Russia. There is no way to find what happened with the data after it was handed over but I would consider it reasonable to assume that data was used to steer the IRA's messages.

Right. Do you think the investigation did not check whether this assumption has any ground by inspecting IRA's activities and lining up dates around the meeting? Because they absolutely did that, that's a no-brainer. Finding nothing. But, hey, you can do it yourself if you want.

[Orbitus]

Where does it say that Trump asked them for the help and that they were working together? Please point me to specifics in the report.

“I will tell you this: Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” he said. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” - Donald Trump. Hours later, they did hack her emails.

Then you have Manafort giving polling data that targeted the states he barely won to Konstantin Kilimnik, and then The Trump Tower meeting.

[rda]

“I will tell you this: Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” he said. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” - Donald Trump. Hours later, they did hack her emails.

That's a clown saying a stupid thing and someone in Russia going "hey, let's do it, we don't really care who to hack, so let's hack Hillary like that guy asked, that's both hilarious and may get us additional leverage".

You don't seriously think this was a coordinated message like in the spy movies with a response, do you? Like someone putting a cactus into his window, or wearing a black-red tie in order to send a super-secret signal? In any case, if you do, be sure to tell Mueller, because he doesn't think this has any legs, he just notes what happened for completeness and offers no judgement.

[Noradin]

You're trying to project usual Western approach to Russia.

The USA are actually more east of Russia than west of it :P

[Orbitus]

That's a clown saying a stupid thing and someone in Russia going "hey, let's do it, we don't really care who to hack, so let's hack Hillary like that guy asked, that's both hilarious and may get us additional leverage".

You don't seriously think this was a coordinated message like in the spy movies with a response, do you? Like someone putting a cactus into his window, or wearing a black-red tie in order to send a super-secret signal? In any case, if you do, be sure to tell Mueller, because he doesn't think this has any legs, he just notes what happened for completeness and offers no judgement.

Do you enjoy being wrong? Because it seems you like supporting liars and thieves.

[rda]

Do you enjoy being wrong? Because it seems you like supporting liars and thieves.

If you think I am wrong, show me why.

[Shalcker]

Do you enjoy being wrong? Because it seems you like supporting liars and thieves.

And you're supporting liars (and perpetuating their lies way past the point where they are debunked).

[Draco-Onis]

That's a clown saying a stupid thing and someone in Russia going "hey, let's do it, we don't really care who to hack, so let's hack Hillary like that guy asked, that's both hilarious and may get us additional leverage".

You don't seriously think this was a coordinated message like in the spy movies with a response, do you? Like someone putting a cactus into his window, or wearing a black-red tie in order to send a super-secret signal? In any case, if you do, be sure to tell Mueller, because he doesn't think this has any legs, he just notes what happened for completeness and offers no judgement.

You do realize he repeated this publicly several times right? As per the Mueller report it's pretty clear they legitimately wanted Russia's help and were more than happy to use the data but the campaign was just too messy and stupid to coordinate things properly.

[rda]

You do realize he repeated this publicly several times right? As per the Mueller report it's pretty clear they legitimately wanted Russia's help and were more than happy to use the data but the campaign was just too messy and stupid to coordinate things properly.

So, you are going with the notion that this was a coordinated message from Trump to Russia. You mean he was saying these things sending a signal. For real.

Any proof? No? (Of course, no. That's just you assuming things because you like how they sound.)

---
Actually, wait. Here's a message from me to Russia (and China):

Russia, listen. Please hack Hillary again. Hack Trump, too. Steal all their porn and post it. China, you too.

Here, I "legitimately want Russia (and China)" to do something, and if they do it, you don't need anything else to establish that this happened because of me asking.

[rogueMatthias]

“I will tell you this: Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” he said. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” - Donald Trump. Hours later, they did hack her emails.

If you genuinely think that was a deliberate and real request, rather than a dumb joke, you're not even worth arguing with.

The report makes it pretty clear that Trumps "collusion" and "conspiracy" with Russia was non-existent. People seriously need to stop beating this dead horse now.

As for the "Obstruction", even the report makes clear how damned difficult is is to prove criminal intent given there was provenly no conspiracy with Russia. Though a lot of the actions he took look dodgy as hell, they can too easily be described as the actions of a pissed off person trying to end a (what he supposedly sees as) completely made up investigation from continuing to undermine his presidency as a political witch-hunt, rather than an attempt to obstruct the truth from coming out.

[Edge-]

If you genuinely think that was a deliberate and real request, rather than a dumb joke, you're not even worth arguing with.

Out of curiosity, how many other presidential candidates have "jokingly" asked a hostile foreign government to engage in espionage against their political opponents?

Is this the type of "joking" that we should find acceptable from candidates/presidents?

The report makes it pretty clear that Trumps "collusion" and "conspiracy" with Russia was non-existent. People seriously need to stop beating this dead horse now.

Largely because they were too incompetent, but not for lack of trying.

As for the "Obstruction", even the report makes clear how damned difficult is is to prove criminal intent given there was provenly no conspiracy with Russia.

That's not accurate, it's clear that Mueller is abiding by DOJ guidelines regarding indicting sitting presidents which is why he declined to recommend any action there and left it up to Barr. He also repeatedly pointed out that Congress has the clear authority to take action here and that it appears he feels there's a credible case to be brought.

You don't need to commit the underlying crime to be guilty of obstructing justice, just ask Martha Stewart.

Though a lot of the actions he took look dodgy as hell, they can too easily be described as the actions of a pissed off person trying to end a (what he supposedly sees as) completely made up investigation from continuing to undermine his presidency as a political witch-hunt, rather than an attempt to obstruct the truth from coming out.

Wait, so repeatedly telling staff to break the law in order to protect yourself is something you'll handwave away because, "He was mad"? You sound like Barr, who sounds like his top defense attorney (he's not) and his top PR rep (he's not that, either).

Your analysis of the report is deeply flawed.

[some guy]

I do love how if Trump says something that later paints him negatively, it's obviously a joke.

[rda]

If you genuinely think that was a deliberate and real request, rather than a dumb joke, you're not even worth arguing with.

The report makes it pretty clear that Trumps "collusion" and "conspiracy" with Russia was non-existent. People seriously need to stop beating this dead horse now.

As for the "Obstruction", even the report makes clear how damned difficult is is to prove criminal intent given there was provenly no conspiracy with Russia. Though a lot of the actions he took look dodgy as hell, they can too easily be described as the actions of a pissed off person trying to end a (what he supposedly sees as) completely made up investigation from continuing to undermine his presidency as a political witch-hunt, rather than an attempt to obstruct the truth from coming out.

Thank you.

---
Anyway, since I am apparently a Trump defender, I'll play ball and report that:

* Trump has been successfully defended.
* There will be no impeachment (that's my prediction).
* There will be no indictment of Trump after his term based on Mueller's report / Russia in general (another prediction, I am sure whoever talks about this actively now will find reasons not to do it, and will ultimately congratulate themselves on being very smart).

With that, I see nothing further to discuss, so if anyone sees me in this thread starting tomorrow, I owe you $10 - quote this post to me and I will wire it. I am sure the core of the posters will find plenty of reasons to continue bashing the old horse - or maybe they will invent a new horse to bash - don't want to waste any of my time on this, hence the self-fine.

[Draco-Onis]

So, you are going with the notion that this was a coordinated message from Trump to Russia. You mean he was saying these things sending a signal. For real.

Any proof? No? (Of course, no. That's just you assuming things because you like how they sound.)

---
Actually, wait. Here's a message from me to Russia (and China):

Russia, listen. Please hack Hillary again. Hack Trump, too. Steal all their porn and post it. China, you too.

Here, I "legitimately want Russia (and China)" to do something, and if they do it, you don't need anything else to establish that this happened because of me asking.

You mean besides the numerous public statements and the indictments of the Russian operatives showing that they acted after he made those public pleas? Or are you referring to the fact that even to this day Trump has not taken a solid stance that the hacks did happen and he will act to prevent it?

- - - Updated - - -

If you genuinely think that was a deliberate and real request, rather than a dumb joke,

Oh yea totally a dumb joke which is why he repeated in several settings including interviews, I swear each time Trump does something awful it's a "joke". Trump is not known for his jokes, is he the president of the US or an act at the Apollo?

[Orbitus]

Thank you.

---
Anyway, since I am apparently a Trump defender, I'll play ball and report that:

* Trump has been successfully defended.
* There will be no impeachment (that's my prediction).
* There will be no indictment of Trump after his term based on Mueller's report / Russia in general (another prediction, I am sure whoever talks about this actively now will find reasons not to do it, and will ultimately congratulate themselves on being very smart).

With that, I see nothing further to discuss, so if anyone sees me in this thread starting tomorrow, I owe you $10 - quote this post to me and I will wire it. I am sure the core of the posters will find plenty of reasons to continue bashing the old horse - or maybe they will invent a new horse to bash - don't want to waste any of my time on this, hence the self-fine.

How can you not be a Trump defender? You have spent a lot of time defending him, if you aren't defending Trump.

[Grapemask]

Oh dear, did rda need to come back and earn today's wages?

[Frusciante]

Do you enjoy being wrong? Because it seems you like supporting liars and thieves.

So did Trump know they were going to start hacking that day? That was his sound off to Russia? You understand how ridiculous that is?

So they were told by the Trump campaign to not hack until he mentioned in on live tv. He was working with them the entire time. Can you prove that?

I want to add that nothing in the Mueller report seems to claim this idea. If this were true then they would have found collusion / cooperating correct? How is it that man such a Mueller, the guy that you worshipped for 2 years, couldn't put 2 and 2 together but you could?