Remember that Baine broke Oaths to the Horde even before the rebellion

[Gann Stonespire]

Lore says one of the unbreakable oaths of the Horde is:

"Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde."


Yet in Tides of War, Baine says fuck that shit and exiles the tauren braves defending the great gate of Mulgore from the Alliance military simply due to his Alliance obsession. This included the tauren that helped him reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem.

No wonder why virtually only Alliance players like Baine..

[Florena]

Wasn't the actual quote from the novel rather vague about who exactly was exiled? I don't recall it saying they were the ones defending the gate etc just that there were some Tauren that wanted to attack the alliance and were banished.

[Gann Stonespire]

Wasn't the actual quote from the novel rather vague about who exactly was exiled? I don't recall it saying they were the ones defending the gate etc just that there were some Tauren that wanted to attack the alliance and were banished.

He says those fighting the Alliance like everyone at Vendetta point were exiled.

Vendetta point was in charge of defending the great gate of Mulgore and only gave defensive quests. It also consisted of Baine's supporters, so basically he backstabbed his allies with that move.

[Wilfire]

Yeah, Baine is not a great leader. But neither are the rest of Horde leaders. At this point I don't know why the Horde even exists as a political entity. All of its members are at each other's throats. Please Anduin, dismantle the Horde and absolve me of my sins.

[Grazrug]

Yet somehow that mad woman Christie Golden tries telling us something about him being the best the Horde has to offer. It is a shame how pathetic this faction has becoming since human potential and bad writing are in full swing.

[Powerogue]

Lore says one of the unbreakable oaths of the Horde is:

"Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde."


Yet in Tides of War, Baine says fuck that shit and exiles the tauren braves defending the great gate of Mulgore from the Alliance military simply due to his Alliance obsession. This included the tauren that helped him reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem.

No wonder why virtually only Alliance players like Baine..

You actually got me to look up a summary of that book to see if you were right https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/6412104763 and I found this gem:
----------------
"Most of the civilians of Theramore, except those that stood behind stubbornly, were evacuated on a ship heading to Gadgezan."
"...but the Horde had no way of knowing this."
----------------
So points to Team Garrosh, albeit unintentional ones.
----------------
"Malkorak and the Korkron go to the inn where Baine and other malcontents had been gathering, burning the place to the ground and using frost and frag grenades to kill a blood elf and forseken member who had been seen speaking with Baine and Vol'jin and questioning Garrosh."
----------------
Points lost to Team Garrosh for attempting to murder two other Horde leaders and civilians.
----------------
"Baine calls him out, saying he's going back to Thunder Bluff with his Braves, that his loyalty to the Horde is deep, but if Garrosh wants his support again there must never be another Theramore."
----------------
I would assume Sylvanas was also aware of this position of his.

https://gamestoday.info/pc/world-of-...of-the-tauren/ this source also seems to have some good exerpts from the book providing context.
----------------
"Baine felt as if his own core were molten with outrage. It was with the greatest of efforts that he had kept from exploding in anger when Malkorok had challenged him. He was not afraid Malkorok could defeat him—by all accounts, Cairne had been winning the battle against Garrosh, before Magatha’s poison had claimed him. Baine bore his father’s blood and he had youth on his side. No, he had declined because there was no way to truly win. Poison would be used again, but better hidden this time. Or even if he slew Malkorok, there would be an ambush waiting in the shadows. And then, what would happen to his people? There was no clear successor yet. Garrosh would somehow see to it that a tauren was appointed whose thinking was more in line with his own—or who could be persuaded to think so.

No. His people needed him alive. And so, Baine would live, and do what he was ordered to do. Exactly, and only, what he was ordered to do."
----------------
This one's huge as a reference to "hurr durr why doesn't he just mak'gora Sylvanas?" Hell, at this point I wouldn't put it past her to kill him, raise him as a mindslave like Derek, and plop him right back on the throne.

I can barely even find what you're freaking out so much over as more than a footnote, often just skipped over. Always mentioning that they "suffered no other repercussions." Weighed against what most of the other Horde racial leaders as of late have been doing to dissidents, he was pretty fair. He is their leader, and they were resisting his orders. Imagine if Sylvanas had done that to Zelling or The Desolate Council instead.

Reflecting on this book, Baine has always done what he thought was best for his people, and has been levelheaded, merciful, and fair in doing so. The things people freak out so much with him "conspiring with the alliance!" have been entirely him repaying Jaina for her helping to protect his people.

[Gann Stonespire]

but if Garrosh wants his support again there must never be another Theramore."

Thats even more of Baine being a scumbag as Theramore was absolutely a military target, having funneled troops into the barrens for years.

[Powerogue]

Thats even more of Baine being a scumbag as Theramore was absolutely a military target, having funneled troops into the barrens for years.

And Teldrassil wasn't.

Sylvanas knew such an atrocity would do this to Baine, just as much as she knew taunting Saurfang with the prospect of raising him into undeath like his son would shake him.

She brought this on herself.

[Gann Stonespire]

And Teldrassil wasn't.

Sylvanas knew such an atrocity would do this to Baine, just as much as she knew taunting Saurfang with the prospect of raising him into undeath like his son would shake him.

She brought this on herself.

You know this topic is not about Sylvanas.

Sylvanas being bad doesn't make Baine not a shitty traitor to the Horde.

[Nirn]

Never liked Baine, I would have preferred a leader that comes from the Grimtotem tribe, at least that would be refreshing. Showing the non-pacifistic and warlike side of the Tauren species.

- - - Updated - - -

Thats even more of Baine being a scumbag as Theramore was absolutely a military target, having funneled troops into the barrens for years.

Whoever thinks that Theramore Isle was not a significant military threat to the Horde, and therefore a legitimate target, has probably never read a book on basic geopolitics. You do not allow the enemy to have a major port city near your capital, ever.

[Nathasil]

Never liked Baine, I would have preferred a leader that comes from the Grimtotem tribe, at least that would be refreshing. Showing the non-pacifistic and warlike side of the Tauren species.

- - - Updated - - -




Whoever thinks that Theramore Isle was not a significant military threat to the Horde, and therefore a legitimate target, has probably never read a book on basic geopolitics. You do not allow the enemy to have a major port city near your capital, ever.

And whoever claims Theramore was fair game for the Horde probably never played the most important lore source for WoW: WC3. If you played the Orc campaign you would understand why there is a special relationship between The Horde, Jaina and Theramore.
I am not saying it was not a military target...but it was far more than that. Garrosh knew that. That's why he wanted to attack it. Think about it: He had a weapon nobody anticipated that strong. The Horde has Zeppelin outposts in Stranglethorn. It would have been perfectly possible to bomb Stormwind, which would have been a much bigger military priority. He went for Theramore only because he knew Jaina was the greatest ally of the Horde within the Alliance and he wanted to break this band.

That's what makes the attack an attocity instead of a "good military move". Also, Garrosh was the one who started the war. This whole nonsense about Orgrimmar being in need of more resources is completely made up. Stormwind relies on Westfal for food and Westfal has been shit for 15 years now...do you see them starving in the streets? No. Last time i checked, the Horde had Druids, too and Azshara is not a wasteland. Why did they not grwo more food there, right next to the Org city-gates? Because Garrosh wanted a war. That's why. And starting a war and THEN saying "You are my enemy and your city is too close to my territory!" is clever use of game mechanics - at best.

[Gann Stonespire]

That's what makes the attack an attocity instead of a "good military move". Also, Garrosh was the one who started the war. This whole nonsense about Orgrimmar being in need of more resources is completely made up. Stormwind relies on Westfal for food and Westfal has been shit for 15 years now...do you see them starving in the streets? No. Last time i checked, the Horde had Druids, too and Azshara is not a wasteland. Why did they not grwo more food there, right next to the Org city-gates? Because Garrosh wanted a war. That's why. And starting a war and THEN saying "You are my enemy and your city is too close to my territory!" is clever use of game mechanics - at best.

No Varian started it in WOTLK.

And Theramore sponsored/worked with the dwarves of Bael'dun who killed the entire Stonespire tribe in cold blood.

[matrix123mko]

Yet somehow that mad woman Christie Golden tries telling us something about him being the best the Horde has to offer. It is a shame how pathetic this faction has becoming since human potential and bad writing are in full swing.

And Sylvanas, only rational Horde leader, is about to die.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

No wonder why virtually only Alliance players like Baine..

I actually registered just to answer to this reply. I was always browsing MMO-C forums before, but I never commented on anything. But because I saw many threads about Baine being a traitor etc. I also wanted to give my opinion on this topic.

You say "No wonder why virtually only Alliance players like Baine...". I don't think this is true. Not only Alliance players like Baine. Tauren players like Baine too. Also everyone who is a fan of the old horde likes Baine. The only people I see hating Baine on the official forums or anywhere else are always Undead or Bloodelf players (Or Warlock or Rogue players) who talk about betrayal etc.

I wonder if any real Tauren players really see it this way. I think most of the Tauren players are very much on Baines side.

Also these people always mention Camp Taurajo and Baine being a traitor to his people. But I don't think most of the real Tauren players see it this way. I very often do Tauren RP and if you know Tauren Lore, Baines actions are very consistent to Tauren Culture. He acts exactly the way a Tauren would act. Tauren Culture is all about balance and peace as well as caring for nature. For most Tauren players Baine is their Chieftain and not a traitor. I agree that Baine could be written better as a character. But his morals and actions very much resemble Tauren culture.

Never liked Baine, I would have preferred a leader that comes from the Grimtotem tribe, at least that would be refreshing. Showing the non-pacifistic and warlike side of the Tauren species. [/U]

I also have to disagree with Nirn here. The Grimtotem Tribe were the ones who poisoned Cairne. These are the real traitors. I don't think the current Tauren would follow someone of the Grimtotem Tribe. If you want Grimtotem leaders, you don't want the actual Tauren who formed the Horde anymore. You want Garrosh Kor'kon 2.0 instead.

Tauren are one of the lesser played Horde races. The most played horde race is Bloodelf. So no wonder why you see so many posts about Baine's "betrayal". Even though the Lor'themar also betrays Sylvanas. But it seems like most Bloodelf players like Sylvanas more than their actual leader.

Sometimes I am a little bit sick of Bloodelf-, Undead-, Nightborne- etc. players telling me about how I as a Tauren should view my Chieftain. I think he does his job very well and represents what Tauren are about. And it is always players of any other race other than the Tauren which bring up Taurajo. If you know your Tauren Lore you know why Baine's actions are consistend with Tauren culture.

Baine is the perfect leader of the Tauren, because he represents exactly what Tauren are about. Anything else would be Sylvanas 2.0 or Garrosh 2.0.

I still agree that he could be better written and I also think there should be more Tauren lore. But still, his actions represent exactly what Tauren would do.

But not everything has to do with Blizzards bad writing. Even with good writing Baine and the Tauren would still behave peaceful and they would still take similar actions. Good writing would maybe add more complexity to the characters. But still, Tauren would be peaceful. It wouldn't be consistent with Tauren Culture to seek vengeance. It also wouldn't be consistent to blindly follow Sylvanas. You can't simply make Mulgore Tauren not behave like Mulgore Tauren. Otherwise they would be Grimtotem Tauren. And the Grimtotem Tauren where those who cowardly poisened Cairne so that he looses the battle against Garrosh.

It would be even more shitty writing to make every horde race blind Sylvanas followers. At least the actions of Baine are somewhat consistent to his character and Tauren Culture.

[Grazrug]

And whoever claims Theramore was fair game for the Horde probably never played the most important lore source for WoW: WC3. If you played the Orc campaign you would understand why there is a special relationship between The Horde, Jaina and Theramore.
I am not saying it was not a military target...but it was far more than that. Garrosh knew that. That's why he wanted to attack it. Think about it: He had a weapon nobody anticipated that strong. The Horde has Zeppelin outposts in Stranglethorn. It would have been perfectly possible to bomb Stormwind, which would have been a much bigger military priority. He went for Theramore only because he knew Jaina was the greatest ally of the Horde within the Alliance and he wanted to break this band.

That's what makes the attack an attocity instead of a "good military move". Also, Garrosh was the one who started the war. This whole nonsense about Orgrimmar being in need of more resources is completely made up. Stormwind relies on Westfal for food and Westfal has been shit for 15 years now...do you see them starving in the streets? No. Last time i checked, the Horde had Druids, too and Azshara is not a wasteland. Why did they not grwo more food there, right next to the Org city-gates? Because Garrosh wanted a war. That's why. And starting a war and THEN saying "You are my enemy and your city is too close to my territory!" is clever use of game mechanics - at best.

You can blame the stupid decision on Thrall alone, about why Orcs settled in the worst wasteland on all of Kalimdor. Even Tanaris has rich underwater sources, proven by Goblins. Green guilt made Thralls judgement dizzy and clouded.

[Mehrunes]

----------------
"Baine calls him out, saying he's going back to Thunder Bluff with his Braves, that his loyalty to the Horde is deep, but if Garrosh wants his support again there must never be another Theramore."
----------------
I would assume Sylvanas was also aware of this position of his.

Why? Sylvanas wasn't present there and the leader of the forces she sent was killed by Malkorok. It's not like she's Baine's pen-pal, that's his dom Blanduin.

https://gamestoday.info/pc/world-of-...of-the-tauren/ this source also seems to have some good exerpts from the book providing context.
----------------
"Baine felt as if his own core were molten with outrage. It was with the greatest of efforts that he had kept from exploding in anger when Malkorok had challenged him. He was not afraid Malkorok could defeat him—by all accounts, Cairne had been winning the battle against Garrosh, before Magatha’s poison had claimed him. Baine bore his father’s blood and he had youth on his side. No, he had declined because there was no way to truly win. Poison would be used again, but better hidden this time. Or even if he slew Malkorok, there would be an ambush waiting in the shadows. And then, what would happen to his people? There was no clear successor yet. Garrosh would somehow see to it that a tauren was appointed whose thinking was more in line with his own—or who could be persuaded to think so.

No. His people needed him alive. And so, Baine would live, and do what he was ordered to do. Exactly, and only, what he was ordered to do."
----------------
This one's huge as a reference to "hurr durr why doesn't he just mak'gora Sylvanas?" Hell, at this point I wouldn't put it past her to kill him, raise him as a mindslave like Derek, and plop him right back on the throne.

That's just a lazy cop-out on Baine's part. Being the leader of the Tauren he should have made contingency for the case of his death if he was afraid he'd be targeted by Garrosh's forces if he accepted a Mak'gora from Malkorok. But he didn't, because he's a coward and this line is nothing more than a coward. Or because he's an idiot that can't think things through. Probably both. I have no idea how this is supposed to be an excerpt proving that Baine was honorable, courageous and acted for the good of the Tauren.

Projecting that onto Sylvanas' reign has even less value.

I can barely even find what you're freaking out so much over as more than a footnote, often just skipped over. Always mentioning that they "suffered no other repercussions." Weighed against what most of the other Horde racial leaders as of late have been doing to dissidents, he was pretty fair. He is their leader, and they were resisting his orders. Imagine if Sylvanas had done that to Zelling or The Desolate Council instead.

Except they weren't dissidents.

Sylvanas knew such an atrocity would do this to Baine, just as much as she knew taunting Saurfang with the prospect of raising him into undeath like his son would shake him.

Except there's nothing indicating that she knew it. Even if she did, that doesn't free Baine from his obligations to the Horde. If he can't handle those obligations he should have just killed himself and cleansed the world of the disgrace that he is. Baine's betrayal is entirely on Baine.

And whoever claims Theramore was fair game for the Horde probably never played the most important lore source for WoW: WC3. If you played the Orc campaign you would understand why there is a special relationship between The Horde, Jaina and Theramore.
I am not saying it was not a military target...but it was far more than that. Garrosh knew that. That's why he wanted to attack it. Think about it: He had a weapon nobody anticipated that strong. The Horde has Zeppelin outposts in Stranglethorn. It would have been perfectly possible to bomb Stormwind, which would have been a much bigger military priority. He went for Theramore only because he knew Jaina was the greatest ally of the Horde within the Alliance and he wanted to break this band.

There was no special relationship between the Horde and Theramore. There was only one between Thrall and Jaina. Theramore under Daelin waged war against the Horde while Jaina merely stood aside. After Daelin despite supposed peace Northwatch (i.e. Theramore's subject) kept harassing the Horde and so did even Theramore's soldiers in Dustwallow.

And even if that wasn't the case (which it is), that wouldn't have given Theramore a carte blanche protecting them from Horde's retaliation after Theramore:
1. invaded Barrens and captured a Horde outpost there;
2. invaded Durotar and planned an attack on Orgrimmar itself already in 4.0;
3. became a staging ground for Alliance offensive against the Horde in central Kalimdor and let Alliance reinforcements from EK pour through straight into the frontline with the highway they built specifically for this purpose;
4. tried to invade Mulgore;
5. aided Alliance in Stonetalon and Azshara.

And we have Garrosh's internal monologues on his plans. Somehow they don't corroborate your claims.

That's what makes the attack an attocity instead of a "good military move". Also, Garrosh was the one who started the war. This whole nonsense about Orgrimmar being in need of more resources is completely made up. Stormwind relies on Westfal for food and Westfal has been shit for 15 years now...do you see them starving in the streets? No. Last time i checked, the Horde had Druids, too and Azshara is not a wasteland. Why did they not grwo more food there, right next to the Org city-gates? Because Garrosh wanted a war. That's why. And starting a war and THEN saying "You are my enemy and your city is too close to my territory!" is clever use of game mechanics - at best.

Except Chronicle v3 makes it explicitly clear that Alliance declared the war in 3.0. Anyone still trying to peddle the idea that the Horde started the war is engaging in blatant fanfiction.

And your claim about Westfall is nonsense. Yes, the people were starving in Storwind's lands. That's the entire goddamn reason why Defias saw a resurgence. Stormwind was so short on food they sent farmers to reclaimed land in the Plaguelands to get more food. You don't even know Alliance's story...

On top of that Thrall outright confirms that Durotar is a shithole and that he deliberately settled the Orcs there so they'd suffer in the name of "atonement" in the Shattering.

Also these people always mention Camp Taurajo and Baine being a traitor to his people. But I don't think most of the real Tauren players see it this way. I very often do Tauren RP and if you know Tauren Lore, Baines actions are very consistent to Tauren Culture. He acts exactly the way a Tauren would act. Tauren Culture is all about balance and peace as well as caring for nature. For most Tauren players Baine is their Chieftain and not a traitor. I agree that Baine could be written better as a character. But his morals and actions very much resemble Tauren culture.

So who did he exile for wanting revenge for Taurajo? Quillboars? Or were those Tauren that he exiled no true Scotsmen? I mean, not true Tauren?

Sometimes I am a little bit sick of Bloodelf-, Undead-, Nightborne- etc. players telling me about how I as a Tauren should view my Chieftain. I think he does his job very well and represents what Tauren are about. And it is always players of any other race other than the Tauren which bring up Taurajo. If you know your Tauren Lore you know why Baine's actions are consistend with Tauren culture.

Since when is betraying one's faction for their human master what Tauren are all about? Or general Alliance sycophancy? If you think Baine represents what Tauren are all about you have a terrible opinion of the Tauren. Which, in light of you being their self-proclaimed fan, makes your post a giant self-contradiction.

Baine is the perfect leader of the Tauren, because he represents exactly what Tauren are about. Anything else would be Sylvanas 2.0 or Garrosh 2.0.

A false dichotomy isn't an argument.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

So who did he exile for wanting revenge for Taurajo? Quillboars? Or were those Tauren that he exiled no true Scotsmen? I mean, not true Tauren?

Jeah. They were Tauren. But they were Tauren who acted against the ways of the Tauren of the Bloodhoof Tribe. This is not the way of the Bloodhoof Tauren. They can join the Grimtotem if they want vengeance and rage.

Since when is betraying one's faction for their human master what Tauren are all about? Or general Alliance sycophancy? If you think Baine represents what Tauren are all about you have a terrible opinion of the Tauren. Which, in light of you being their self-proclaimed fan, makes your post a giant self-contradiction.

The Tauren only joined the Horde because Thrall helped them. Tauren aren't blindly loyal to the Horde. They were loyal to Thrall. The only real thing they are loyal to is nature and their own tribe. Tauren also respect honor. But what they don't respect is blind rage and warmongering.

It does seem like you don't know anything about Tauren lore at all. You seem to want to teach me about Tauren lore, when it is very clear that you don't understand Tauren culture and Tauren lore at all.

A false dichotomy isn't an argument.

I guess there are other alternatives for Baine. But the peaceful ways are consistent with his character. Also this wasn't an argument. I just wanted to state that the other alternatives mentioned in this thread seem to be Garrosh 2.0 or Sylvanas 2.0. The other alternatives are simply not consistent.

The only inconsistency with Baine's character is that he hasn't already opposed Sylvanas at the beginning of the expansion.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

So who did he exile for wanting revenge for Taurajo? Quillboars? Or were those Tauren that he exiled no true Scotsmen? I mean, not true Tauren?


Since when is betraying one's faction for their human master what Tauren are all about? Or general Alliance sycophancy? If you think Baine represents what Tauren are all about you have a terrible opinion of the Tauren. Which, in light of you being their self-proclaimed fan, makes your post a giant self-contradiction.


A false dichotomy isn't an argument.

Your comments seem like you don't really understand Tauren lore and Tauren culture. Tauren aren't about loyalty to the horde. They were loyal to Thrall. But they are not loyal to Sylvanas. And Sylvanas actions hurt the Horde and especially the Tauren. Baine is still true to his character. And still, Tauren are peaceful. They are not warmongers like the Orcs or the Undead. In fact I think Tauren are the only "True Good" - Race in WoW, who were always about peace and preserving nature.

Turning the last peaceful race into warmongers like all the other races would be shitty writing, because it wouldn't be consistent. This is not what Tauren are about.

[Powerogue]

Except they weren't dissidents.

angry tauren: Vengeance!
Baine: No vengeance! Wall!
angry tauren: Too bad, vengeance anyway! * go off to fight alliance *
Baine: Fine then, don't come back.

Unless you've got a clearer quote from the book than the ones I used, that's how I read it. That's acting against the wishes of leader, and as I made very clear, Sylvanas has done more for less. A good chunk of the Desolate Council at The Gathering didn't even do anything wrong, Sylvanas's only reason to kill them was them not sharing her mindset of pessimism and self-hatred. That being the strongest example of "other Horde leaders punishing dissent far more harshly so Baine really doesn't look bad by comparison."

Reflecting on the whole "oath of retribution" thing, Baine didn't deny them the ability to get said retribution, nor did he in any way banish them from the Horde as a faction.

[Super Dickmann]

angry tauren: Vengeance!
Baine: No vengeance! Wall!
angry tauren: Too bad, vengeance anyway! * go off to fight alliance *
Baine: Fine then, don't come back.

Unless you've got a clearer quote from the book than the ones I used, that's how I read it. That's acting against the wishes of leader, and as I made very clear, Sylvanas has done more for less. A good chunk of the Desolate Council at The Gathering didn't even do anything wrong, Sylvanas's only reason to kill them was them not sharing her mindset of pessimism and self-hatred. That being the strongest example of "other Horde leaders punishing dissent far more harshly so Baine really doesn't look bad by comparison."

Baine is pure garbage and your reading of events is wrong.

The Wall was already up well before Taurajo happened. Baine didn't build it in reaction. The wall was also a ghastly failure that Theramore forces were besieging. Only Bloodhilt and the tauren from Vendetta Point (that got exiled later for self-defense) were the ones to prevent the wall from falling and the Alliance from entering Mulgore. Further, it was an active state of war. Fighting the aggressors in your land during a state of war is common sense. Exiling your own people for defending themselves and later for protecting your land rather less so.

Also, even if 'muh Sylvanas' was a valid argument, it took Sylvanas up to this patch to kill her own troops to advance her enemies' goals, whereas this has been Baine's modus operandi from As Our Fathers Before Us onwards. Killing high-ranking defectors in the process of defection is the actual penalty for treason in virtually all modern states.

@TheTaurenChieftain

Even if that were a valid argument, and it isn't, as people soundly reject the argument that Sylvanas is merely acting as the racial fantasy of the Forsaken requires of her as it's been presented in all cases until BTS bent them over the barrel, the tauren aren't dickless peaceniks. "Death to the enemies of the Horde" was the main line of the tauren warriors in Warcraft 3, Cairne didn't hesitate to kill the centaurs instead of negotiating with them and immediately used the proper channels of war to challenge the Warchief when he got the chance and Baine himself had you kill dwarves and send their broken pickaxes to Ironforge as a message back in Vanilla before he was infected by Anduin into being a gutless pansy.