[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Grimbold21]

Holy damn has this place become a toxic pile. Lets be honest: you would have complained no matter what. Some of the posters here are doing so many mental gymnastics to satisfy their misery fetish. So many armchair analysts...

Back to reddit i guess, at least there's some meaningful discussion instead of just throwing flame balls in a blind rage.

You know you'll watch the next episode. And the next, and the final one. You just cant help yourself than to watch something that apparently causes you so much mental pain.

Pointing out the show's obvious inconsistencies for the sake of action/drama = toxic environment. Alright...

Yes, unfortunately people will. As I mentioned before, GoT, for a lot of people, went from looking forward to watch it, to another exercise of figuring out what stupidity one can pin point. Excuse, but even make that remark is giving the show too much credit, because it does require too much of an effort to notice these things.

[IIamaKing]

I don´t have any clue and arguments so i just stop talking to someone who clearly knows what he/she´s talking about...

Yeah you clearly have shown us your superior knowledge...

I have clearly laid out, multiple times, how Arya has been set up to have the skills required for the kill, you are free to read my other posts. Or, you can, for no good reason, try to act smart and knock a person down you've not engaged with at all prior.

[Kellorion]

How does Arya know what the Night King's weak spot is, or who he is in the first place? Those are far bigger questions than Bran not being able to pick up a dagger. And no, Arya wasn't told about the weakness beforehand as it was Mel who convinced her to go assassinate the King mid battle.

And yeah, I know he was bait. My criticism resides in the fact that the character that is the most closely associated with the Night King and the Ice and Fire plot serves as mere bait for the character that had literally nothing to do with seven and half season's worth of build-up until the beginning of this episode. It feels rushed and hugely anticlimatic, as if the Battle of the Bastards was won by Dany swooping out of the sky and torching Ramsay after he defeated Jon.

She was in all the meetings and planning, Jon told them that Dragon glass and Valyrian steel kill wights and walkers.

[IIamaKing]

How does Arya know what the Night King's weak spot is, or who he is in the first place? Those are far bigger questions than Bran not being able to pick up a dagger. And no, Arya wasn't told about the weakness beforehand as it was Mel who convinced her to go assassinate the King mid battle.

And yeah, I know he was bait. My criticism resides in the fact that the character that is the most closely associated with the Night King and the Ice and Fire plot serves as mere bait for the character that had literally nothing to do with seven and half season's worth of build-up until the beginning of this episode. It feels rushed and hugely anticlimatic, as if the Battle of the Bastards was won by Dany swooping out of the sky and torching Ramsay after he defeated Jon.

A trained assassin Stabbed a target in the heart. She got lucky, I guess in that being the only way to kill him, Thin I know, I can grant that. Who he is, now thats fair, but she isnt dumb, you have a horde of shambling zombies (or w/e) then you have the Walkers, then you have a walker, with a crown, standing over your brother about to strike.

Again, the 3ER, NK lore is weak and unsatisfying, I agree. I think they want to save that for the prequel show, frankly and its a tad bullshit.

[RobertoCarlos]

"Bran was just bait he did nothing"

Without Bran the Nk would have just sat behind his army and stream rolled through.

[crakerjack]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhh

I mean I won't lie, that was a baller move by Arya but I don't think I like it overall. The Night King and his army of omnom zombies have been built up as the big bad for so long that this just felt anticlimactic. So Cersei is the final boss? Fuck. That.

Hopefully they have some twist in mind otherwise this is pretty gross.

You're seriously that gullible to believe the NK was the main antagonist? The moment they showed how the white walkers came to be, it was pretty evident that they don't serve much of a purpose other than to be a threat. I mean, you didn't realize that based off of the first 2 episodes of this season? It was clear they were going to battle the NK before they battled Cersei and her golden compass. Did you think dany and jon were just going to fly away on 2 dragon and leave everyone for dead? Did you think Bran was going to whip out some insane warging ability and have a pissing content w/ the NK about how is more powerful? The only criticism this episode deserves is the massive plot armor on the main characters. There's no way in hell any of the main characters in the front line should have survived, especially Sam.

To be honest, I'm glad they did decide to give plot armor to alot of the main characters. We only have 3 episodes to go and we need our main characters around. Could you imagine how shitty it would have been to lose either tyrion or varys in those crypsts? What makes this show great are all the characters, but specifically those characters where they use secrecy/planning and you're never really sure what's going on. We still have time to see twists unravel and we get to see the real excitement resume.

[Jastall]

She was in all the meetings and planning, Jon told them that Dragon glass and Valyrian steel kill wights and walkers.

Again, the NK was not killed by Valyrian Steel alone, but by Arya hitting his weak spot, the dragonglass embedded within his chest. No, this wasn't shown on screen at all, but was explained by the post-episode talk.

[RobertoCarlos]

I did like how in the post-episode talk they admitted Lyanna was ment as a one scene character.

That was obvious when she kept doing the same thing with the same face and not going anywhere with the character

it also highlights how D&D just give the fans what they want rather than working towards a plan

[eschatological]

You had a point in all that I assume? That was essentially me pointing out that the Faceless Men didn't just use faces to kill people, and you are disputing what? Exactly? Hell I even remember Jaqen murdering around Harrenhall without any face shenanigans, just kinda ninja darting people from behind, or sending people over ledges while being in the followup scene still looking like Jaqen.

I'm disputing that the Faceless Men are ninjas. They're good killers, but they don't stealth around.

In the time it's taken me to catch up on this thread after work, someone mentioned Jaqen killing people to free Arya/Hot Pie. It seems they forgot that Jaqen was conscripted into the guard, and simply betrayed his fellow guards. He didn't need to sneak up on them. Arya gave him the name she wanted, and he delivered.

Even so, Jaqen is the Master of the House of Black and White. Arya failed her training with the Faceless Men. We saw that when she stole the face. We saw that when she hid Needle and some of her things and didn't give up the ghost of being Arya Stark. Her even coming back and going on Arya Stark's revenge mission is a failure of the very basic tenets of the Faceless Men. No Faceless Man would ever say that she belongs to the Faceless Men. That Jaqen isn't after her now is somewhat hilarious.

Why does that matter? Well, the magic the Faceless Men have seems to be divine in nature - granted by the Faceless God. With Arya so wildly flouting their rules and failing her training, it's been long been a concern about why she even has access to faces, let alone any of the "powers" of the Faceless Men, if they have any magical agility/stealth (the stealth, never having been seen on screen or in book before).

All this adds up to this: Arya deus ex'd out of nowhere to killed the NK. I have no problem with Arya killing the NK (except for the thematic betrayal of killing to NK as some one-dimensional distraction), but he should have been alone.

I still have no idea why the White Walkers weren't in the battle themselves.

[Ausr]

In the books it's explicitly stated that Tywin believes Aerys raped his wife. It's part of the reason he's so willing to betray him (the other being naming Jaime to the Kingsguard, preventing him from becoming Lord of Casterly Rock). One of Barristan's POV chapters confirms that Aerys at the very least lusted after her. Tywin was Aerys' hand for a significant amount of time, and thus residing in KL. Motive and opportunity are both present.

Tywin always berated Tyrion, changing from "you're an evil monster and I can't prove you're really my son" to "he's a Lannister, my son" so often it made your head spin. A lot of shit you people say are just things you read too much into and think you're so awesome that you do and have to be "that guy" to have the theory.

[NihilSustinet]

Again, the NK was not killed by Valyrian Steel alone, but by Arya hitting his weak spot, the dragonglass embedded within his chest. No, this wasn't shown on screen at all, but was explained by the post-episode talk.

if it was never shown on screen, then its safe to ignore if its never brought up. afaic, she killed him with valyrian steel, because WW's are weak to it.

[sam86]

...... because he is one. that was meant to mean that his father hates him and would disown him as not being a lannister if he could, but he cant.. because he is .

the Targerean king was mad in love with Tirion wife and tried to bed her many times, there is that part too that u ignored
That is why he can't prove if he is his son, or the Targerean king son, there is a good chance he isn't his own son

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm disputing that the Faceless Men are ninjas. They're good killers, but they don't stealth around.

In the time it's taken me to catch up on this thread after work, someone mentioned Jaqen killing people to free Arya/Hot Pie. It seems they forgot that Jaqen was conscripted into the guard, and simply betrayed his fellow guards. He didn't need to sneak up on them. Arya gave him the name she wanted, and he delivered.

Even so, Jaqen is the Master of the House of Black and White. Arya failed her training with the Faceless Men. We saw that when she stole the face. We saw that when she hid Needle and some of her things and didn't give up the ghost of being Arya Stark. Her even coming back and going on Arya Stark's revenge mission is a failure of the very basic tenets of the Faceless Men. No Faceless Man would ever say that she belongs to the Faceless Men. That Jaqen isn't after her now is somewhat hilarious.

Why does that matter? Well, the magic the Faceless Men have seems to be divine in nature - granted by the Faceless God. With Arya so wildly flouting their rules and failing her training, it's been long been a concern about why she even has access to faces, let alone any of the "powers" of the Faceless Men, if they have any magical agility/stealth (the stealth, never having been seen on screen or in book before).

All this adds up to this: Arya deus ex'd out of nowhere to killed the NK. I have no problem with Arya killing the NK (except for the thematic betrayal of killing to NK as some one-dimensional distraction), but he should have been alone.

I still have no idea why the White Walkers weren't in the battle themselves.

It was pretty clutch how he killed that dude with wolfsbane as he literally opens the door about to tell Tywin about Arya

[Jastall]

A trained assassin Stabbed a target in the heart. She got lucky, I guess in that being the only way to kill him, Thin I know, I can grant that. Who he is, now thats fair, but she isnt dumb, you have a horde of shambling zombies (or w/e) then you have the Walkers, then you have a walker, with a crown, standing over your brother about to strike.

Again, the 3ER, NK lore is weak and unsatisfying, I agree. I think they want to save that for the prequel show, frankly and its a tad bullshit.

The dragonglass isn't at the heart, though. It is more towards the upper stomach, and a small target.

Nevertheless, her being lucky I can bite, as I said the realism of the situation isn't my primary complaint, more of a secondary quibble to the fact that Arya has sweet fuck all to do with the Night King and that the scene rendered the entire battle completely pointless as Bran being the bait and Arya being the killer was all they required in the end.

[NihilSustinet]

In the books it's explicitly stated that Tywin believes Aerys raped his wife. It's part of the reason he's so willing to betray him (the other being naming Jaime to the Kingsguard, preventing him from becoming Lord of Casterly Rock). One of Barristan's POV chapters confirms that Aerys at the very least lusted after her. Tywin was Aerys' hand for a significant amount of time, and thus residing in KL. Motive and opportunity are both present.

even if thats true, tywin is the head of the family, and the richest man in the seven kingdoms, if he really had the slightest actual belief that tyrion wasnt his son, he would have disowned him and no one could have said or done anything about it. he didnt. at the end of the day, as much as he hated him, tywin is loyal to his family, and would never do that to a lannister, which he knows he is.

[RobertoCarlos]

if it was never shown on screen, then its safe to ignore if its never brought up. afaic, she killed him with valyrian steel, because WW's are weak to it.

yes they show where the NK was stabbed with the dagger.

How did Arya know the spot is a better question

[Ihavewaffles]

the trebuchets are at the frontline...i mean..my head hurts just thinking about it..

[Grimbold21]

if it was never shown on screen, then its safe to ignore if its never brought up. afaic, she killed him with valyrian steel, because WW's are weak to it.

Yes, the dagger she used was the one that Bran gave to her when she returned to WF, which was the dagger that was used in s1 to try and murder Bran. At the time, it was said it was made of Valyrian steel.

[IIamaKing]

"Bran was just bait he did nothing"

Without Bran the Nk would have just sat behind his army and stream rolled through.

Even WITH Bran thats what he should have done. His presences in the battle did not really lend much to the AotD over taking WF. He could have and should have stayed back. His army would have his prize by daylight.

[crakerjack]

Good God this thread grew so fast, really can't be bothered to read over 60+ pages. But as for my thoughts I thought the actual fight was okay, its about what you can expect from an undead army trying to overwhelm your base. I didn't get why they would send their Dothraki to their deaths like that... rule of cool I guess. But the way the Night King ended was so fucking bad. We had all this build up, an episode where the humans were losing for a whole 55 minutes straight, then it all suddenly ends because Arya shadowsteps her way to the Night King and finishes him with a single blow. It feels so cheap to end such a long recurring enemy.

I did call it that the whole Night King plot would end on the 3rd episode, where they will then focus on Cersei as the final enemy. But I also expected Cersei to charge right into Winterfel after the Night King lost (while viewing the fight from a distance), so that she wouldn't even give the Starks the time to recover.

Also very dissapointed that no real major characters died. Sure we have Jorah Mormont and Theon Greyjoy dead, but I wouldn't call them relevant enough to be tearjerking deaths for such a huge fight. I would've liked to see at least 1 Stark die, and the most obvious one would be Brann as his entire plot was focussed around the Night King. Pretty sad to think that Walder Frey killed so many major characters in like 10 minutes, while the Night King couldn't do any in an hour. Why did the show move away of not having such thick plot armor for all their characters? We used to get surprised all the time because we never knew which character would die at any point.

For just an episode it was alright, but as a continuation of such a longly hyped storyline it was quite dissapointing. The Battle at Blackwater Bay, the Defense of the Wall, Hardhome and the Battle of the Bastards were all way better fights than this.

That really isn't a fair complain to make about main characters not dying in a big battle? How many main characters died the battle of blackwater bay? How many died when the wildlings first attack the wall? How many died in hardhome? How many died in the battle of the bastards? Main characters not dying in a battle isn't anything new.

I'm sorry you thought the NK had a bigger role to play, but it was clearly a way to reduce how big dany/jons army was. They said multiple times throughout last season that dany could go straight to kings landing and take it for herself. Unless she took heavy losses to her army, we'd still be convinced that she could take kings landy easily. I knew the NK was going to die, just wasn't sure who was going to do it until arya had that talk with melisandre. Did you seriously want another hollywood villain that's near impossible to defeat and requires multiple heroes to work together to kill over the course of multiple episodes?