[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Isilrien]

It would be easier to stomach if they didn't reference the prince that was promised previously in the series...

They didn't mention it as much as the book, but enough that episode 3 was a bit incoherent (it didn't really fit with what came beforehand).

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It was hardly mentioned in the show, my friends and work colleagues who haven't read the books are clueless about it.

Prophecies tend to be bullshit anyway, or translated/misunderstood poorly.

I'm really hoping the next book is released not long after the show finishes, and then he focuses only on the last book.

Hope springs eternal. I hope so too, but I'm cynical about it these days.

[Deadite]

Just a reminder, that undead dragon destroyed the wall and later in winterfell easily made a whole in the wall for the undead to enter. I don't know what kinda of wall Jon was using to protect himself from the dragon's breath, but if I were to guess, I would say it's some form of thick brick covered in plot armor.

Eh? By that point its jaw had been mostly torn off and most of its throat ripped out. Now i don't know much about Dragon physiology but that could limit its power to some extent.

[Mavick]

Spelling matters in the books, where this exists, and not in the show, where it does not. A lot of people on this thread are having difficulty separating what is in the book vs what is in the show and claiming the show makes no sense because of X, when X never existed in the show.

I had somewhat of a feeling this might be what I've been dealing on here from certain people, with but it's impossible for me to say that for certain having not read the books. Of course some of it is probably also people just not having paid attention to certain things or forgotten. Either way, it would make sense, and is somewhat annoying.

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Just a reminder, that undead dragon destroyed the wall and later in winterfell easily made a whole in the wall for the undead to enter. I don't know what kinda of wall Jon was using to protect himself from the dragon's breath, but if I were to guess, I would say it's some form of thick brick covered in plot armor.

Meh. Fire vs Ice concerning the wall. Also Viserion knocked the hole in Winterfell prior to having half his face removed by Rhaegal and shitting fire from the side of his head for the rest of the episode. It's not hard for you to let your imagination handle the fact that maybe he couldn't pack quite the punch after that.

[uopayroll]

I had somewhat of a feeling this might be what I've been dealing on here from certain people, with but it's impossible for me to say that for certain having not read the books. Of course some of it is probably also people just not having paid attention to certain things or forgotten. Either way, it would make sense, and is somewhat annoying.

I am actually rewatching it from the start for the past two weeks, at season 5 now. It is pretty cool how much more you notice or pick up knowing what is coming up. There is actually a lot of things said or done early that foreshadow or relate to something in the future. There are too many to be simple flukes.

-When the Hound was taking Arya from spot to spot trying to sell her back, there is a scene where he shows her the "sweet" spot to kill something. This looked to be pretty much where she stabbed the NK. Fluke that it was the right spot, but not surprising she hit there.
-Arya was sparring with Brienne at one point and used the same move. Looked cool at the time, but shows it was not a magic, pulled out of her ass move when used on the NK.
-Arya became no-one , and then became Arya again, kind of reborn, so kind of fulfills that part of the prince that was promised (prophecies are always vague to allow wiggle room to come true). She did this across the ocean, does that satisfy the salt part?? Hound(phobia)/Dondarion(sword/resurected) tought her stuff, she rescued Jaquen from fire which all lead to being born again. (prophecy and vagueness again)
-Prince/Princess, it was mentioned that the work used was gender neutral and people just assume Prince. Many latched onto this to support Danny being the one promised.
-Red witch and her speech to Arya when she bought Gendry
- No one can kill death. A girl must become no one

Arya may not be who many expected, but she did not really come out of nowhere to be the one to end the NK

[MakeMeLaugh]

I had somewhat of a feeling this might be what I've been dealing on here from certain people, with but it's impossible for me to say that for certain having not read the books. Of course some of it is probably also people just not having paid attention to certain things or forgotten. Either way, it would make sense, and is somewhat annoying.

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Meh. Fire vs Ice concerning the wall. Also Viserion knocked the hole in Winterfell prior to having half his face removed by Rhaegal and shitting fire from the side of his head for the rest of the episode. It's not hard for you to let your imagination handle the fact that maybe he couldn't pack quite the punch after that.

Oh yea sure, those holes nerfed his dragon breath by 100%. That's why Jon Snow left his cover, he noticed the dragon was nerfed and he would be immune. Lmao you guys are hilarious.

[Mavick]

Oh yea sure, those holes nerfed his dragon breath by 100%. That's why Jon Snow left his cover, he noticed the dragon was nerfed and he would be immune. Lmao you guys are hilarious.

Maybe we are, but I just don't see the point of working so hard to knock something down that we enjoy. Especially when it takes minimal effort for me to make sense out of it.

[eschatological]

No. There is also an interview with the producers where they mention not including it because Cersei already had enough reasons to hate Tyrion and how they prefer to avoid the prophecies where they can

I never saw that Behind the Episode piece, that's.......interesting. What reason does she have for hating Tyrion? That he killed their mother in childbirth? Any rational adult knows that's not his fault. That he was smarter than her? She probably doesn't even think that. That he's an ugly dwarf and a stain on the family name? I guess that could be it, but that'd be pretty weak.

The whole point of Maggie's prophecy is to plant the seeds of madness in Cersei. The Valonqar prophecy is what makes her truly loathe Tyrion, and immediately think things like he killed Joffrey, with no proof. The whole point of it is that her hatred is irrational and unfounded (until her kids start dying), and drove her mad. And then, when the kids dying drove her even more mad due to their death in line with the prophecy, it makes Tyrion her mortal enemy (though by that point, Tyrion has already escaped after Joffrey's death).

Now, in the show, we're left with the prophecy basically fulfilled. It's an interesting dynamic.



In other things, after a rewatch of the episode last night, I have to wonder if Bran warged into Arya offscreen. He's warging for a longgggggggg ass time, but there's no evidence of the ravens near the Night's King near the end of his warg. Plus, after Arya kills the NK, she looks at Bran and starts approaching him in a somewhat horrified manner. I certainly hope D&D didn't leave the method behind her assassination out just for the cool shock of her jumping out of nowhere, and then only ever discuss it postmortem next episode.

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It was hardly mentioned in the show, my friends and work colleagues who haven't read the books are clueless about it.

Prophecies tend to be bullshit anyway, or translated/misunderstood poorly.

I'm really hoping the next book is released not long after the show finishes, and then he focuses only on the last book.

Another weird topic: prophecies from R'hllor all seem to be bullshit. Neither Stannis nor Jon are TPWWP. It appears that Dany's visions (of the Iron Throne covered in snow, IE of the NK winning), will not come true, and that vision was from a sorcerer, and all sorcery seems to come from Asshai, like R'hllor. But the witches (both in book and show) seem to be pretty accurate. The witch Cersei saw has had her prophecy come completely true in the show, and mostly true in the book, with the expectation that it'll be all true when Jaime/Tyrion kill her. The witch who told Dany she'd never be pregnant again until the sun rises in the west, etc, etc, seems to be true so far.

[uopayroll]

I never saw that Behind the Episode piece, that's.......interesting. What reason does she have for hating Tyrion? That he killed their mother in childbirth? Any rational adult knows that's not his fault. That he was smarter than her? She probably doesn't even think that. That he's an ugly dwarf and a stain on the family name? I guess that could be it, but that'd be pretty weak.

Killed her mother and father, sent her daughter to Dorn, killed her son, got her lover kidnapped and subsequently lose a hand

[Mavick]

I never saw that Behind the Episode piece, that's.......interesting. What reason does she have for hating Tyrion? That he killed their mother in childbirth? Any rational adult knows that's not his fault. That he was smarter than her? She probably doesn't even think that. That he's an ugly dwarf and a stain on the family name? I guess that could be it, but that'd be pretty weak.

The whole point of Maggie's prophecy is to plant the seeds of madness in Cersei. The Valonqar prophecy is what makes her truly loathe Tyrion, and immediately think things like he killed Joffrey, with no proof. The whole point of it is that her hatred is irrational and unfounded (until her kids start dying), and drove her mad. And then, when the kids dying drove her even more mad due to their death in line with the prophecy, it makes Tyrion her mortal enemy (though by that point, Tyrion has already escaped after Joffrey's death).

Now, in the show, we're left with the prophecy basically fulfilled. It's an interesting dynamic.



In other things, after a rewatch of the episode last night, I have to wonder if Bran warged into Arya offscreen. He's warging for a longgggggggg ass time, but there's no evidence of the ravens near the Night's King near the end of his warg. Plus, after Arya kills the NK, she looks at Bran and starts approaching him in a somewhat horrified manner. I certainly hope D&D didn't leave the method behind her assassination out just for the cool shock of her jumping out of nowhere, and then only ever discuss it postmortem next episode.

Cersei addresses Tyrion "killing their mother" at least once early on in the show in an accusatory manner, of that I have a clear memory. Something along the lines of "you forgot, killing our mother, the cruelest joke of all". So there is precedent for what they said in the interview. I've never once heard of this Valonquar prophecy in the show. The witch's only prophecy to Cersei that I recall is that she would be queen and she would lose her 3 children. That has all been fulfilled.

As for Brann warging into Arya, that's pretty thin. When he wargs we immediately see a flock of Raven's take off and head for the Night King. Pretty sure we also get a few scenes with Arya after that and she never once displays the "white eyes" effect that we see when Brann warged into Hodor. It's also been pretty strongly alluded to that Brann can only warg into dull-witted people like Hodor as well, if not stated outright by Jojen Reed (I'd have to rewatch to see if he implicitly states that). Either way, there's been a somewhat set precedent for limitations on that to this point.

[Thekri]

Another weird topic: prophecies from R'hllor all seem to be bullshit. Neither Stannis nor Jon are TPWWP. It appears that Dany's visions (of the Iron Throne covered in snow, IE of the NK winning), will not come true, and that vision was from a sorcerer, and all sorcery seems to come from Asshai, like R'hllor. But the witches (both in book and show) seem to be pretty accurate. The witch Cersei saw has had her prophecy come completely true in the show, and mostly true in the book, with the expectation that it'll be all true when Jaime/Tyrion kill her. The witch who told Dany she'd never be pregnant again until the sun rises in the west, etc, etc, seems to be true so far.

I always read R'hllor as being a real god in universe, but one that doesn't really have the best interests of his subjects in mind particularly, as opposed to just shaping the future. R'hllor's prophecies seem to be a way of motivating characters to move in the right direction, but they aren't necessarily true.

While I realize that this can also be read as just advancing the plot, it actually makes some in universe sense. R'hllor only cares about preserving the existence of life, he doesn't care about individual characters, and has no problem with lying to them. I kind of like how they deal with prophecies, it is a nice subversion of the "Prophecies always come true" trope that affects most stories. In GoT supernatural beings have motives, and those motives shape the prophecies they give.

[eschatological]

Killed her mother and father, sent her daughter to Dorn, killed her son, got her lover kidnapped and subsequently lose a hand

But she hated him before that, no?

[Mavick]

But she hated him before that, no?

Not sure how you hate someone prior to killing the mother on childbirth, but I suppose it's possible :P

[Gorsameth]

Cersei's early hate for Tyrion is established when Oberyn talks to Tyrion in the dungeon, about how Cersei took them to see Tyrion just after he was born and how she tortured him in his crib.

[RobertoCarlos]

Not sure how you hate someone prior to killing the mother on childbirth, but I suppose it's possible :P

Lol. She wanted another sister! And was upset at hearing it might be a boy j/k

Yea its pretty clear the whole mother being killed in child birth is the reason she holds a grudge.

Cersei is loyal to her family despite her flaws she just has unfair expectations for Jamie like when he gets captured and she does the whole sulk thing and wanted more respect from her father and didnt want to be told what to do so lashes out at him on occasion. And tyrion killed her mother so he was off the list from the start. But all things considered she does her best to protect her family she just kinda sucks and has people working against her from being overly protective, like tyrion sending mycella away and tommen killing himself at witnessing her actions and the extremes of ruling.

[Raelyn]

Something I would like to see in the show - Gendry legitimized by Dani/Jon as a true Baratheon so he can inherit Storm's End and be Lord of the Reach (I think that's the title) on the condition that he renounces all claim to the Iron Throne. He can then marry Arya and make many tiny ninja babies.

[Mavick]

Something I would like to see in the show - Gendry legitimized by Dani/Jon as a true Baratheon so he can inherit Storm's End and be Lord of the Reach (I think that's the title) on the condition that he renounces all claim to the Iron Throne. He can then marry Arya and make many tiny ninja babies.

I hope something like that happens. I'm curious how it would work tho. If Dany ends up on the throne I imagine her liking of the Baratheon name, given what Robert did to her family, might not sit well. That being said, she was able to be convinced to let things go with Jaime, so maybe still. If Jon was the one with the say, however, I think it's a foregone conclusion.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

So Arya killing Cersei confirmed...?

Bet she teleports behind her out of nowhere and bam.

Meh. I'd rather Cersei live with the consequences of her actions. Have her flee into exile and wallow over having either killed or driven her family away.

If Cersei does indeed die, I'd prefer her to either die by her own actions (suicide, tripping and falling while fleeing as the Red Keep is taken), or to be executed by Jaime.

[Isilrien]

I hope something like that happens. I'm curious how it would work tho. If Dany ends up on the throne I imagine her liking of the Baratheon name, given what Robert did to her family, might not sit well. That being said, she was able to be convinced to let things go with Jaime, so maybe still. If Jon was the one with the say, however, I think it's a foregone conclusion.

She had a discussion with Jon about not being judged by their fathers, so that might come up again or Dany might remember that if legitimizing Gendry comes up.

[Mavick]

She had a discussion with Jon about not being judged by their fathers, so that might come up again or Dany might remember that if legitimizing Gendry comes up.

Yeah it just seems like it might get a bit more complicated with her. It was, after all, Robert's mission to wipe out her entire family. And right now, the Baratheon name is technically dead. So it almost might seem like she's resurrecting something when she might not even see a need too, given that Gendry has gotten along til now without the name. I dunno, could make for interesting story at any rate.

Edit: At any rate, like I said before, I'd love to see Gendry come out like a legitimized boss after this. Absolutely love his character.

[TirielWoW]

It's funny to me how many people in this thread are so, well, butthurt about Arya killing the Night King, when the vast majority of people seem to have been on their feet cheering when she flew out of nowhere at him.

I personally loved it. Probably my favorite scene in the entire series.