8.2. choice [Horde Player Character goes beastmode]

[Senel]

The choices are pretentious but I'd rather pick any of those than follow Sylvannas' genocidal campaign to eradicate all life. Even if the war ended with the horde at the alliance's mercy, they wouldn't do anything. They'd probably just shake their fists saying "naughty, NAUGHTY horde! Don't do it again" and then back off just like they did in mop

That sounds like good and believable writing to you?

[Mehrunes]

That the set up is there does not mean that it will be followed. There is a set up for making this a solid story as well, they just chose not to do this. I am not expecting this to happen I am just saying it CAN happen and it can work quite well giving everyone a choice that is somewhat more meaningful than what they are doing.

Blizzard hasn't been in the solid story business (especially when it comes to expansions' endings) for circa 15 years now. You're more likely going to get results if you start hoping for omnipotence than you are hoping for Blizzard to abandon the MoP retread they are pushing to teach the Horde their shitty moral lesson and deliver a solid story instead.

[formerShandalay]

They pretend that you can choose the traitors or Sylvanas, but there's only one option. You do the traitor quests no matter what and the second option just adds a little more text.

Still waiting for the quest that pops up with Sylvanas ordering us to do something and it's the traitors that have to "pretend" to go along with it.

Also gg more killing Horde members to free someone who killed horde members...

Well, for the Sunreavers at least it makes some kind of sense that Sylvanas wants them killed. More Dark Rangers for her that are absolutely furious at the Alliance and the Saurfang-Horde.

[Wyrt]

And I insist that the problem is the story, not Anduin. If anything if they wanted to salvage the story, they'd need to keep Anduin so they can antagonize him. Removing him from the plot would not actually solve anything.

On the Stormwind Humans being bland, that's perfectly true. They really have no themes. I am not sure that is as serious of a problem as the fact that the writers just default to using humans when something else could be used. It'd be nice if they did explore themes for humans, e.g. Stormwind was supposed to be very religious and you could built a LOT on that.

Anduin is a problem though. Him being High King is a problem. Him being the wisest leader is a problem. Him being loved and respected by everyone is a problem. Him being stupidly powerful is a problem. He's a Mary Sue, it's very much a problem with his character.

[eurojust]

Warchief means a lot more to orcs than it does the other races.

Yea we just saw it with 8.2

[Super Dickmann]

What really annoys me is that it is not even acknowledged.

Speaking of not being acknowledged, nobody Alliance-side reacts to Saurfang being free, before or after.

And I insist that the problem is the story, not Anduin. If anything if they wanted to salvage the story, they'd need to keep Anduin so they can antagonize him. Removing him from the plot would not actually solve anything.

On the Stormwind Humans being bland, that's perfectly true. They really have no themes. I am not sure that is as serious of a problem as the fact that the writers just default to using humans when something else could be used. It'd be nice if they did explore themes for humans, e.g. Stormwind was supposed to be very religious and you could built a LOT on that.

Were the story be willing to take a turn, as is not the case as it's not the writers' intent, I do agree that an Anduin that people actually react sensibly to would work fine. In that sense, he's marginally salvagable, vis a vis someone like Baine who belongs in the bin, even if Anduin is worse for the plot in his current form.

Stormwind's identity has been watered down heavily. Not that it had much to go with, but both the corrupt noble aspect, the class struggle and the religion were there in Vanilla and had some faint nuance, helped by Stormwind being weaker and far less present back then. But over time all the edges have been removed, reducing them to their current variant as blandness incarnate.

[Alex86el]

This doesnt look right.
There should be a sylvanas loyalist option too.
Unless you're undercover for sylvanas or something like that. Then it would make sense.

As for the joke... well, siding with Baine, Thrall, Saurfang, is siding with the Horde.
Siding with Sylvanas is just that, siding with Sylvanas...So she might spare you...For a while.

[Bangdingow]

No, I just don't suffer egotists who think they "know how to make the game the best" when all they do is offer halfbaked/poorly thought up ideas. Idea guys give legitimate creative conceptors a bad name; there's a difference between the two. Having an idea you think would be cool is fine, but having an ego about it is crossing a line and turning you into an asshole.



What happens when a guildie needs some help with something but their other guildie can't come to their location because they picked different factions? The answer is that you can only make this decision so 'deep' until it's to the point it's going too far, and that doesn't take long to get to. In the end the best you'd be able to really have is an Aldor/Scryer thing, which is to say: pretty shallow.

I don't think what's in the game right now is very good, but there's not much of an alternative to it because the story is ultimately railroaded anyways, which means you can only offer shallow and ultimately pointless decisions. Entering into a logistical nightmare of making a "third faction" (that only one faction has access to and that would elicit deep complaints of WTF WHY MY FACTION BREAK UP BUT ALLIANCE NOT) just to dress up what is ultimately a railroaded story with "third faction specific cities" and "world-based third faction stuff that doesn't extend to guilds and instances" is not a good concept. You are not a critically minded/forward thinking developer, you are a classic 'idea guy' who thinks he knows everything.



Yeah, I'm sorry to break it to you, but only one of us is unable to comprehend greater concepts here; and it's not me.

I'm the asshole?

We’re not talking about what would be the best for a brand new game or even a new concept. We're talking about WoW in it's current form, the depth of story and gameplay can only be so deep. We're restricted by the IP, the engine, the age of the game the community and most importantly we're restricted by money. This is something that could be added and function within all of these constraints. I'm not talking about changing one of the core pillars of content forever, world pvp is at best a side bar activity these days and it wouldn't last forever.

Constraints are important. Taking constraints into consideration is how you identify a critical thinker. Acting like you have blank canvass to do whatever the fuck you want is a pipedream and in no way how the business world works.

The idea of a third faction has been floated around for years. I'm certainly not the first to talk about it and this represents an opportunity to experiment with it.

[Mehrunes]

I just think there is a lot of value in being able to see exactly what is at fault and not focusing on the wrong problem. Anduin is not the problem, the story bending around him is. It's not like Blizzard has implemented some plot retardation element like WoT's ta'veren with Anduin actually bending everyone around him to suit him (which would be a problem with the lore, not the character), it's the narrative that is at fault. I mean when Genn realizes that the problem is Sylvanas and not the Forsaken, it's not about Genn making no sense, it's not about Anduin's influence or about Sylvanas; it's about BTS fucking the Forsaken lore with a baseball ball AND about Golden writing a nonsensical story because that's what she is paid for. The characters themselves were quite OK (heck Sylvanas was actually very solid and easy to empathize with).

If the story is bending around Anduin then Anduin most certainly is the problem. He's the goddamn center of it. Hell, you phrasing it as the story bending around him only plays into the argument that he's a black hole at least three different posters used to describe him in this discussion. Remove him and the problem ceases to exist. Because the story doesn't just spontaneously happen to bend itself around Anduin all by itself. It bends around him because the writers obsess about him and specifically write the story that way.

And Genn changing his views most certainly is about Anduin's influence. He even says so himself. Yes, on larger level it's about Golden writing a nonsensical story and getting paid for it, but in this case the nonsensical story in question is precisely Genn getting influenced by Anduin. Because that's the point of Anduin in the story. That is his role. Which is precisely what makes Anduin the cancer of WoW.

[Combatbutler]

Speaking of not being acknowledged, nobody Alliance-side reacts to Saurfang being free, before or after.

Shaw understands but Jaina......


It is also great you get into the the underhold, spare two goblins are worried hey they will tell once they get out, but slaughter the underpaid interns afterwards without freezing them outright, what the hell was the point in sparing the first two if you barge through the underhold anyway.

[Hellspawn]

This doesnt look right.
There should be a sylvanas loyalist option too.
Unless you're undercover for sylvanas or something like that. Then it would make sense.

you are in fact, like always.

[The Stormbringer]

Actually I believe there's a loyalist version where you're faking being on board with this, under orders to go along with it. So, the option to sound the alarm isn't there because this is a setup from your Warchief you're going along with, if that's where your loyalties lie.

But... why? Why would Sylvanas want you to go through with it? What does she gain out of Baine being rescued instead of executed, and more of loyal Horde being killed or injured in the process?

[Mehrunes]

Yeah, I constantly survive taking baths on blight with all the blightspreader NPCs I kill in game. And Jaina can just freeze the blight gas and cannisters before they ever explode. And if Thrall remembers how to shaman, he can do the same with air elementals.

Sylvanas' voice prevents spellcasting.

[Super Dickmann]

But... why? Why would Sylvanas want you to go through with it? What does she gain out of Baine being rescued instead of executed, and more of loyal Horde being killed or injured in the process?

Sylvanas has brain rot that's been steadily getting worse each patch. See also being livid that Alleria voluntarily cursed accepted the void where she had to be forced to be what she is now and thinking that was monstrous then gushing about the void knife given to her by an old god puppet.

@Combatbulter @Nymrohd

All except Renzik. They consider him a credit to his species. And that goblin who hates his own race and has hooked up with a gnome because the entirety of his kin are greedy, immoral charlatans.

Fun time killing all those grunts doing their jobs to free a guy who brained his fellow man alongside previous raid boss Jaina by the way, Blizz, solid choices.

[Combatbutler]

But... why? Why would Sylvanas want you to go through with it? What does she gain out of Baine being rescued instead of executed, and more of loyal Horde being killed or injured in the process?

Sylvanas has been following a magic 8 ball the entire time, because making decisions as warchief was so tedious.

[Combatbutler]

Alliance is all about slaughtering civilians goblins while pontificating about how much of a waste of space they are. It's one of the few consistent themes of the Alliance, we see goblins, we kill goblins.

But two of them were just spared at the beginning, I mean what was the point XD

Though it perfectly shows the morality blizz tries to preach.

[Super Dickmann]

That might simply be hypocrisy. Which is a perfectly valid character trait. Imo the very basis of Sylvanas' character is based on it anyway; she is all about cursing and then glorifying what happened to her and that is actually perfectly understandable as a coping mechanism. Applying that to others is just natural projection.

True, but one thing Sylvanas has never been is the willing patsy in a greater power's scheme. That is where it reaches full character assassination.

[Mehrunes]

And I insist that the problem is the story, not Anduin. If anything if they wanted to salvage the story, they'd need to keep Anduin so they can antagonize him. Removing him from the plot would not actually solve anything.

Removing Anduin removes the writers' object of obsession (and since he's just that good luck with them ever antagonizing him). Who knows, maybe this drastic change in circumstances would cause them to grow their second collective brain cell. And then the story would be only half as shit as it is now! Even if it doesn't, it'd take a while until they decide on what would be the next character they'd obsess over so we'd enter the period of calm between Sin's strikes. There are only upsides to Anduin disappearing either way.

[Super Dickmann]

We still don't know that she is willing. It's perfectly possible that she considers herself in control. Sylvanas unwittingly serving someone else's schemes is not exactly new, she served Varimathras in that regard after all (though it backfire on him) by being his arrow aimed at Arthas or whatever else Sargeras intended there.

The thing is she wasn't aware that Varimathras was against her and he had seemingly committed the ultimate taboo of his people in killing another of his kind in her name. Ditto with Helya they were equals making a deal that they both profitted for and per Sylvanas' internal monologue was done to secure eternal life for the Forsaken as a whole. She knows full well the void is bad and would kill everyone and that N'zoth will screw her over yet does his bidding anyway. That is unless she's just a mindslave which would be a whole different circus.

[Mehrunes]

What really annoys me is that it is not even acknowledged.

But why would it be acknowledged? Nay, why should it be?

The only way the Horde Loyalist path makes sense is if Sylvanas intends to kill everyone and turn us undead anyway. That way who cares if someone died a few weeks earlier

It makes sense by default because if the Alliance attacks the Horde for completely retarded reasons even during the apocalypse any peace with Alliance is inherently worthless and the faction itself is an unhinged threat that must be dealt with sooner or later. And any Horde character pushing for peace with them anyway should be institutionalized.

Speaking of not being acknowledged, nobody Alliance-side reacts to Saurfang being free, before or after.

Because it was Anduin's choice. Ergo the right one.