Alabama R's tried to make all abortion a felony to force a SCOTUS decision

[Shalcker]

You are forgetting to include the infant death rate of 7.7 deaths per 1,000 live births in Georgia and 8.5 in Alabama.

2017 for Alabama looks to be 7.4 , and overall trend seems to be improvement... either way, that would be something between 50-58 infants dying out of those "extras", and Alabama seems to be holding pretty badly compared to other states in that metric.

[Rasulis]

It's pretty fucking obvious. The GOP, without any female representation, legislates what women can do with their bodies. Voting for the GOP as a woman is therefore voting against your own interests. Pretty fucking simple concept.

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And he's completely ignoring the rights of women to make decisions for themselves.

There is that also. Surprisingly, Comiefornia has a maternal mortality rate of 4.5 deaths per 100,000 live birth and infant mortality rate of 3.0 deaths per 1,000 live births. The lowest in the US by far. If you take out California from the calculation, US maternal mortality rate jumped up by 35%.

[s_bushido]

Curious about when you guys that are completely pro choice think the fetus becomes a baby?

Whether or not it's a "baby" before it's viable depends entirely (or at least primarily) on the feelings of the pregnant woman and if she wants to keep it.

Considering these draconian abortion prohibitions seek to control womens' pregnancies even before it can be called a fetus, the semantics over the word "baby" seem irrelevant.

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There should be an exception for rape/incest.

Is a child conceived in rape not a "living human being" who should not be "murdered" in the womb?

[Flower Milk]

There is that also. Surprisingly, Comiefornia has a maternal mortality rate of 4.5 deaths per 100,000 live birth and infant mortality rate of 3.0 deaths per 1,000 live births. The lowest in the US by far. If you take out California from the calculation, US maternal mortality rate jumped up by 35%.

A huge part of that is that California has a program where they give every expecting mother an at-home kit for any possible birth complications, just in case they can't make it to the hospital in time or something. Also that they actually fund programs which make it easier for poorer women to get access to doctor exams before the birth, so they can know what's going on with the baby and what the birth is going to be like, it's really important to know things like what position the baby is in before the birth because that's where a lot of the life-threatening birth complications can come from.

[Edge-]

Finding out when the fetus becomes a human being, i.e. a baby, is not semantics, is of paramount importance to the discussion, because once you set that boundary, such legislation becomes impossible.

Lucky for you, we've had a long established definition for this. It's generally considered to occur when the fetus is viable outside the womb, which takes place between 24-28 weeks, firmly in the third trimester. This has been the case since Roe v Wade and is both the general legal and medical consensus.

[Edge-]

Lucky for you then, there is no real difference from the 25 weeks fetus inside the womb, and the 25 weeks preterm born baby outside the womb, other than location and breath, if fetus is healthy. So you're still having a human. Location is not what makes one human, unless you truly want to add one specific exception for the sake of it.

You asked for the definition, I gave if. If you don't like it that's a personal problem based on your moral view, not on any medical or scientific evidence.

[Endus]

Just to clarify, I am DEEPLY against this law. I am pro-choice, with some (very minor, very rare) exceptions that I don't feel like bothering to enumerate again, but they include later term abortions that are not needed for medical reasons, i.e. mom's health etc.

Finding out when the fetus becomes a human being, i.e. a baby, is not semantics, is of paramount importance to the discussion, because once you set that boundary, such legislation becomes impossible.

Personhood is already clearly defined under the law.

Anything but the legal definition really doesn't apply in the first place. So this seems like a question you really should've been able to answer for yourself.

And no, this is far too important to be left to the "feelings" of anybody. For now, we depend on women for reproducing our species. Once we will have the artificial womb at accessible prices (and we will, sooner rather than later), we can have this discussion again, but we will still need genetic material from women. It's is indeed messed up that one gender has been straddled with this heavy burden of carrying and caring for a future human for months, and it's not an enviable position, but at the same time, this is how mammals work, pretty much.

So women are brood mares, not people, and their biological capability to bear a fetus overrides their need for basic human rights.

Did you think this was a convincing argument? It's monstrous bullshit that would fit right into, say, A Handmaid's Tale's dystopia.

[Zan15]

The supreme court should refuse to hear any of these cases since there is no new supporting arguments.
They should, if they were truly independent of party affiliation, just keep kicking it back to the lower courts based on the decision on the books.

There is no logical explanation for them to re-hear it is there???

[Zan15]

Oh and lets not forget Alabama also refuses to expand Medicaid to even help these kids and parents.

So when they have the baby the are better off quitting their min wage job just so they qualify for Medicaid.

[Edge-]

- women should have control of their bodies, but should be discouraged to go through abortions and helped to take care of children, abortion, like all surgical interventions, should be the very last step

Agreed on the first bit, but nobody is going out and actively encouraging women to get knocked up just to have abortions or anything. That's a position pro-choice advocates take, that abortion should never be preferable but should be available.

The issue is the GOP, the party against abortion, similarly is against social safety net programs that would help mothers who, were abortions banned, would be forced to raise children they can't provide for.

As for the last bit, not all abortions are surgical.

- later term abortions should be never performed "on demand", but on careful examination by a medical committee, to see if there are reasons for it (i.e. malformed baby, potentially dangerous birth etc.), together with the mother and the family of the potential future baby.

Define "later term"? Because that's already the case with third trimester abortions, which last I recall are largely banned except in instances where the health of the mother is at-risk.

This below, is a human, and the only change is location, in legal definitions, if he was in womb, he'd not be human, which is DUMB, unscientific, and non-medical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preter...ta,_Canada.jpg

That also takes place between 24-37 weeks, which falls firmly within the third trimester and is nowhere near what is being discussed in this thread (which are abortions far earlier in the pregnancy).

This is when the fetus is viable outside the womb, which is why it's considered premature birth when women go into labor this early.

[Flower Milk]

Oh and lets not forget Alabama also refuses to expand Medicaid to even help these kids and parents.

So when they have the baby the are better off quitting their min wage job just so they qualify for Medicaid.

Good thing 4 years ago they also voted to cut Medicaid by $156 million, too, then.

https://yellowhammernews.com/alabama...y-156-million/

Meanwhile, in my great state of California:
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...326-story.html

California signed up an estimated 450,000 people under Medicaid expansion who may not have been eligible for coverage, according to a report by the U.S. Health and Human Services Department’s chief watchdog.

In a Feb. 21 report, the HHS inspector general estimated that California spent $738.2 million on 366,078 expansion beneficiaries who were ineligible. It spent an additional $416.5 million for 79,055 expansion enrollees who were “potentially” ineligible, auditors found.

But Alabama and Republicans definitely care more about mothers and their babies, right???

[Orbitus]

By your definition as a Leftist, it isn't.

By mine as a conservative Christian, it is.

One day we will both know for sure who was right and who was wrong.

So, the whole bullshit religion threat? Yeah, that will sway people to your side.

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You see it's simple, anti lifers changed the argument to women's rights because they don't want to admit they are killing undborn children, it just sounds better. Pro Lifers, men and women, see it as protecting an unborn life and nothing to do with women's rights.

You can make an argument that an unborn child is not a life, that's a fair debate but don't be dishonest in ones like this.

You mean pro-lifers that are for the death penalty, and cutting social safety net programs so that more people die? Those pro-lifers? What a shitty fucking argument. Just say you are pro-birth. That is more accurate.

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Curious about when you guys that are completely pro choice think the fetus becomes a baby?

When it is viable. That is why most abortions are outlawed somewhere after 20-24 weeks, unless the fetus is stillborn, or the life of the mother is in danger. And that is rare after 20-24 weeks. As no doctor or abortion provider usually does it except in those exceptions.

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There should be an exception for rape/incest.

No, there should be no bullshit like this law at all.

[zenkai]

You mean pro-lifers that are for the death penalty, and cutting social safety net programs so that more people die? Those pro-lifers? What a shitty fucking argument. Just say you are pro-birth. That is more accurate.
.

This argument, that is common made is either dishonest or ignorant, if you don't think people hold different values on an innocent life vs a murder than all I can do is pat you on the head and smile.

[Zaydin]

You see it's simple, anti lifers changed the argument to women's rights because they don't want to admit they are killing undborn children, it just sounds better. Pro Lifers, men and women, see it as protecting an unborn life and nothing to do with women's rights.

You can make an argument that an unborn child is not a life, that's a fair debate but don't be dishonest in ones like this.

Oh please, cut the crap. 'Pro-lifers' aren't pro-life. You're pro-Forced Birth. You're pro 'Make women brood mares for the state'. You're 'Pro-Women have no rights and should make babies and stay at home'.

[Endus]

No, there should be no bullshit like this law at all.

I'd just like to take a moment and point out how internally contradictory the "except in cases of rape or incest" is.

Their position is that the fetus is a human life, and deserves a chance. Hence banning abortion. So really, what they're saying with this exception is one of two things;

1> The product of rape or incest isn't a person and we should be able to kill them. I'll note I don't actually think it's this one, but it's the only alternative to;

2> They don't actually believe any of this bullshit about the fetus being a human life and deserving of being protected in the first place, and they've been lying about it this whole time.

And that's basically it. It's one of the two, and I'd lay good money it's almost always #2.

[Mekkle]

The fact that this has passed is just a big shitty stain on women's rights. Absolutely fucking disgusting.

[zenkai]

Oh please, cut the crap. 'Pro-lifers' aren't pro-life. You're pro-Forced Birth. You're pro 'Make women brood mares for the state'. You're 'Pro-Women have no rights and should make babies and stay at home'.

This is an ignorant viewpoint, prolifers view an unborn child as an innocent life, it isn't about controlling women. That's just a dishonest ignorant opinion that you use to bully people into your viewpoint instead of having an intellectual conversation.

[Rasulis]

Good thing 4 years ago they also voted to cut Medicaid by $156 million, too, then.

https://yellowhammernews.com/alabama...y-156-million/

Meanwhile, in my great state of California:
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...326-story.html



But Alabama and Republicans definitely care more about mothers and their babies, right???

People in red states always make jokes about California having the highest state income tax. Yes, sometimes the state used that money foolishly. However, the money also paid for a lot of good things. Approximately 981 counties in the US (almost one third) have more than 1,000 women per health clinic ratio. Not a single one of those is located in California.

[Zaydin]

This is an ignorant viewpoint, prolifers view an unborn child as an innocent life, it isn't about controlling women. That's just a dishonest ignorant opinion that you use to bully people into your viewpoint instead of having an intellectual conversation.

Nah, it's all about controlling women. It's because conservatives are fundamentally trapped in the past where womens only job was to make babies and serve their husband all day. You can keep lying to yourself but most of the country is seeing through the pro-Forced births crowds claptrap.

Otherwise the GOP would support low cost or outright free childcare for single mothers rather than constantly trying to destroy the social safety net that would helps stuggling mothers.

[zenkai]

Nah, it's all about controlling women. It's because conservatives are fundamentally trapped in the past where womens only job was to make babies and serve their husband all day. You can keep lying to yourself but most of the country is seeing through the pro-Forced births crowds claptrap.

Otherwise the GOP would support low cost or outright free childcare for single mothers rather than constantly trying to destroy the social safety net that would helps stuggling mothers.

Yup, women want to control other women because they hate women, you figured it out, you won the argument you totally changed peoples minds.