Thrall

[Greengrim]

Hello boys and girls!

I'm making this thread because I'm seeing a lot of hate towards Thrall, which in my personal opinion, is completely undeserved.

First off, I'd like to talk about his duel with Garrosh. People believe for some reason, that Thrall cheated by using his elemental abilities - this is a misconception. The rules of Mak'Gora are very simple: one weapon and no armor. There is no reference to magic, let alone forbid the use of such. Additionally, many Mak'Gora duels in orcish history have seen use of magic.

Next, Thrall and his attitude towards the Horde. I see people saying that Thrall specifically punished the Horde by positioning Orgrimmar in Durotar (a desert-type land). This is not true! Yes, the orcish people did wrong by invading Azeroth and its habitants, but that was during Gul'dan's corrupted reign and tyranny. This was not the reason Thrall took the Horde to Dutotar. After Gul'dan was dealt with, orcs lived in complete misery, scattered, and constantly hunted and killed on sight. Thrall gave them unity and a place they could call home, in lands where they could live paecefully. Yes, it's not the ideal place geographically, but please remember that orcs are not originally from this planet, so they don't have too many/fancy options.

Thrall's character and general mindset. I see people saying Thrall does not care for anything or anyone. This is probably the biggest joke of all jokes. Thrall was the first orc with whom the elements chose to commune, after Gul'dan's corrution over the horde. That was a clear sign that Thrall is worthy not only to lead his people, but to also re-introduce shamanism to orcs. He made the Horde his family, and cared for it as such. He barely succeeded in establishing peace with the Alliance too. He was even discussing with Varian potential trades the factions could do. With freaking Varian Wrynn - one of the most fierce Alliance leaders known to history. Even he saw Thrall as worthy and honorable ally. And if that's not enough, please remember that Thrall became one of the aspects and sucessfully saved the whole freaking planet, not for himself, but for the Horde, for the Alliance, everybody.

I understand people want to see new faces as leaders of the Horde, but I really do think that the general hate on Thrall in this forum is misplaced and based on fake information. Personally for me Thrall is the most worthy, as well as most suited to re-unite and lead the Horde once more.

[Mehrunes]

Hello boys and girls!

I'm making this thread because I'm seeing a lot of hate towards Thrall, which in my personal opinion, is completely undeserved.

First off, I'd like to talk about his duel with Garrosh. People believe for some reason, that Thrall cheated by using his elemental abilities - this is a misconception. The rules of Mak'Gora are very simple: one weapon and no armor. There is no reference to magic, let alone forbid the use of such. Additionally, many Mak'Gora duels in orcish history have seen use of magic.

The issue with Elemental magic isn't the magic part, it's the Elemental part. Because Shamans don't simply channel some universal force like Mages, they get their power from Elementals, whom they either ask for help or force to help them, depending on the type of Shamanism they practice. And you left out the most important and most consistent rule of Mak'gora. That it's 1 on 1 duel. Getting help from other entities like Elementals shits on that rule.

Next, Thrall and his attitude towards the Horde. I see people saying that Thrall specifically punished the Horde by positioning Orgrimmar in Durotar (a desert-type land). This is not true! Yes, the orcish people did wrong by invading Azeroth and its habitants, but that was during Gul'dan's corrupted reign and tyranny. This was not the reason Thrall took the Horde to Dutotar. After Gul'dan was dealt with, orcs lived in complete misery, scattered, and constantly hunted and killed on sight. Thrall gave them unity and a place they could call home, in lands where they could live paecefully. Yes, it's not the ideal place geographically, but please remember that orcs are not originally from this planet, so they don't have too many/fancy options.

Except Thrall explicitly says that's the reason he settled Orcs in Durotar himself in one of the books (the Shattering, IIRC).

Thrall's character and general mindset. I see people saying Thrall does not care for anything or anyone. This is probably the biggest joke of all jokes. Thrall was the first orc with whom the elements chose to commune, after Gul'dan's corrution over the horde. That was a clear sign that Thrall is worthy not only to lead his people, but to also re-introduce shamanism to orcs. He made the Horde his family, and cared for it as such. He barely succeeded in establishing peace with the Alliance too. He was even discussing with Varian potential trades the factions could do. With freaking Varian Wrynn - one of the most fierce Alliance leaders known to history. Even he saw Thrall as worthy and honorable ally. And if that's not enough, please remember that Thrall became one of the aspects and sucessfully saved the whole freaking planet, not for himself, but for the Horde, for the Alliance, everybody.

Thrall's general mindset was that of Alliance appeasement. He ignored repeated Alliance aggression, including a Dwarven incursion right in Mulgore, the capital zone of his Tauren allies. He turned a blind eye to Alliance, repeatedly excused them and tried to kowtow to them even after Varian declared war on the Horde. Instead of being a leader to his people during that war he only admonished Horde members that weren't willing to bend over to the Alliance. And Varian didn't see Thrall as anything of the sort you imply. He almost instantly broke peace talks over complete bullshit, even despite Thrall's attempts at kowtowing and appeasement.

And even before the outbreak of that war, he was an absent Warchief. He let Shadow Council offshoots infiltrate Orgrimmar and he left multiple Horde races to their own devices. Even his closest Darkspear allies who were right on Orgrimmar's doorstep and desperately needed help in reclaiming their isles (because Vol'jin was so incompetent he couldn't defeat a coconut peddler).

And then, against not only every adviser of his but even Garrosh himself, he made Garrosh the acting Warchief, just because he was looking at him at Grom nostalgia glasses. And he gave him a Horde needing for resources due to his green guilt (vide paragraph 2) and in conflict with the Alliance which Thrall repeatedly ignored. And when Garrosh rightfully told him how full of shit Thrall is and that he left him to pick up the pieces of his disastrous rule, Thrall simply washed his hands and pretended his rule was flawless.

[Specialka]

Since Garrosh never called out Thrall for being a cheater in their mak'gora, we can say that Thrall is not a cheater. Period.

And what about picking up the pieces of his rule? Garrosh made his choices (like Thrall said), aka going full war mode. He did not try to broker a truce or peace with the Alliance. He did not even care for nothing but Orcs. So yeah, Thrall was right on that one.

[Darththeo]

Since Garrosh never called out Thrall for being a cheater in their mak'gora, we can say that Thrall is not a cheater. Period.

And what about picking up the pieces of his rule? Garrosh made his choices (like Thrall said), aka going full war mode. He did not try to broker a truce or peace with the Alliance. He did not even care for nothing but Orcs. So yeah, Thrall was right on that one.

There is actually no rule against magic unless the combatants agree to it.
I think the Movie didn't help here.

[Super Dickmann]

Since Garrosh never called out Thrall for being a cheater in their mak'gora, we can say that Thrall is not a cheater. Period.

And what about picking up the pieces of his rule? Garrosh made his choices (like Thrall said), aka going full war mode. He did not try to broker a truce or peace with the Alliance. He did not even care for nothing but Orcs. So yeah, Thrall was right on that one.

Garrosh isn't under any obligation to broker peace with people who were the ones to declare war on his race in the first place in service of a status quo that was seeing the orcs starve. The orcish leader should at least care about the orcs, Garrosh did, Thrall did only conceptually.

[Mehrunes]

Since Garrosh never called out Thrall for being a cheater in their mak'gora, we can say that Thrall is not a cheater. Period.

He was kinda busy being crushed and electrocuted to death at that point.

And what about picking up the pieces of his rule? Garrosh made his choices (like Thrall said), aka going full war mode. He did not try to broker a truce or peace with the Alliance. He did not even care for nothing but Orcs. So yeah, Thrall was right on that one.

Yes, Garrosh made his choices, like actually trying to solve the issue of Horde's resource shortage that was created by Thrall and his decision to deliberately settle his people in a barren shithole. You know, those pieces of Thrall's rule.

[Specialka]

He was kinda busy being crushed and electrocuted to death at that point.




Yes, Garrosh made his choices, like actually trying to solve the issue of Horde's resource shortage that was created by Thrall and his decision to deliberately settle his people in a barren shithole. You know, those pieces of Thrall's rule.

I was talking about their first mak'gor a(if it can be called like that) before Woltk.

And because he tried to fix that, he went full war mode on the Alliance? Great way to make his ppl prosper. Worked out really well.

[Mehrunes]

I was talking about their first mak'gor a(if it can be called like that) before Woltk.

And because he tried to fix that, he went full war mode on the Alliance? Great way to make his ppl prosper. Worked out really well.

The first Mak'gora was cut short and was rendered moot. And actually trying to get resources beats Thrall doing nothing about it because "Orcs need to atone".

[Naramag]

Well, Gul'dan used magic in WarCraft movie to crush Durotan in Makghora. Everyone saw him as a cheater. Fair is to think same for Thrall.
After Safe Haven watching cinematic, I am sure Thrall knows what he did. He is after all green orc, prone to get to blood fury.
However, I don't blame him because Garrosh had to be put down. Orcs do not see much further than honor. Honor is everything.

First, the movie isn't canon. But even if it is, I think orcs would distinguish between shamanistic powers, which are natural to them and fel power. One could even argue, if Thrall was wrong using his powers, the elementals wouldn't have helped.

[Specialka]

The first Mak'gora was cut short and was rendered moot. And actually trying to get resources beats Thrall doing nothing about it because "Orcs need to atone".

And Garrosh never said anything about that after. And since it was cut short, the fight in Nagrand was the continuation of it, hence using the same rules. Magic was used, no one complained, hence it is allowed. Period.

And going to war to get ressources is great way to destroy your own kingdom and people sooner or later.

[Super Dickmann]

I mean it kind of makes sense to declare war on a country that keeps your people as slaves and parades them in arenas or experiment on them . . . maybe you could try to cut down a bit on the slavery? That would work wonders for trade deals.

I'm not disputing whether Varian had a motive to go to war, he did, and a pretty strong one, but that he was the initiator of the war. Garrosh had no obligation to broker peace as the defending party and he'd be failing the reason he's in charge in the first place if he kept how things were anyway.

[Terongor]

Hello boys and girls!

I'm making this thread because I'm seeing a lot of hate towards Thrall, which in my personal opinion, is completely undeserved.

First off, I'd like to talk about his duel with Garrosh. People believe for some reason, that Thrall cheated by using his elemental abilities - this is a misconception. The rules of Mak'Gora are very simple: one weapon and no armor. There is no reference to magic, let alone forbid the use of such. Additionally, many Mak'Gora duels in orcish history have seen use of magic.

Next, Thrall and his attitude towards the Horde. I see people saying that Thrall specifically punished the Horde by positioning Orgrimmar in Durotar (a desert-type land). This is not true! Yes, the orcish people did wrong by invading Azeroth and its habitants, but that was during Gul'dan's corrupted reign and tyranny. This was not the reason Thrall took the Horde to Dutotar. After Gul'dan was dealt with, orcs lived in complete misery, scattered, and constantly hunted and killed on sight. Thrall gave them unity and a place they could call home, in lands where they could live paecefully. Yes, it's not the ideal place geographically, but please remember that orcs are not originally from this planet, so they don't have too many/fancy options.

Thrall's character and general mindset. I see people saying Thrall does not care for anything or anyone. This is probably the biggest joke of all jokes. Thrall was the first orc with whom the elements chose to commune, after Gul'dan's corrution over the horde. That was a clear sign that Thrall is worthy not only to lead his people, but to also re-introduce shamanism to orcs. He made the Horde his family, and cared for it as such. He barely succeeded in establishing peace with the Alliance too. He was even discussing with Varian potential trades the factions could do. With freaking Varian Wrynn - one of the most fierce Alliance leaders known to history. Even he saw Thrall as worthy and honorable ally. And if that's not enough, please remember that Thrall became one of the aspects and sucessfully saved the whole freaking planet, not for himself, but for the Horde, for the Alliance, everybody.

I understand people want to see new faces as leaders of the Horde, but I really do think that the general hate on Thrall in this forum is misplaced and based on fake information. Personally for me Thrall is the most worthy, as well as most suited to re-unite and lead the Horde once more.

1) thrall had the black plate of doomhammer on him in the duel which legendary level armor while garrosh had pants, shoes and belt. So thrall cheated by wearing an op armor.

2) he said that he chose it for penance.

3) firstly ner'zhul forced elements to commune with him in BtDP and obey him so not true and in tides of darkness book elemental spirits of blackrock mountain commune a little bit zuluhead. Yeah he is honorable but he is flawed and at the same time with his "saviour" personality has being dominating his potrayal since cata.

[Greengrim]

1) thrall had the black plate of doomhammer on him in the duel which legendary level armor while garrosh had pants, shoes and belt. So thrall cheated by wearing an op armor.

2) he said that he chose it for penance.

3) firstly ner'zhul forced elements to commune with him in BtDP and obey him so not true and in tides of darkness book elemental spirits of blackrock mountain commune a little bit zuluhead. Yeah he is honorable but he is flawed and at the same time with his "saviour" personality has being dominating his potrayal since cata.

1) Yet another different version I hear... Look now, Thrall was never short on honor and he would never cheat and break the sacred orcish duel's rules! Him wearing armor in the duel is simply a blooper of the guys who made that video.

2) Durotar was the perfect place for the Horde to be: 1. left alone; 2. atone for the invasion under Gul'dan's rule; 3. regain the trust of the elements. Guess what, they were left alone and later became able to commune with the elements. And let me remind you again - these guys are not from this planet! They don't really have too many options. Thrall made the absolute best choice!

3) These guys both forced the elements. The idea is for the elements to willingly lend their powers - that is true shamanism.

@Mehrunes , please check what I wrote above, they mostly answer your comment as well, apart from Thrall's mindset part, to which I write now: Thrall and Garrosh are 2 sides of a coin. Thrall has always strived towards peace, although he has more reasons than Garrosh to hate the Alliance and humans in particular, while Garrosh has always been too full of bloodthirst, always longing for battles. So what if the Horde was short on supplies and trying to resolve matters peacefully? Thrall's reign at least did not go full on retard warmode. In fact, Thrall built everything that Garrosh tried to destroy with a light hand.

And regarding Varian, shortly after returning from his abduction, Jaina arranged a meeting between him and Thrall in Theramore. Both Thrall and Varian did not like the idea, but they put aside their differences and attended it. They even reached a point where they discussed how the Horde was short on wood (hence the existence of WSG) to which Varian responded that he could trade wood in exchange for copper and exotic hides from the Barrens. Shortly after the meeting there was an invasion of Theramore where alliance representatives of the Twilight Hammer attacked the Horde and Horde representatives attached the Alliance. So Varian thought this attack was orchestrated by the Horde while Garrosh accused the Alliance, and so the idea of peace died there.

Well, Gul'dan used magic in WarCraft movie to crush Durotan in Makghora. Everyone saw him as a cheater. Fair is to think same for Thrall.
After Safe Haven watching cinematic, I am sure Thrall knows what he did. He is after all green orc, prone to get to blood fury.
However, I don't blame him because Garrosh had to be put down. Orcs do not see much further than honor. Honor is everything.

The movie was a complete joke when it comes to what actually happened in the story of Warcraft.

[Super Dickmann]

Yet when a war is initiated over legitimate grievances, you always have the option (of course not the obligation) to broker peace by addressing those grievances (and perhaps putting forth your own share). Regardless, Garrosh was right NOT to broker peace largely because he was WINNING the war. He did lose in Wolfheart (it's amazing really how many excellent moments of Alliance pride exist in the books compared to scant few in the game itself) but he was largely winning in many other fronts. Again I am just saying, peace was very much possible, but was just one of many options and declaring war can at times be the most honorable option.

Alliance victories tend to suffer from poor presentation or post-climax lecturing, Stonetalon and Dazar'alor being my go-to examples. Wolfheart I dislike for once again showing the night elves as mostly being fodder, but I do get your drift.

As regards the possibility of peace, there was, true, Garrosh could've come to Varian with terms, but both from a strategic view, as you mention, but also from a moral one as regards his duty to the orcs and the Horde being the defending party, it would be wrong of him to do so.

@Greengrim

Thrall himself says he did it out of racial penance and we're shown three stories and one expansion centering on the fact that their existence in this situation was untenable. It was not the best choice, it was a deliberately poor choice because he wanted the orcs to pay for their actions in the first and second wars. There's no spinning out of it on this one. Thrall ran the orcs into the ground carrying water for the other races for fuck all in return, whereas Garrosh, even in defeat, saw them expanding their territory, industrializing and had even a minority of orcs (lol twitter) be a credible threat to the entirety of his Kalimdor-side rebellion.

[czarek]

Hello boys and girls!

I'm making this thread because I'm seeing a lot of hate towards Thrall, which in my personal opinion, is completely undeserved.

First off, I'd like to talk about his duel with Garrosh. People believe for some reason, that Thrall cheated by using his elemental abilities - this is a misconception. The rules of Mak'Gora are very simple: one weapon and no armor. There is no reference to magic, let alone forbid the use of such. Additionally, many Mak'Gora duels in orcish history have seen use of magic.

Next, Thrall and his attitude towards the Horde. I see people saying that Thrall specifically punished the Horde by positioning Orgrimmar in Durotar (a desert-type land). This is not true! Yes, the orcish people did wrong by invading Azeroth and its habitants, but that was during Gul'dan's corrupted reign and tyranny. This was not the reason Thrall took the Horde to Dutotar. After Gul'dan was dealt with, orcs lived in complete misery, scattered, and constantly hunted and killed on sight. Thrall gave them unity and a place they could call home, in lands where they could live paecefully. Yes, it's not the ideal place geographically, but please remember that orcs are not originally from this planet, so they don't have too many/fancy options.

Thrall's character and general mindset. I see people saying Thrall does not care for anything or anyone. This is probably the biggest joke of all jokes. Thrall was the first orc with whom the elements chose to commune, after Gul'dan's corrution over the horde. That was a clear sign that Thrall is worthy not only to lead his people, but to also re-introduce shamanism to orcs. He made the Horde his family, and cared for it as such. He barely succeeded in establishing peace with the Alliance too. He was even discussing with Varian potential trades the factions could do. With freaking Varian Wrynn - one of the most fierce Alliance leaders known to history. Even he saw Thrall as worthy and honorable ally. And if that's not enough, please remember that Thrall became one of the aspects and sucessfully saved the whole freaking planet, not for himself, but for the Horde, for the Alliance, everybody.

I understand people want to see new faces as leaders of the Horde, but I really do think that the general hate on Thrall in this forum is misplaced and based on fake information. Personally for me Thrall is the most worthy, as well as most suited to re-unite and lead the Horde once more.

I agree with you. Thrall in his basic mentality want peace for all. Basicly no matter of where. He want just live but as we know to live i peace in Azeroth is quite hard. He is not greedy. He did not demand power or some corrupt power.

[Greengrim]

...Thrall himself says he did it out of racial penance and we're shown three stories and one expansion centering on the fact that their existence in this situation was untenable. It was not the best choice, it was a deliberately poor choice because he wanted the orcs to pay for their actions in the first and second wars. There's no spinning out of it on this one. Thrall ran the orcs into the ground carrying water for the other races for fuck all in return, whereas Garrosh, even in defeat, saw them expanding their territory, industrializing and had even a minority of orcs (lol twitter) be a credible threat to the entirety of his Kalimdor-side rebellion.

As I also said earlier, one of the reasons Thrall chose Durotar was indeed for the orcs to atone for what they did. You are right saying it was to penance, but I don't understand why you imply that penance<=>punishment and that it's some sort of bad thing. Thrall definitely did not run the orcs into the ground, infact he created their great capital. His reign is said to be one of prosperity for the orcs, not only because they finally had a home, but also because they managed to seek and gain the elemental spirits' forgiveness and became able to commune with them once more. Thrall practically arranged them with a relatively decent life on an earh on which they don't belong.

[Super Dickmann]

Here is the thing. In a different medium and with VERY different writers, the Orcs exploring the morality of keeping slaves when their history is so deeply intertwined with slavery (mostly due to Goria and to a lesser extent due to the human camps) would be a very valid angle to take. Thrall, a slave whose very name means slave kept as one of his chief advisors an orcish slaver. This is not unnatural in that a culture that was so accustomed with slavery might vilify the slavers but not the institution itself (there are real world examples after all).

Blizzard are masters of accidentally creating cultures and stories far more interesting than what they were actually going for. The orcs and Thrall are the crown of this, given how much history, culture and depth they have and how much of it is contradictory with some of their professed values but aligned with others, their different leadership and so on.

Be that as it may though and even disliking Thrall, him having a slaver as his advisor is something that's fairly out of character, though the tepid tolerance of the institution by him being a part of his disillusionment would have been interesting if, as said, were it handled by better writers.
@Greengrim

Thrall explicitly ran the orcs into the ground and did so deliberately. They were already reconnecting with the elements and had shamans prior and shamanism does not require self-flagellation. He did not give them a time of plenty and decency, the orcs were dealing with resource shortages and were reliant on imports from Ashenvale and the night elves graciously giving them hunting rights even before the Cataclysm. He meant well, but he was working on a contradictory level, simultaneously elevating their historical figures, exclusively warriors who took what they wanted by force rather than suffer and carry water for others, and make them repent for the deeds of said heroes.

[Terongor]

1) Yet another different version I hear... Look now, Thrall was never short on honor and he would never cheat and break the sacred orcish duel's rules! Him wearing armor in the duel is simply a blooper of the guys who made that video.

2) Durotar was the perfect place for the Horde to be: 1. left alone; 2. atone for the invasion under Gul'dan's rule; 3. regain the trust of the elements. Guess what, they were left alone and later became able to commune with the elements. And let me remind you again - these guys are not from this planet! They don't really have too many options. Thrall made the absolute best choice!

3) These guys both forced the elements. The idea is for the elements to willingly lend their powers - that is true shamanism.

@Mehrunes , please check what I wrote above, they mostly answer your comment as well, apart from Thrall's mindset part, to which I write now: Thrall and Garrosh are 2 sides of a coin. Thrall has always strived towards peace, although he has more reasons than Garrosh to hate the Alliance and humans in particular, while Garrosh has always been too full of bloodthirst, always longing for battles. So what if the Horde was short on supplies and trying to resolve matters peacefully? Thrall's reign at least did not go full on retard warmode. In fact, Thrall built everything that Garrosh tried to destroy with a light hand.

And regarding Varian, shortly after returning from his abduction, Jaina arranged a meeting between him and Thrall in Theramore. Both Thrall and Varian did not like the idea, but they put aside their differences and attended it. They even reached a point where they discussed how the Horde was short on wood (hence the existence of WSG) to which Varian responded that he could trade wood in exchange for copper and exotic hides from the Barrens. Shortly after the meeting there was an invasion of Theramore where alliance representatives of the Twilight Hammer attacked the Horde and Horde representatives attached the Alliance. So Varian thought this attack was orchestrated by the Horde while Garrosh accused the Alliance, and so the idea of peace died there.



The movie was a complete joke when it comes to what actually happened in the story of Warcraft.

1) We have no evidence that it is just a blooper as blizzard has never stated otherwise and that whats ingame so all hard proof indicate he did use.

2) as said it was decision to punish his people of their past "crimes" also they could have gone to mulgor with the taurens or areas of stonetalon mountains inhabited by quilboars and harpys like durotar was berore the orcs. Hell even barrens would have being alot better.

3) zuluhead didn't force the elements he never even used them in battle and the elemental spirits he heard were once serving ragnaros who just gave blackrock spire to the horde.

[The Stormbringer]

The rules of Mak'gora aren't even "one weapon and no armor", as we see both Thrall and Garrosh using armor back before WotLK when they're fighting. The rules of Mak'gora vary with every single match, and are set directly before the match.

[Wewlad]

I absolutely love pre-Cata Thrall. Afterwards, he isn't really Thrall anymore since his original character and motivation was butchered.