How come BfA is worse than Legion?

[Gungnir]

what are those specs, and why do you enjoy none of the others?

I like Demo thanks to the pacing and a pretty complete design, as it doesn't really suffer from the removal of Legion legendaries as it was revamped.
The other spec is Survival Hunter, which I like for having some complexity, a lot of tools and once you can get 30%+ haste will have nice pacing. It's the same thing there, it got revamped for BfA.

if so little of the content is fun in your eyes mate, it might be time to give another game a try, as the minor changes from legion to bfa for most of the specs should not alone be enough to make you want to gouge your eyes out.
alot of the specs had abilities that just... dealt damage... so it really didnt effect the spec at all by losing them.
example-

Destrocution= just damage
demonolgy= just damage
frost dk= just damage
blood dk= ok actuallty did something
unholy dk= ok it was just damage but it did have synergies and did work with your actual normal stuff as it blew up festering rots.
havoc= literally just aoe damage
vengence= ok it actuallty did something
bally druid= just damage
feral druid= just damage, but did give combo points so eh but 3 every 1.2 mins... idk
bear druid= just damage reduction with a weak thorns
resto druid= literally just your abilites to double healing for 8 seconds


i think ya get the point.
losing the artifact did not make or break alot of the classes, people just seem to miss how overpowered some of them were, cause yes they did make us feel overpowered, as there was alot of "this ability is just 40% stronger now" in all of the tree, and most trees, only had 1-2 things MAX that effected their rotation in ANY WAY
i did an analysis with the demonolgy lock since its the one i know the most

I have been trying to find a new game, but lo and behold there's not a single MMO out there that can quite match the gameplay of WoW at its peak.
Nowadays I'm mainly playing Path of Exile and Counter Strike: Global Offensive.

It wasn't just the artifact weapons, legendaries and set bonuses also weigh in and a lot of those were tied into resource generation and management.
It's part of the reason why the switch from Legion to BfA was so jarring because not only did we lose a lot of stats, but we got more GCD's and also lost items that directly impact how much resource we could gain and spend.
I mained a DK back in Legion and we had so many options just in legendaries to speed up our gameplay even more. UH bracers, Seal of Necrofantasia for frost, DK spec ring, Sephuz etc. Couple that with set bonuses which actively decrease cooldowns based on runic power spent and it's a world of difference compared to BfA.

I would trade all the power in the world if it meant getting a spec that actually felt good to play for me.
If I had the choice of having my DK become EXTREMELY overpowered, or have the design revert back to MoP-era then I'd choose the MoP era 12 out of 10 times.

[shoegazing]

"Vanilla classes just had spam 1 button gameplay"

-- actual thing said by an ignorant individual in this thread

Time to get an education: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-kYglKZ1f8

[Sharein]

-Class design
-Sharding
-Pruning


All of these things are hated by the playerbase, the removal of artifact weapons was just the icing on the rotten cake.

[Evaddon]

It is not similar to Legion at all. If anything, it's a massive downgrade.

Its very similar to Legion, people called it Legion 2.0 in beta and at the start, tell me how is it a downgrade if that's your current thoughts? What is different then Legion?

Not counting any class designs you feel have failed in this current iteration, because that is completely subjective

[derpkitteh]

You're delusional, the main problem is it is to similar to Legion with no innovation to WQ or the Emissary system

problems like one expansion being better or worse than the last is due to them trying to reinvent the wheel every expansion.

they NEED to cool it on "innovation", because their ideas of "innovation" are shit.

they need to lose the bullshit attitudes and go backwards a bit. quit removing things in the name of "innovation", spot nerfing classes to balance, buff everyone else up to fix imbalanced classes.

[Daedius]

I think that's the theme of BfA overall.

If you were burnt out from Legion, you were going to stay burnt out in BfA since they really didn't reinvigorate the game in any meaningful way.

Exactly why I stopped playing WoW early into BfA. Didn't want to play a Legion 2.0 .

[Evaddon]

problems like one expansion being better or worse than the last is due to them trying to reinvent the wheel every expansion.

they NEED to cool it on "innovation", because their ideas of "innovation" are shit.

they need to lose the bullshit attitudes and go backwards a bit. quit removing things in the name of "innovation", spot nerfing classes to balance, buff everyone else up to fix imbalanced classes.

Changing classes isn't the innovation I'm referring too in what you quoted, but classes do need to change, if you were playing the same thing for 14 years I don't think you'd find it exactly fun

[Doffen]

"Vanilla classes just had spam 1 button gameplay"

-- actual thing said by an ignorant individual in this thread

Time to get an education: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-kYglKZ1f8

Yeah, look who it was.

BTW, history lesson for you. While Warlocks and Mages were spamming 1 button rotations in vanilla raids.

[shoegazing]

Yeah, look who it was.

You continue to miss the point. Raids weren't the centerpiece in vanilla that they are today.

Enjoy your pruned, dumbed down trash that is modern class design in retail WoW. It's targeted at the least common denominator and those who think that the order you press your 12345 in a raid setting makes up the entirety of class design.

Level 30 characters in vanilla had more buttons to press, and more interesting and cool buttons to press, than a modern max level character.

[Gungnir]

"Vanilla classes just had spam 1 button gameplay"

-- actual thing said by an ignorant individual in this thread

Time to get an education: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-kYglKZ1f8

While I don't agree with the people stating that, I think they were referring to PvE and raiding.
Even though they'd also be wrong in that case, you often used utilities in raids aswell.

In PvP, you really used fucking everything in your arsenal and it's where Classic really shines.
Having a warlock vs warlock duel and reflecting your own Curse of Recklessness for fear immunity still gives me a hardon and it's been 12 years.
Perplexity, Stormx and Goth are all fucking stellar sources for great PvP videos.

[Doffen]

You continue to miss the point. Raids weren't the centerpiece in vanilla that they are today.

Ah, so you didn't mean I was the one who wrote that then. I truly missed the point then.

Enjoy your pruned, dumbed down trash that is modern class design in retail WoW. It's targeted at the least common denominator and those who think that the order you press your 12345 in a raid setting makes up the entirety of class design.

Lots of useless abilities have been removed yes, for good reasons. Not saying BfA is the pinnacle of game design, but Legion for sure was. There is no need for abilities that isn't used. The old school talent tree? The Artifact Weapon design was based on that. Buff this ability, do this to that ability, give another ability. Seeing you are so against the artifact weapon, I guess the old school talent trees was shit? Again, your opinion is valid, such is mine. PvP has always been about more buttons than raiding, correct. You saying mage and warlock was one button classes in Vanilla in raids right? Why is that relevant, but not when the rogue was that in PvE? Spesific rules for what you enjoyed? Let's be real, no spec has ever been one-button specs. Not even the BM hunter in TBC could get everything in one macro. So you saying warlock and mage was one-button spec but not the rogue is such a bad way to say "hey, I am biased af".

Level 30 characters in vanilla had more buttons to press, and more interesting and cool buttons to press, than a modern max level character.

Nice example of the mandela effect.

Classic is soon here. We'll meet then with our 4 relevant button level 30s. We have that at level 30 in BfA too btw. My new project, second priest is now level 20. Has 9 buttons. Just some info there. Don't think you really how.

[FelPlague]

Rogue had been very stable with well over a decade of established history before they did this shit to us. We were the least changed class prior to this fucking garbage

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What's the difference? Why make a distinction?

Mostly what I'm talking about is stuff like poisons, Gouge, bleeds. These still exist but not for my spec. And it feels fucking terrible without them.

and outlaw is fucking fun as fuck compared to combats non existent flare.
rogue, what do you think, an assassin like ninja who slinks through the night, someone who posions enemies from the shadow, and A FUCKING PIRATE YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!

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You continue to miss the point. Raids weren't the centerpiece in vanilla that they are today.

Enjoy your pruned, dumbed down trash that is modern class design in retail WoW. It's targeted at the least common denominator and those who think that the order you press your 12345 in a raid setting makes up the entirety of class design.

Level 30 characters in vanilla had more buttons to press, and more interesting and cool buttons to press, than a modern max level character.

Yes they were, raids were the pinnicle of PVE content.
and yes rogues rotiations in raid were just as simple as warlocks and mages

also its funny you cry "dumed down trash that is modern where you press 12345 in a raid" when that is not at all the truth, and is actuallty the opposite, that is what rogues did in vanilla raiding.

and nah, that "level 30 had more" is right out nonsense.

[shoegazing]

I'm just going to post this so y'all can get a clue about how masterful class design used to be

[FelPlague]

I like Demo thanks to the pacing and a pretty complete design, as it doesn't really suffer from the removal of Legion legendaries as it was revamped.
The other spec is Survival Hunter, which I like for having some complexity, a lot of tools and once you can get 30%+ haste will have nice pacing. It's the same thing there, it got revamped for BfA.



I have been trying to find a new game, but lo and behold there's not a single MMO out there that can quite match the gameplay of WoW at its peak.
Nowadays I'm mainly playing Path of Exile and Counter Strike: Global Offensive.

It wasn't just the artifact weapons, legendaries and set bonuses also weigh in and a lot of those were tied into resource generation and management.
It's part of the reason why the switch from Legion to BfA was so jarring because not only did we lose a lot of stats, but we got more GCD's and also lost items that directly impact how much resource we could gain and spend.
I mained a DK back in Legion and we had so many options just in legendaries to speed up our gameplay even more. UH bracers, Seal of Necrofantasia for frost, DK spec ring, Sephuz etc. Couple that with set bonuses which actively decrease cooldowns based on runic power spent and it's a world of difference compared to BfA.

I would trade all the power in the world if it meant getting a spec that actually felt good to play for me.
If I had the choice of having my DK become EXTREMELY overpowered, or have the design revert back to MoP-era then I'd choose the MoP era 12 out of 10 times.

I would reccomend you try out monster hunter world, while not a normal MMO it does fill that itch for me, and well, classic is coming so something else there, i also recomend trying out swtor, guild wars 2, ESO, and final fantasy, they all have their own things

swtor is sorta pay to win and heavy in microtransactions, but the store is really cool and the classes are interesting, i do miss the glory days of it though, but i still hop in once in awhile for some long voice acted quests where i get to run around a ruthless bounty hunter claiming names and killing dames.... or something idk im evil.

eso its unique combat style is really all i have to say good about it, everything else is meh

final fantasy... eh? worth a try

guild wars 2, again the unique combat style is all i have to say good about it.

oh also runescape, its an interesting game to try out, some love the mindless progression, while i, back in the old days, and recently, could not handle it, i could more back then, got 99 mining, fishing, cooking, and smithing, hunting, and maybe a few more i cant remember, but these days i got to like 80 and then went "how many weeks do i need to get like 3 levels? yeah fuck that"

[TheFirstOnes]

Its very similar to Legion, people called it Legion 2.0 in beta and at the start, tell me how is it a downgrade if that's your current thoughts? What is different then Legion?

Not counting any class designs you feel have failed in this current iteration, because that is completely subjective

Let's see:

No Artifacts, no tier sets, no invasions across the continents, no Mage Tower, no real progressive story line, and Azerite gear sucks.

Shall I continue?

[FelPlague]

What is this "content"? Something to do when I am not slaying horde? It means nothing to me compared to what they have done to the former masterpiece called Subtlety Rogue.

ooooh so your a "literally all i do is pvp"

maybe you should try a pvp focused game, playing a game like wow for ONLY PVP is like saying "i play wow only for its pet battles" its not the main focus, so i dont reccomend it, nor will it ever be, its always a side thing.

[TheFirstOnes]

FelPlague, you do realize that Raids, while being the pinnacle of PVE, weren't the centerpiece of the game, yes? There was reason why you barely saw anyone in Classic with much Raid gear.

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ooooh so your a "literally all i do is pvp"

maybe you should try a pvp focused game, playing a game like wow for ONLY PVP is like saying "i play wow only for its pet battles" its not the main focus, so i dont reccomend it, nor will it ever be, its always a side thing.

You do realize WoW is a majorly PVP focused game, yes? Why else do you think we have factions?

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I'm not even going to get into the systems of PVP. Just explain to me why you feel as though people shouldn't just PVP in WoW? I'm just curious.

[Evaddon]

Let's see:

No Artifacts, no tier sets, no invasions across the continents, no Mage Tower, no real progressive story line, and Azerite gear sucks.

Shall I continue?

We have Incursions/Assaults which took the place of Invasions...Lol, Mage tower "like" system is coming in 8.2 with the legendary Essences just like that mage tower which came in 7.2, Definitely a progressive storyline that has advanced in its plot every patch so far just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not there.

Now if you're talking about the invasions across all contients that was a limited time pre-launch event, just like what we got War of Thorns

and I already stated how people feel about Azerite but everything you else you said is kind of false or generally outdated by current developments in 8.2,

so yes please try and continue?

[TheFirstOnes]

The point of an MMO is so that you could choose your own path. If you wanted to slay the Horde/Alliance and become Grand Marshal/High Warlord while also attaining gear in the process, you could do that. Sure, it took a while, but that was the path you chose, same with everyone else in the PVP community. And it was fun, as well as social and achieving. If you wanted to do professions, you could do that. If you wanted to PVE and strive towards defeating the greatest bosses the game has ever possessed, you could do that, and it took about as long, if not longer than the PVP guys and their mission.

WoW was, and never should be a PVE endgame only, nor PVP endgame only game. It's an MMORPG. It's the World of Warcraft. It's YOUR journey.

[Pakheth]

oh boy the two team theory. That one is a real treat.

One team locks themselves away in the cupboards at blizz HQ eating tacos and drinking mountain drew awaiting their turn.

Class design was forgotten/ignored so game is poop

They never take break, just start on building the groundwork for the next expansion in the cycle. It is a very common work strategy in big game companies like Ubisoft and Square Enix. It is so you can crank out games faster, but quality will differ depending on who is on the team. They also have different priorities.
For example when they made WoD the story team decided to just ignore a lot of the groundwork done in MoP with Garrosh and Vol'jin, this resulted in Garrosh being rather forgotten pretty fast after his trial and Vol'jin as warchief being pretty much ignored.
If I recall correctly Chris Metzen critisized the MoP team for the story direction but we all know how WoD ended so yeah.