[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[buck008]

HBO basically offered them whatever they needed to extend beyond 8 seasons, when they declined they tried to compromise to extend the final season to 10 episodes, they declined again. The ONLY ones who imposed this 13 episode/2 season deadline was dan and Dave, literally everyone else said no, bad idea, George, hbo, and 99% of fans(bootlickers aside) all knew this was going to be a disaster, and it was. Dan and Dave literally did this against the wishes of everyone even with the resources on the table to take this as far as they wanted, they wanted to get to Star Wars, so they rushed it, and it’s despicable that they care so little for how this ended

Sure, except they made that call before there even was a Star Wars to write for and Disney/Lucasfilm has already fired someone for a train wreck of a previous project not living up to expectations. This is a massively stupid argument. The last season was rushed and the finale wasn’t good, but it wasn’t because anyone had one foot out the door. They decided how many episodes they would need to tell the whole story. Typically you leave that decision to your creative people. Or you get the studio demanding three Hobbit movies that no one needed. They made a bad call. Stop trying to put more on it than that.

[Omega10]

Correction: Appalling things TO APPALLING PEOPLE.

Understand that I'm not arguing she's a white innocent dove who's never killed or even harmed a fly in her entire life. She has killed. Plenty of times before. But she has NEVER killed innocent people, and she's specially never killed anyone out of spite or just because. There was always a goal, a purpose, something to gain.



What part of INNOCENT FUCKING PEOPLE is too hard for you to comprehend?

Name me one example of someone innocent that she murdered in cold blood without having any real reason to do so. Because the leadership of Astapor were slavers and horrible people. The slavers of mereen, same. The Witch-Woman poisoned her husband and caused her child to miscarriage.

Again, just because she's killed a lot of people, doesn't mean she'd kill ANYONE just for shits and giggles. If we get down to it, Jon Snow has also killed an awful lot of people, but if the show ended with him just stabbing a random peasant, and then raping his wife, I'd call bullshit, because it goes against what has been established of the character.

One of the main pillars of Dany's characterization is her abhorrence of those who murder children. Child murderers are her personal nemesis. There's no way in hell she'd gleefully murder thousands of children via dragonfire. Specially not when there was no reason to do so as the city surrendered already.

IF they so desperately wanted to make her a mad queen, they should have worked at it, showing her slow descent into madness, across several episodes maybe even several seasons. Have her execute the guy who brought her the charred remains of his daughter for daring to question her word. Have her in a scene where a bunch of lannister soldiers try to escape by holding human shields and she just burns them all, hostages and soldiers alike. Have her step by step moving backwards from her innate dislike of executing INNOCENT people. Because that's the key word here.

Jon Snow has also killed A LOT of people. I think if we do a kill count of how many he cuts down with that sword of his, the number will very easily reach five dozen at the least. But every single one of his victims were either Wildlings, or Bolton men, or lannister soldiers. All of them combatants. He has NEVER been shown just murdering in cold blood innocent unarmed people, except when he executed Janos (Justified, he disobeyed a direct order, an act punishable by death in the Night's Watch), and when he executed the mutineers who stabbed him (Justified. They killed him, and committed treason against the Night's Watch).

By that backwards stupid logic of yours, if in the final episode he had gone on a murdering rampage beheading women and children left and right, it would make sense, "because he's killed a lot of people".

I bolded way too much text here. But, imho, this is 100% spot on. It's why I hated 8.5 so much - and also Jon's pathetic defense of Denarys in 8.6. What she did was HORRIBLE, and also WAY out of character for her. It gave her the highest death count by orders of magnitude, and the huge majority of her victims were basically just random people that happened to be in King's Landing.

The video that was posted a couple of pages ago showed the exact details throughout the show where, if anything, the idea of Denarys going that bat shit crazy was way out of character. You summed it up all very nicely in a couple of paragraphs.

Thank you.

<It's ok, now that I said thank you to you, you won't die like Theon or Sandor because I did not say your name first.>

[Wyrt]

I don't really get the complaints about Dany going crazy, she was crazy from like season 1 when she started burning people alive.

[RobertoCarlos]

I don't really get the complaints about Dany going crazy, she was crazy from like season 1 when she started burning people alive.

Her dragons werent even capable of burning people in season 1.

[Wyrt]

Her dragons werent even capable of burning people in season 1.

Last episode of season 1 she has a woman burned to death. Her burn happy insanity started before her dragons could breathe fire.

[jakeic]

If you're arguing it was sloppy and cheap and forced, then we agree. If you're arguing it's contradicting her character arc and out of character for Daenerys, I'm gonna point out how that's really not the case.

Please note beforehand that I’m not a Daenerys fan, I found her chapters to be rather boring and think Emilia Clarke looks weird.

You are entirely wrong here, everyone who points to pasts acts of violence are wrong in saying that the burning of Kings Landing is in character of Daenerys. First, Daenerys knows the story of her father, she knows that he descended into madness and desired to burn the city to the ground, if she were to actually do that thing wouldn’t she be concerned that she was as awful as Aereys? Second, Daenerys modus operandi is to give power to those who are weak, this is done routinely throughout her story with the Dothraki, with the Unsullied, and with the slaves. It goes beyond just being that she is "nice" or "caring" but because she herself was weak and unable to decide and defend herself (this is the case with her family being deposed and murdered, this is the case with her brother, and this is the case with Khal Drogo) she developed this particular sense of justice. Finally, and most importantly, we were given an insight into her mentality through her brother Viserys, who was written to be her foil. Viserys Targaryen was brutal, angry, and prone to megalomania which GRRM used to highlight how different Daenerys was, how she was compassionate and caring, and specifically to illustrate that she was not a "mad" Targaryen.

[Ihavewaffles]

Currently detoxing with seasons 02-03, it's a different show, especially the dialogue.

Tyrion with hillstribe people cured some of my season 08 depression...

[Zaktar]

Please note beforehand that I’m not a Daenerys fan, I found her chapters to be rather boring and think Emilia Clarke looks weird.

You are entirely wrong here, everyone who points to pasts acts of violence are wrong in saying that the burning of Kings Landing is in character of Daenerys. First, Daenerys knows the story of her father, she knows that he descended into madness and desired to burn the city to the ground, if she were to actually do that thing wouldn’t she be concerned that she was as awful as Aereys? Second, Daenerys modus operandi is to give power to those who are weak, this is done routinely throughout her story with the Dothraki, with the Unsullied, and with the slaves. It goes beyond just being that she is "nice" or "caring" but because she herself was weak and unable to decide and defend herself (this is the case with her family being deposed and murdered, this is the case with her brother, and this is the case with Khal Drogo) she developed this particular sense of justice. Finally, and most importantly, we were given an insight into her mentality through her brother Viserys, who was written to be her foil. Viserys Targaryen was brutal, angry, and prone to megalomania which GRRM used to highlight how different Daenerys was, how she was compassionate and caring, and specifically to illustrate that she was not a "mad" Targaryen.

Can you not see that Daenerys was also a megalomaniac? Believing that she was destined to rule was just one of the many problems with her. As to her sense of justice, she justified that for herself, argued that she was doing what was best for the future. As the destined ruler of the world, she had to take a larger view. We might disagree with her logic on how to best serve the future, but part of the problem with unshakable self-belief is that we all have stupid ideas sometimes.

She'd had this willingness to take extreme measures from early on in her storyline, and always had an advisor to act as brake pad. Her pads wore down, rotor broke, and she didn't stop in with her mechanic before heading to war, so she went too far without stopping.

What GRRM was trying to do with the Viserys/Daenerys contrast remains to be seen. That they contrasted at that point in the story doesn't mean that her personality and character were set in stone. Character arcs are interesting when they go places, when events and experiences change the individual.

[Ihavewaffles]

G.martin says he should probably be done with his book "soon"...

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2...s-new-zealand/

[chungdo188]

excellent idea my good man

[MardestyGSOG]

Sure, except they made that call before there even was a Star Wars to write for and Disney/Lucasfilm has already fired someone for a train wreck of a previous project not living up to expectations. This is a massively stupid argument. The last season was rushed and the finale wasn’t good, but it wasn’t because anyone had one foot out the door. They decided how many episodes they would need to tell the whole story. Typically you leave that decision to your creative people. Or you get the studio demanding three Hobbit movies that no one needed. They made a bad call. Stop trying to put more on it than that.

well whether they had a hard concrete reason to be done, or if they just wanted to be done, they were given resources for way more than what they gave us and they shot it all down and gave us honestly probably the worst ending we could’ve imagined. Why does it matter whether the Star Wars offer was before or after? They decided 13 episodes to wrap everything up, so what is it that you’re defending here?

[Bodakane]

The perfect ruler for the new direction of power of the 6K needs these things:

_ Male (because the people just went through Cersei then were attacked by Dani)
_ Doesn't want the power
_ Not an heir to any of the previous kings
_ Has a good story the people could get behind and relate to
_ Can't sire heirs
_ Willing to be nothing but a figurehead

No character checked all those boxes besides Bran. The only active decisions or actions Bran took since becoming the 3ER, was to stop the Night King. The path that lead him to becoming King were all on actions and decisions of others. That is further proof this wasn't his plan or goal. Again, the council scene shows he's not going to take an active part in ruling at all.

In the end, Sansa is THE most powerful character. She is the only house leader beholden to no power above her AAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNDDDDDDD she has significant sway with Bran and Tyrion.

- - - Updated - - -

Please note beforehand that I’m not a Daenerys fan, I found her chapters to be rather boring and think Emilia Clarke looks weird.

You are entirely wrong here, everyone who points to pasts acts of violence are wrong in saying that the burning of Kings Landing is in character of Daenerys. First, Daenerys knows the story of her father, she knows that he descended into madness and desired to burn the city to the ground, if she were to actually do that thing wouldn’t she be concerned that she was as awful as Aereys? Second, Daenerys modus operandi is to give power to those who are weak, this is done routinely throughout her story with the Dothraki, with the Unsullied, and with the slaves. It goes beyond just being that she is "nice" or "caring" but because she herself was weak and unable to decide and defend herself (this is the case with her family being deposed and murdered, this is the case with her brother, and this is the case with Khal Drogo) she developed this particular sense of justice. Finally, and most importantly, we were given an insight into her mentality through her brother Viserys, who was written to be her foil. Viserys Targaryen was brutal, angry, and prone to megalomania which GRRM used to highlight how different Daenerys was, how she was compassionate and caring, and specifically to illustrate that she was not a "mad" Targaryen.

Are you really arguing that a person can avoid madness by simply not going mad?

[slime]

Cool. So 8 seasons later mother of dragons is basically Thanos.

[Independent voter]

Things that had zero impact on the story and could've been omitted.

[Endus]

Things that had zero impact on the story and could've been omitted.

The Night King still "mattered", in that he distracted Jon and Daenerys and lengthened the show a bit.

But the focus on swirly patterns that they kept coming back to with the White Walkers and the Night King, that's completely abandoned.
https://www.polygon.com/tv/2019/4/14...on-8-episode-1

Way to hint at a deep, complex lore and then just say "nah, he got stabbed and that fixed everything forever."

I still say Arya killing the Night King that easily, and it ending the entire threat that completely, was the stupidest decision made in Season 8.

[Ihavewaffles]

The perfect ruler for the new direction of power of the 6K needs these things:

_ Male (because the people just went through Cersei then were attacked by Dani)
_ Doesn't want the power
_ Not an heir to any of the previous kings
_ Has a good story the people could get behind and relate to
_ Can't sire heirs
_ Willing to be nothing but a figurehead

No character checked all those boxes besides Bran. The only active decisions or actions Bran took since becoming the 3ER, was to stop the Night King. The path that lead him to becoming King were all on actions and decisions of others. That is further proof this wasn't his plan or goal. Again, the council scene shows he's not going to take an active part in ruling at all.

In the end, Sansa is THE most powerful character. She is the only house leader beholden to no power above her AAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNDDDDDDD she has significant sway with Bran and Tyrion.

- - - Updated - - -



Are you really arguing that a person can avoid madness by simply not going mad?

Lord Bronn got the most popolous n richest land, he can also now swallow up the westerlands since they have lost all their forces down to the last soldier.

Tyrion can't have westerlands, evrryone there wants to murder him a million times over.

Sansa should marry Bronn, that would be best, methinks.

[Byuiso]

My main gripes are the choices in Arya killing the NK, Rhaegals death, Jaime post 8.3, Cersei's death, Dany going mad and Bran being the new king. Not because I'm upset about them, but because I think they are the book endings (Besides rhaegal, who was used for shock value and to give 8.4 a major event) and I believe the show runners decided at the last minute to scrap their own ideas and went with the books. This bothers me because when the show decided to start straying away from the books and had characters behave much differently, they changed their trajectory. So at the last minute to snap them into a different place, it just didn't feel right and we could all feel it.

I completely agree.

I believe the bigger plot points are most certainly from GRRM (Arya stopping the White Walkers, Jaime returning to Cersei, Viserion being killed not Rhaegal because he was killed purely for shock value, Cersei's death, Dany and Brans end too).
I believe GRRM told them "Arya is the one who stops the White Walkers" and not specifically the Night King because he hasn't been introduced formally by GRRM as of now. How they got to that point was at their discretion.
Same for all the other major plot points. I believe that GRRM intended for this to happen he just didn't intend for them to get there the way D&D put them there. Granted D&D can't possibly hope to match the level of detail as a book they could've at least attempted to honor the story.
I do believe Arya will be the one to stop the White Walkers, I just don't believe she will magically do it in 1 chapter from not having any relation to them the entire story which is what D&D did.
I believe Jaime will abandon Cersei and return to her but I don't think he will do it as suddenly as he did in the show.
Viserion may not die as in the book the Horn of Winter does exist and the White Walkers will probably use that to bring The Wall down instead of Viserion.
Cersei has no other ending other than death.
Dany was destined to go mad and I am not shocked she did. I am disappointed the decided to make her go so mad so abruptly and suddenly.
Bran will most likely be king but he will definitely not be as useless in the books as he was in the story. Bran and the White Walkers will definitely be explored and actually explained instead of totally forgotten about.

I'm not going to hate on D&D, because they didn't sign up to write this much of the story. When they began this project 15 years ago, I'm sure they expected at least WoW to be released. But when you take artistic liberties from the source material, you are also responsible for where those decisions take you. So for them to take the easy way out, just use GRRM's bullet points and finish it off was IMO an injustice to the fans, all the people involved in the show and to HBO who paid these guys a lot of money to do a job that entails being a writer. Which is why I believe the petition to remove them from the star wars project is actually a decent way to send a message. In the end, they took the easy way out instead of being creative and threw their financial backer under the bus. I think it speaks volumes and they do not deserve the responsibility of a multi-million dollar franchise. People need to know that, because a great injustice was done by these 2.

I said this earlier. If I was Disney I would take a hard long look at how D&D performed during seasons 7 & 8. Sit with D&D and ask them what went so wrong so quickly? After they passed the books there was a quality drop in the story and they completely dropped the ball in the final 2 seasons and ended arguably the most popular and critically acclaimed show of all time with such disappointment, sloppy story, and dropped or forgotten plot lines. I am not saying drop D&D from Star Wars, but after this fiasco determine if D&D can actually handle this endeavor.

[Ihavewaffles]

Some got too much time on their hands..



Lol the end killed me

[Gorsameth]

I said this earlier. If I was Disney I would take a hard long look at how D&D performed during seasons 7 & 8. Sit with D&D and ask them what went so wrong so quickly? After they passed the books there was a quality drop in the story and they completely dropped the ball in the final 2 seasons and ended arguably the most popular and critically acclaimed show of all time with such disappointment, sloppy story, and dropped or forgotten plot lines. I am not saying drop D&D from Star Wars, but after this fiasco determine if D&D can actually handle this endeavor.

I would imagine its safe to say Disney will be paying close attention to what D&D are doing based on the ending of GoT, if they weren't planning on doing that anyway.

[eschatological]

I said this earlier. If I was Disney I would take a hard long look at how D&D performed during seasons 7 & 8. Sit with D&D and ask them what went so wrong so quickly? After they passed the books there was a quality drop in the story and they completely dropped the ball in the final 2 seasons and ended arguably the most popular and critically acclaimed show of all time with such disappointment, sloppy story, and dropped or forgotten plot lines. I am not saying drop D&D from Star Wars, but after this fiasco determine if D&D can actually handle this endeavor.

And then make them watch Wolverine: Origins, and ask them what the fuck whichever one of them wrote it was thinking.