Ion talks Season 3 dates and why you're not getting class overhauls in RoA

[oplawlz]

Is it the only thing you need to re-sub? You don't mind the endless grind that becomes useless after 2 months due to catch up mechanism?

It's been discussed before, but it bears repeating - combat is the core of everything you do in this game. They could add all the amazing content in the world, but without interesting class mechanics it's never going to be fun for people with more than three working brain cells to play. You need a core of fun gameplay loops to build on.

As to your other point, I'm not sure what "creating wars in some other zones" is referring to. If you're talking about pvp I'm going to have to politely remind you that at least in the west no mmo with pvp centric endgame has ever been as successful as the pve ones. There is a subset of players who enjoy that sort of thing, but it's by far the minority.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know if you've raided in Vanilla - but I did, and the only reason I didn't hate it was because I wasn't there for loot, which is the same mindset I've started having in later years on Live as well, because it's just frustrating.

Either way, yeah Azerite armor was RNG heavy early on, but it's far better after we got the extra ring. Yes it's stupid that M+ loot is completely random from the chest (as far as I know), but if you raid in Classic for loot, you're going to get far more frustrated. I can guarantee you that RNG will fucking suck when you kill Nefarian for the 8th week in a row but STILL that fucking ring won't drop, when you're finally next in turn to get it.

RNG isn't the right reason to say Classic has a better loot system - it'll fuck you in the ass just as much as it does now.

This is really apples to oranges though. Yes, loot from raids was more scarce, but that increased its value. It's not like every shlub was running around ironforge with better gear than you, as a raider. In fact just having a few epics meant you were doing pretty damn well in comparison with the rest of the population of the game. (Reminder: only something like 5% of the ENTIRE vanilla wow pop ever even killed a raid boss - we're talking MC here.)

[Nyel]

I wonder if you realise how contradictory this statement is. Surely not even you can imply that BfA isn't what the game is. I'm also sure you've never said this before about other expansions.

Well, I disliked WoD a lot but it never was as bad as BfA so... there's that. And my statement isn't contradictory. BfA is everything WoW shouldn't have become. A boring, pointless, watered down version of itself (or let's say of Legion, because that's what BfA is - a watered down Legion).

[BeepBoo]

What you're saying basically is that there's a reason to do other content in BfA, but there isn't in Classic (because they can't become relevant pieces with luck) which is a fair point (never being done).

Right. I don't want there to be "a reason" to go back and do the same boring unenjoyable content I've done 100 times that is faceroll and never ending while I pray to RNGsus. That's the problem. I want to outdate content. I want the grind to end. I want to raid log, because that's the richest experience (especially considering BFA's content).

Raiding is fun baseline and gear is secondary. World quests, running the weekly +10 are CHORES baseline and not nearly as fun as screwing around in a raid. To that end, the only reason I do them IS because of the gear. That makes me hate them.

One more time:

Raid = #1 reason is fun, #2 reason is loot
WQ = ONLY reason is loot, rest of the experience makes me want to gouge my eyes out

"Then don't DO world quests!"
Yeah, I don't, and because I refuse to pull the casino lever as many times as humanly possible, I'm behind compared to everyone else in my raid while simultaneously being one of two damage people pulling orange parses.

All I think about is "man, I wonder what it would be like IF I had the gear these other people do. Would I have 99ths instead of 96/97s? How much farther ahead would I be? Must be nice"
I want to be able to keep pace with people while only doing content I enjoy doing and not being forced to do content I don't. Vanilla offers that pretty much exclusively, and even with the grinds they have, like I said... there's an end point and I KNOW exactly how much work I have to put in, so I'm content.

[evertonbelmontt]

It was a good interview.

But yeah, I agree not touching the classes more is a mistake.
They need to fix some very VERY HORRENDOUS talents like Drain Soul from Afflic that is NEVER going to be used in it's current incarnation.
I know they want you to cast SB because legion was about the Channeling, but what about those who really dislike it? They could have made it just a little better but still not the BiS talent, instead of lefting it completelly unused.

This is the kind of thing that makes you think they want the classes gutted on porpose and are shooting their own foot. It's so easy to change/fix that talent and it would change a lot the gameplay, make things less boring because, well, shadowbolt.

[rrayy]

There is not a single date in the article, nice clickbait.

Because Blizzard has leanred that if you give a date and then something happens to delay things, players will start crying "Wahhhhh. You promised us it would go live on this date! You lied Blizz!" Also, it isn't clickbait because nothign promised a date would be in the article.

[Nyel]

But yeah, I agree not touching the classes more is a mistake.

I think they'll save all of this for a major (and when I say major I mean it) class rework coming in 9.0. They learned from BfA Alpha/Beta... I hope.

[Black Goat]

Moderation should probably address thread title. It is misleading, and doesn't contain the information it advertises.

More of Ion just covering his ass so when heads roll, he might sleep a little better at night.

[Segus1992]

This is really apples to oranges though. Yes, loot from raids was more scarce, but that increased its value. It's not like every shlub was running around ironforge with better gear than you, as a raider. In fact just having a few epics meant you were doing pretty damn well in comparison with the rest of the population of the game. (Reminder: only something like 5% of the ENTIRE vanilla wow pop ever even killed a raid boss - we're talking MC here.)

You're the one comparing apples to oranges here, the discussion is about how RNG fucks you in the ass in BfA vs Classic, not if loot is valuable.

Like I said:

RNG isn't the right reason to say Classic has a better loot system

Well, I disliked WoD a lot but it never was as bad as BfA so... there's that. And my statement isn't contradictory. BfA is everything WoW shouldn't have become. A boring, pointless, watered down version of itself (or let's say of Legion, because that's what BfA is - a watered down Legion).

Yeah, you're a classic example of someone who trusts their rose tinted glasses far too much. Not much thought going into it, which is why you're impossible to argue with.

Right. I don't want there to be "a reason" to go back and do the same boring unenjoyable content I've done 100 times that is faceroll and never ending while I pray to RNGsus. That's the problem. I want to outdate content. I want the grind to end. I want to raid log, because that's the richest experience (especially considering BFA's content).

Which is totally fair, but it's a fair argument against both BfA AND Classic - don't overestimate Classic, as running the same content you've done 100 times is exactly what Classic's raiding scene is.

Raiding is fun baseline and gear is secondary. World quests, running the weekly +10 are CHORES baseline and not nearly as fun as screwing around in a raid. To that end, the only reason I do them IS because of the gear. That makes me hate them.

Feeling like you have to do WQs for gear despite them giving gear that should be far worse than what you have if you do weekly +10s is a fair argument against titanforging, which has a far too high cap at the moment, no argument against that. Doing a weekly +10 is hardly the worst thing imaginable for the gear it gives though, at least in my opinion. But I quit playing once I get bored, which might be the difference. If I fall behind in gear from my raid teammates, so be it.

One more time:

Raid = #1 reason is fun, #2 reason is loot
WQ = ONLY reason is loot, rest of the experience makes me want to gouge my eyes out

"Then don't DO world quests!"
Yeah, I don't, and because I refuse to pull the casino lever as many times as humanly possible, I'm behind compared to everyone else in my raid while simultaneously being one of two damage people pulling orange parses.

Yep, again, WQs having potential to give upgrades for raiders is exploitative design. Don't tell yourself there won't be a lot of grinding in Classic though, because there definitely is, and you won't find it fun most of the time. Potions, elixirs, flasks, gold - if you want to be competitive you're gonna be grinding a LOT (a LOT more than on BfA, mind you).

[Razzako]

I don't know if you've raided in Vanilla - but I did, and the only reason I didn't hate it was because I wasn't there for loot, which is the same mindset I've started having in later years on Live as well, because it's just frustrating.

Either way, yeah Azerite armor was RNG heavy early on, but it's far better after we got the extra ring. Yes it's stupid that M+ loot is completely random from the chest (as far as I know), but if you raid in Classic for loot, you're going to get far more frustrated. I can guarantee you that RNG will fucking suck when you kill Nefarian for the 8th week in a row but STILL that fucking ring won't drop, when you're finally next in turn to get it.

RNG isn't the right reason to say Classic has a better loot system - it'll fuck you in the ass just as much as it does now.

I've raided since Vanilla as well, and there are far fewer casino-like RNG systems in the game in Classic. The RNG itself is far simpler too, it's basically killing a boss and hope X item drops and win the roll, literally nothing more.

And while getting individual pieces was harder, because obviously, that's the gist of Classic, it's less frustrating than later expansions' RNG which is basically the typical mobile game "carrot on a stick" RNG, you cannot even chase specific items anymore because you're not even sure what you'll get. It can bite you in the ass just as much while also being less frustrating.

[Nyel]

Yeah, you're a classic example of someone who trusts their rose tinted glasses far too much. Not much thought going into it, which is why you're impossible to argue with.

So you're denying that BfA is a watered down carbon copy of Legion's gameplay / design?

[Razzako]

This isn't Legion, but these days people lament the loss of Legiondairies since they gave incentive to run content on top of AP.

What came to my mind while writing my previous reply were the weapon artifacts (the ones with the traits, I already forget their names lol, but it's the items that filled the 3 slots) and Legendaries, but then again, mythic loot drops, titanforged, chests, and whatever else I might be forgetting were a thing too.

Azerite traits are fixed on the items, no RNG.

Yeah, but cache and emissary items have randomly generated traits.

We still know that X piece drops from Y boss, it's just that we can also get lucky and have that piece grow more powerful, and each boss drops more items increasing the chances of getting it.

There's plenty RNG in Classic, it still applies to the important reward structures. On Retail we don't just have gear, but we have potential power growth on gear. We pursue transmog, pets, mounts. Then there are reward structures that are fixed without RNG too such as currency based/reputation based.

There's no plenty RNG in Classic, the only RNG is the literal drop chance an item might have.

Meanwhile, there's BFA and Legion with so many loot sources, and each with their own RNG systems. Personally, I find that annoying as heck.

EDIT: What the heck happened when I posted this reply? Half of it got cut lol.

[TheRevenantHero]

I've raided since Vanilla as well, and there are far fewer casino-like RNG systems in the game in Classic. The RNG itself is far simpler too, it's basically killing a boss and hope X item drops and win the roll, literally nothing more.

And while getting individual pieces was harder, because obviously, that's the gist of Classic, it's less frustrating than later expansions' RNG which is basically the typical mobile game "carrot on a stick" RNG, you cannot even chase specific items anymore because you're not even sure what you'll get. It can bite you in the ass just as much while also being less frustrating.

You very obviously didn't raid in Vanilla if you think the RNG now is somehow worse than Vanilla. What about going into MC as Alliance and seeing a bunch of fucking shaman tier drop? Or Horde and seeing a bunch of paladin gear drop? You're really going to say that's somehow less frustrating than people at least GETTING gear now even though it's not BiS?

[jaber2]

Looking at the calendar seeing when my 6mo sub is finished

[Vynestra]

I would be more annoyed if shadowbringers wasnt coming out in like a month but its still disappointing to hear.

patch prob june 18th, n/h july 2nd to coincide with shadowbringers.

[BeepBoo]

You're really going to say that's somehow less frustrating than people at least GETTING gear now even though it's not BiS?

I am. I'd rather know that, once I finally get my hands on something, it's done for at least that raid tier. Especially when it's the sole source for the upgrade and I can target it very specifically. I enjoy going through waves of traditional gear progression. Gives gear more meaning and a bigger sense of a specific item being special, which I appreciate.

I don't like uncertainty, and I don't like people in my raid getting a better version of the same piece of gear I just got for no reason other than luck. At least with set loot, I know it's just a matter of time till I get exactly what they have.

[gallamann]

This is really apples to oranges though. Yes, loot from raids was more scarce, but that increased its value. It's not like every shlub was running around ironforge with better gear than you, as a raider. In fact just having a few epics meant you were doing pretty damn well in comparison with the rest of the population of the game. (Reminder: only something like 5% of the ENTIRE vanilla wow pop ever even killed a raid boss - we're talking MC here.)

Raided MC right thru to current tier in BFA.

What all you classic nubs are forgetting is not only the RNG of loot (6 months for trinket from Nefarian once it was my turn). You all are also forgetting the HUGE grind to get 40+ people resist gear, probably because you weren't one of the 3-4 guild officers who actually ground out the mats and rep to make that gear, or ran the dungeons 500+ times. Bet most of you never ground out Hydraxian for waters to progress in MC.

Guilds that were super lucky got both tanks outfitted with Thunderfury, others never saw a Thunderfury.

Think alot of people are in for a rude awakening.

[Zensunni]

except those two things don't exist in classic you twit.
that's why people like it, all the rewards in classic are determinate.

no more praying to RNGesus whether or not the axe you get is gonna roll titan or whore-forged and actually be worth your time.

Funny, I raided in vanilla for a year, praying to RNGesus that I'd get one of the top two handers for my enhance shaman out of BWL/ AQ40, and FINALLY after about 8 months of weekly raiding - it dropped!

...And I lost it in a DKP bid to another Shaman who had been in the guild longer.

If you think Vanilla doesn't have RNG and gear praying, you're ignorant.

[BeepBoo]

You all are also forgetting the HUGE grind to get 40+ people resist gear

I'd expect any member of the type of guild I'm going to join to grind their own resist gear mats so it's not left to a hand full of people to do so. Also, 1.12 means you don't really need nearly as much resist. Only tanks need all of it. Rest of the raid is fine with 1-2 pieces + resist aura.

Guilds that were super lucky got both tanks outfitted with Thunderfury, others never saw a Thunderfury.

Oranges were mythical creatures only a few people in the entirety of all the servers would ever get. Like 1 person per normal medium pop server. As far as I'm concerned, they're an outlier to not be considered.

- - - Updated - - -

If you think Vanilla doesn't have RNG and gear praying, you're ignorant.

Different kinds of frustration, and also that person deserved it since they were longer and stockpiled their DKP apparently more than you did. Shame on you for not bidding up their other rolls to cook their DKP

[Usernameforforums]

except those two things don't exist in classic you twit.
that's why people like it, all the rewards in classic are determinate.

no more praying to RNGesus whether or not the axe you get is gonna roll titan or whore-forged and actually be worth your time.

Hahahahaha have fun

[Doffen]

Yeah, the RNG has changed, but it's always been there.
These days you're much more likely to get a drop, it's just that it can also become more potent if you're lucky. If you don't get that luck, you're not exactly shit out of it, since you still have a powerful item equipped. I recognize this as someone not at all in favor of WF/TF.

Back then you had to first be lucky with the item dropping, then you had to compete with a large number of other players to get said item. There were people going the entirety of Classic without filling a slot with their most desired item, which seems pretty damned meaningless to me if applying the reasoning of some.

"It's about the journey, man!", well then that applies to Retail as well. No need to fret then.

Yeah, pretty much this. I can count some powerful items I never got back in the day because of rng. Nowadays it's a lot easier to get those items as you say, but you can hope for a little forge. Not to mention I can get it from so many sources these days. There has to be rng in it! It also got nerfed quite a bit in BfA from Legion, so you truly must be a beliver if you are going around and hope for that titanforge, because these are hard to come by.

I got my first real TF on a newly dinged 120 the other day. 50 item levels up(from 355 to 405). I would have rather have won the second or first prize in the lottery, because that's how scarce they are. It was also the first really high one I've seen someone get so far in BfA, and highest I've seen was 30 ilvl before that. And even those are so rare. Can check the difference if you do a transmog run from Legion and see how many WF/Tfs the raid can get and compare it to BfA raids. The difference is unbeliveable.

- - - Updated - - -

People like those things when classes are fun to play. Blizzard decided to gut glass design in BFA to the point most people hate playing them. Class design is the central issue with BFA, everything else is whatever.

This statement I can get behind, not that I agree of the classes being so bad, some are worse for me, so it's not like it's all dandy. But what you mention is a real game issue, not like the other things like grinding, rng or whatever which are rather minor, but if you can't enjoy the characters you are playing because of actual game limitations like boring classes, that's an issue, and it must suck so bad that people can't play the game they have enjoyed before because of this.

And like you point out, grinding and stuff like that isn't so bad when you can do it on a class that you love to play right. Just to pick me as an example, I haven't really liked PvP since TBC. Now that I enjoy playing my Demon Hunter so much, it's suddenly so fun, and have made me like it on other characters as well.