Pro-lifer argument: "what if your parents decided to abort you?!"

[Doctor Amadeus]

But you can not declare them dead legally even, until the heart stops beating. That is the point. The whole system evolves around the heart beat for humans in deciding if they are dead. Not saying I agree with the definition of human life as the heart beating, as I believe it happens even before then. And people have come back to consciousnesses even after having no heart beat for a while. Same goes for being declared brain dead.

You mean technically.

Legally speaking the law has no teeth, a judge isn't going to be able to determine whether or not someone who is legally dead without the support of the person qualified to determine that.

So as far as a legal standing there isn't any outside of what I said.

[yoma]

Trees don't have brains, yet they are very much alive.

Plants are masses of coordinated, preprogrammed cells that exist and reproduce independently of consciousness, just like a fetus. No one cares, outside of environmental and ecosystem damage, if a plant is aborted. Just like no one should care if a mass of cells with no consciousness is aborted from a conscious human being.

[Endus]

There's no derailing, this is all coming from your claim that miscarriages aren't treated as homicides. The simple matter is that a miscarriage is treated as a homicide when there is evidence that supports that is is a homicide.

In other words, evidence of an assault.

Not the fact that there was a miscarriage.

Maybe you'll be able to figure out where you're going wrong, here?

You insisted that a fetus isn't considered a person under fetal homicide laws. I showed you were wrong, several fetal homicide explicitly refer to the unborn child as a person.

Now you're insisting that fetal homicide laws are needed because a fetus isn't a person. I've shown that you are wrong again because the murder of an unborn baby is covered under California's regular old homicide law.

My position always was, and remains, that a fetus is not considered to be a person, under the law. That it can be treated as a person for some homicide and assault law is irrelevant; those laws could not exist if the fetus were otherwise considered a person in the first place. They'd be superfluous. Their existence contradicts your claim.

Edit: And we seem to be losing the thread. This all started to try and defend the idea that people call abortion "murder" and that the fetus is a human being from conception. Those remain false statements, and nothing about fetal homicide laws (which aren't remotely universal to begin with) changes any of that.

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But you can not declare them dead legally even, until the heart stops beating. That is the point.

I literally linked you straight to the legal terminology which contradicts that.

C'mon.

[Ghostpanther]

You mean technically.

Legally speaking the law has no teeth, a judge isn't going to be able to determine whether or not someone who is legally dead without the support of the person qualified to determine that.

So as far as a legal standing there isn't any outside of what I said.

Well technically and legally.

This is the standards which need to be met for when person is declared legally dead and if the patient is not gone missing....

Most legal determinations of death in the developed world are made by medical professionals who pronounce death when specific criteria are met.[2] Two categories of legal death are death determined by irreversible cessation of heartbeat and breathing (cardiopulmonary death), and death determined by irreversible cessation of functions of the brain (brain death). In the United States, each state has laws for determining these two categories of death that are modeled after the Uniform Determination of Death Act. States that do not recognize "irreversible cessation of all function of the entire brain, including the brainstem" to be death include Arizona, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, North Carolina, and Texas

And some states do not accept brain dead as fitting for a declaration of death. But the heartbeat in most developed countries is one of the categories a doctor must use to declare someone dead. Someone who has been missing for a long time, ( maybe at sea ,etc. ) can be declared dead however. But that is not the norm.

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Plants are masses of coordinated, preprogrammed cells that exist and reproduce independently of consciousness, just like a fetus. No one cares, outside of environmental and ecosystem damage, if a plant is aborted. Just like no one should care if a mass of cells with no consciousness is aborted from a conscious human being.

I understand why you feel that way when you consider it just a mass of cells. Someone in a coma, I guess some would consider them just a mass of cells?

[Doctor Amadeus]

Well technically and legally.

This is the standards which need to be met for when person is declared legally dead and if the patient is not gone missing....

Most legal determinations of death in the developed world are made by medical professionals who pronounce death when specific criteria are met.[2] Two categories of legal death are death determined by irreversible cessation of heartbeat and breathing (cardiopulmonary death), and death determined by irreversible cessation of functions of the brain (brain death). In the United States, each state has laws for determining these two categories of death that are modeled after the Uniform Determination of Death Act. States that do not recognize "irreversible cessation of all function of the entire brain, including the brainstem" to be death include Arizona, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, North Carolina, and Texas

And some states do not accept brain dead as fitting for a declaration of death. But the heartbeat in most developed countries is one of the categories a doctor must use to declare someone dead. Someone who has been missing for a long time, ( maybe at sea ,etc. ) can be declared dead however. But that is not the norm.

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I understand why you feel that way when you consider it just a mass of cells. Someone in a coma, I guess some would consider them just a mass of cells?

Right as I said the doctor a qualified individual makes that determination, not the law or judge. As I also said, brain death is irreversible, heart failure on the other hand one could be given a new heart, or even a pacemaker, and sustained with drugs.

Your heart can stop and you would still be considered to have quality if medical intervention takes place. But if you are brain dead there is no coming back from that whether your heart and other organic functions can be manipulated.

So technically, you are dead, legally is irrelevant, because a medical physician makes that determination. There are no doctors that I know of that would suggest that someone coming back from brain death is a natural occurring phenomenon, since there is no medical way to reverse it.

[Jeezy911]

Kind of laughable coming from a person who cheered for babies being ripped away from their mothers.

Lol what? Please quote exactly what I said.

[s_bushido]

I also don't understand why people have such a hard time agreeing on a 4 (or 8) week limit to when elective abortion should be allowed? There's literally no argument that someone can make that makes waiting more than a max of 8 weeks to decide if you want to abort the growing fetus inside you or not.

People have "a hard time agreeing" to it because it's stupid. Leaving aside the obvious "some won't even realize they're pregnant at that point," you've got it entirely backwards. What possible justification could there be to force women and their families to make such a life (and body) changing decision in such an arbitrarily short time frame?

[Jeezy911]

That's all they've got.

The facts don't support the religious viewpoint they hold, so they lie about the facts and hope nobody calls them out on it.

I'm not religious and the science is pretty clear, a beating heart means alive.

[Draco-Onis]

Lol what? Please quote exactly what I said.

Trump's child separation policy you cheered for.

[smegmage]

What defines life, biologically speaking, is brain activity.

You should probably go crack open that biology textbook you never opened before, because this definitely isn't true.

[Jeezy911]

Life must be hard in a country where the majority support pro-choice.


Thankfully, you got the religious nutjobs to come to the rescue!

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The US only has one side. The right-wing capitalists. The only difference between the parties is that one is backed by religious nutjobs.

This is false, only 18% of the country believe abortion is OK under all circumstances. The majority believe in the 3 exception rule:incest, rape, safety of the mother.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I'm not religious and the science is pretty clear, a beating heart means alive.

No it doesn't and more importantly it doesn't mean human life.

[Jeezy911]

Trump's child separation policy you cheered for.

I never cheered for that, I think I have been pretty clear. I want all the children to live happily with their parents, in their home country.

[Draco-Onis]

I never cheered for that, I think I have been pretty clear. I want all the children to live happily with their parents, in their home country.

lol you defended it.

[Jeezy911]

No it doesn't and more importantly it doesn't mean human life.

Which part is not human, I'm confused? Isn't ever single cell of an embryo that of a human?

[Doctor Amadeus]

This is false, only 18% of the country believe abortion is OK under all circumstances. The majority believe in the 3 exception rule:incest, rape, safety of the mother.

Nope also wrong.

The poll found that 58% of American adults said abortion should be legal in most or all cases, up from 50% who said that in a similar poll that ran in July 2018.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1SW0CD

[Jeezy911]

lol you defended it.

Quote please. You are just making shit up.

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Nope also wrong.

The poll found that 58% of American adults said abortion should be legal in most or all cases, up from 50% who said that in a similar poll that ran in July 2018.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1SW0CD

"In Most ORRRRR all cases" lol read your own source. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

[Doctor Amadeus]

Which part is not human, I'm confused? Isn't ever single cell of an embryo that of a human?

None of it is qualified as viable human life, and that is an explicit condition that determines whether a pregnancy can be ended based on the time of gestation.

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Quote please. You are just making shit up.

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"In Most ORRRRR all cases" lol read your own source. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Yes Most or ALL cases, I am glad you pointed that out, because unless "MOST" or "ALL" Cases confused you, over all the majority of Americans support the woman's right to choose.

[Jeezy911]

None of it is qualified as viable human life, and that is an explicit condition that determines whether a pregnancy can be ended based on the time of gestation.

"viable human life" well now that you add a significant restriction. That's a little different than "not a human."

[Endus]

"viable human life" well now that you add a significant restriction. That's a little different than "not a human."

You're deliberately blurring the line between "composed of human tissue" and "actually a human being", because it's convenient for your argument to pretend that a fetus being made of human tissue makes it "a human being", even though that standard would also mean that a blood sample is "a human being", and thus is ridiculous.