How come BfA is worse than Legion?

[sam86]

Translation: I played a healing class that was OP as fvck and when they tried to balance it a bit, I became unhappy.
And the nerfs weren't even that bad

what op ? druids really did instant hots and aoe heals during wrath, of course they weren't solo healing the raid, u still need a priest or paladin to heal MT/OT, druids were sh8t for that role
now druids need to cast even if they just focus on aoe, their aoe is very weak and their MT heal is still sh8t, what blizz did was make each healer priest, ie : they have ok aoe heal, they have ok single target heal, the difference between paladin and druid in single target heal in Legion was small u can neglect, making - beside paladin sacrifice heal - every healer copy-paste with different visual in general, in wrath priest had very strong cds with bubbles and trick of trade healing, paladin is ultimate duel target healing, shaman chain heal to save raids from low hp and druid hot them all time to keep the raid alive, each healer was unique, now they aren't, playing a shaman to priest is difference between u want to see them getting water flushed or light flushed, even cds are same

So no he isn't high, but if u understood that he means he solo heal LK 25 hc as druid or even 2 druid healers then u are the one who is high, u needed mixed healers, be it druid/priest or shaman/paladin, but u must have someone who is good at aoe and another good at single target or else forget hc run, or even normal run if u aren't overgeared for it

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Anything is better then bfa even wod

u mean class design or general ? because nothing beat selfie patch in sh8tness

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No, that would be pushing it too far. If you weren't raiding, WOD was the epitome of crap.

even with raids, WoD pushed a raid tested in beta way too late (blackforge) and gave us hellfire citadel that had weird mechanics (not hard, just weird) for its entire run, and forget the horribly disappointing highmaul that was cut from rest of game (anyone remember cho'gall? he was supposed to do something)

[Tomana]

what op ? druids really did instant hots and aoe heals during wrath, of course they weren't solo healing the raid, u still need a priest or paladin to heal MT/OT, druids were sh8t for that role

I was referring more to BC. And druids had combat rezzes, instant heals, travel form and cyclone (for PVP). Granted, they were overtaken by shamans in Shamanwell plateau, but still.

now druids need to cast even if they just focus on aoe, their aoe is very weak and their MT heal is still sh8t

Oh my! Healers have to cast? What is this sorcery.
Not to mention that druid is the strongest class for M+.

So no he isn't high, but if u understood that he means he solo heal LK 25 hc as druid or even 2 druid healers then u are the one who is high, u needed mixed healers, be it druid/priest or shaman/paladin, but u must have someone who is good at aoe and another good at single target or else forget hc run, or even normal run if u aren't overgeared for it

Ironically, we didn't even use resto droods for LK25HC (it was 2 paladins, 2 priests to spam PW:S and 2 shamans). But until that point, druids were still doing quite OK.

[Mardux]

Didn't say they were Bad, just that I had the most fun playing one in MOP, don't like having to apply Atonement, and loved the pure DPS aspect to heal of them, were they OP... Oh, hell yeah, but they were a blast to play.

You didnt say they were bad, just that they suck now. For reference, you said "Disc priests were also the best in MOP, and suck now."

Care to backpedal some more? Like.. If you're going to claim you didn't say something you *clearly* meant, at least do the normal thing and edit your original post so it almost looks like you didn't say it.

[schwank05]

You didnt say they were bad, just that they suck now. For reference, you said "Disc priests were also the best in MOP, and suck now."

Care to backpedal some more? Like.. If you're going to claim you didn't say something you *clearly* meant, at least do the normal thing and edit your original post so it almost looks like you didn't say it.

They are "good", but suck to play and are not nearly as fun. People seem to like the new Disc, I hate it hence the "Suck now" comment. I still prefer it to Holy because who want's to play a healer with a spell literally called Heal.

[kaminaris]

The lack of artifact weapons (and all their appearances glory) and the worthwhile carrot to chase of legendaries. WQs were always boring, it was the thrill of maybe getting a legendary (and later mounts from paragon caches) made them at least enjoyable.

Not really. If you didn't get your bis legendaries you were basically forced to do garbage content for like a year. Because without bis, you just couldn't compete with others. AKA being benched. Some people went as far as level another same class toon just to try luck again.

It wasn't enjoyable at all. I didn't want to make emissaries because that meant boooooooring world quests over and over again. Or farming MoS M+ over and over again.
Legendaries single handedly destroyed whole expansion. Artifact Power also did force you to farm garbage because power gained from it was real.

Now thankfully neck isn't even close to that power. So I don't feel forced to do content I don't like.

Both expansions lacked true content.

[dewd]

every aspect of the game got worse:
classes.
gameplay altering legendaries artifact abilities/passives gone.
not only no new abilities but some got taken some away.
no legendaries that makes people actually want to do old content/worldquests. i did emissaries even though i needed nothing the emissaries actually gave but that chance of a legendary


i cant compare the lore/story because i havent read a quest text since bc and could not care less why some boss has to die as long as he drops loot


the only literal good thing bfa brought was not having to use 30 tokens per day to gain artifact/azerite power.

[TyrianFC]

The first few weeks/month of Legion was of the best times in WoW's history, and the community sentiment was overwhelmingly positive with people loving the expansion. Legion either took away may of the best systems that contributed to that initial feeling (Class halls, artifacts, legendaries etc), or failed to evolve them in a compelling way after 2 years of having them in Legion (world quests etc).

However, saying this absolutely triggers many people who refuse to ever accept Blizzard is ever doing (or has done) anything good in or with the game. And some people hate it when other people say positive or complimentary things about the game.

[Kokolums]

The new sets in 8.2 look good, so the art got better.

[sam86]

I was referring more to BC. And druids had combat rezzes, instant heals, travel form and cyclone (for PVP). Granted, they were overtaken by shamans in Shamanwell plateau, but still.

their only instant big heal was on 3 min cd, beside that they can't MT heal until MoP (which was the start of death of healers different style), so what u talking about ?
Also shamans dominated sunwell due to BL, not for their heal, BL was stupidly OP and the LW was weaker version that could easily solved that problem

Oh my! Healers have to cast? What is this sorcery.
Not to mention that druid is the strongest class for M+.

i don't know current meta, if not obvious i hate healing even in Legion
also the 'sorcery' used to be each healer has different style, if u want a casting healer u have 5 other options, play any
this is like the paladin dps change, yes ret now deals far more dmg but the old seal/auto-attack style is dead and literally no other class has that option, if u wanted a high dps paladin dk is an option (but back then when ret was changed, there was no DK so guess no option for hybrid melee dps), i did enjoy the old dps paladin dps, was very relaxing, yeah boring but i want to relax sometimes

Ironically, we didn't even use resto droods for LK25HC (it was 2 paladins, 2 priests to spam PW:S and 2 shamans). But until that point, druids were still doing quite OK.

i did say u needed a combination of healers, one single healer can't do that, i didn't say u must have druid, just u can't have a single class/spec like all ur healers be holy priests and expect to pass anything without outgearing it (which is impossible for LK 25hc, he is last boss after all)
I do remember respecing holy for the massive heal buff for green dragon for example

[Tomana]

their only instant big heal was on 3 min cd, beside that they can't MT heal until MoP (which was the start of death of healers different style), so what u talking about ?

I was referring to the fact that just by placing a lifebloom stack on the tank, druids could *contribute* to MT healing.

[QUOTE=sam86;51250675]
Also shamans dominated sunwell due to BL, not for their heal, BL was stupidly OP and the LW was weaker version that could easily solved that problem
This is simply not true. The ultimate shamans were bringing was the Chain Heal, allowing you to heal tightly stacked groups with little effort. BL could be brought by non-resto shamans. You could bring 2x enhance shamans for 2 groups, for instance.

also the 'sorcery' used to be each healer has different style, if u want a casting healer u have 5 other options, play any

Yes, except that the druid style was way more convenient than the others. Having only instants is so much above other healers it is not even funny. Especially for PVP, where you can throw travel form into it.

[kaminaris]

Yes, pity the poor tryhards who can't help pursuing every little edge they can. Let's make it easier on them and remove the rewards they were "forced" to do content for and .... you get BfA. Where nothing is worth doing so people just stop playing.

Granted the legendary system was a little rough at the start of Legion, but even then at least it kept people at all levels, from the most tryhard of tryhards to the most casual of casuals, plugging away at the content and for most of them having fun doing it.

I have no sympathy for the people that can't control themselves because every time Blizzard removes something to appease them the people who are hurt the worst are the ones that enjoyed that content. And I think those people tend to be the majority as the lack of players now would attest.



Exactly. These things are boring in and of themselves and are still boring. It was the potential reward of legendaries that made them worth doing for most players. Now they're not worth doing at all and people quit playing. That tryhards cried about having to do something should not have moved Blizzard. Every time they let those tears change their policy it's a disaster for the majority.

You didn't seem to understand the power of legendary items do you? It was not the "edge". It was big damn difference between a set of bis legends and set of random ones. It wasn't just a matter of "edge" it was a matter of being picked to core squad or not.

[sam86]

I was referring to the fact that just by placing a lifebloom stack on the tank, druids could *contribute* to MT healing.

that isn't MT healing, that is hot to raid in general, and that lifebloom tick is meaningless in compare to paladin holy light focus (back in wrath)

This is simply not true. The ultimate shamans were bringing was the Chain Heal, allowing you to heal tightly stacked groups with little effort. BL could be brought by non-resto shamans. You could bring 2x enhance shamans for 2 groups, for instance.

how many raid groups used non pure dps in dps roles during TBC ? even paladin tank outside of 5 men didn't exist
and yes world 1st Brutallus kill had 1 enhanc 1 ele and 3 resto shamans, and btw chain heal - like all other abilities back then - was party only, not to mention how many fights in first place are tight group friendly in first place? in wrath abilities start to change from party to raid members

Yes, except that the druid style was way more convenient than the others. Having only instants is so much above other healers it is not even funny. Especially for PVP, where you can throw travel form into it.

again no it wasn't, druid can't do big heals for tanks in pve and hot around, his single target burst heal (the normal for all other healers) was sh8t, as for pvp u probably talk about 2v2 because 3v3 was dominated for long time by rogue/mage/priest, and in 2v2 lot of builts were op not just druid for hot and run

[Lurker1]

No dude, seriously stop. They were not even close to good. BfA dungs are light years ahead.

I agree the only thing i dont like about them is they put to much trash mobs in them.

[Tomana]

how many raid groups used non pure dps in dps roles during TBC ?

Windfury totem called, he's very sad because you forgot about him.

even paladin tank outside of 5 men didn't exist

For SWP, pally tank was awesome to have on M'uru. Also, except for a couple of fights (Illidan says hi), you could tank with a paladin.

and yes world 1st Brutallus kill had 1 enhanc 1 ele and 3 resto shamans, and btw chain heal - like all other abilities back then - was party only

No, chain heal tooltip said "If cast on a party member, the heal will only jump to other party members". But, amazingly enough, you could cast it on other people as well.

not to mention how many fights in first place are tight group friendly in first place?

Brutallus for meteor slash, Felmyst (people bunched around their priests for mass dispels), Eredar twins (all the raid bunched in one place), M'uru for the teams doing adds. That's at least 4/6 fights for SWP.

as for pvp u probably talk about 2v2 because 3v3 was dominated for long time by rogue/mage/priest, and in 2v2 lot of builts were op not just druid for hot and run

Yeah, I'm talking about 2v2. Because if a class can get to pretty high rating just by throwing lifebloom, travel form and cyclone on their bars, it's totally balanced.

[Caerule]

BfA is worse because only a third of it is out.

Also because Artifacts were pretty great, thematically and the Burning Legion was a theme that appealed to people more.

[Lenis]

actuallty this is not correct.
the artifacts when you go back, actuallty had very few talents that did anything interesting, most of them were just passive increases to a minor thing.

Example

Going from the starting one, then a full clockwise around back to the middle one, bottom left gold, then the right side ,bold is gold

Activie artifact ability
5% damage
8% buff to demonic empowerment
35% crit chance of imps
40% healing of soul link
every 100 imp firebolts cast makes your next shadowbolt deal double damage not very impressive, literally just "once in awhile your shadowbolt does double damage" which shadowbolt was our lowest dps contribution
shadow bolt crit chance 20%
imps firebolts do 32% more
WHen your imps die or expire, your other demons gain 1% damage, stacking up to 10 times agian not very impressive, literally just 10% damage on your felguard, and the odd 1-3% on your summoned imps/dreadstalker
doom has a chance to deal double damage
hand of guldan 20% more damage
demonwrath does 40% more
cooldown of unending resolve reduced by 40 seconds
Shadowbolt and demonwrath have a chance to do an aoe ability over 6 seconds at the target location cool, but its literally just "chance to deal some aoe damage"
soul link reduces more damage when below 35% hp
dreadstalkers crit by 20%
doom damage by 40%
5% damage
10% damage and stamina
20% felguard damage
dreadbite increases damage taken by wild imps firebolt by 10%
demonic empowerment has a 50% chance to deal damage for every demon you have this one actuallty changed up the meta, and gave us a meme spec, where we just spammed demonic empowerment
Demonic empowerment>shadowbolt>demonic empowerment>shadowbolt---- over and over.
your abilities have a chance to give you 18,700 int for 10 seconds (at 50 ranks)


so really only the demonic empowerment 50% chance, the main ability, and maybe the "unending resolve reduced by 40 seconds" are the only ones that change your playstyle, compared to the azerite traits we have MANY different play styles.


this may be a demo only thing, idk other specs as much, but i hate when people say azerite gear does not change your playstyle like artifacts did, when this does FAR more

Most people think about artifact weapons and remember it as bunch of cool shit when in reality it wasnt that big. It had no options, you had same shit as everyone else, there wasnt much innovation and most of the specs were in unplayable state without some of those passives. However, they remember it because it was part of end game progression, it was something they had to achieve and achieving it felt good. In BFA they made minor changes to make all classes playable without artifact weapon but there is no system like that in BFA. Character doesnt get any new powers. It feels unrewarding to progress in a game.

[FelPlague]

Most people think about artifact weapons and remember it as bunch of cool shit when in reality it wasnt that big. It had no options, you had same shit as everyone else, there wasnt much innovation and most of the specs were in unplayable state without some of those passives. However, they remember it because it was part of end game progression, it was something they had to achieve and achieving it felt good. In BFA they made minor changes to make all classes playable without artifact weapon but there is no system like that in BFA. Character doesnt get any new powers. It feels unrewarding to progress in a game.

except it does, azerite gear allows you many choices, different traits and power of traits, you can get literally just 2 traits if you want and have them super poweed, or you can get 1 of almost every trait.

[Lenis]

except it does, azerite gear allows you many choices, different traits and power of traits, you can get literally just 2 traits if you want and have them super poweed, or you can get 1 of almost every trait.

Azerite Traits give you bigger numbers in damage meters, yet they add nothing to gameplay (with very few exceptions). While there are choices, most of them are not valid, e.g. choosing between two traits where one of them is pretty much uselees or choosing between traits that does some damage and one of them is better in every single situation. Everyone had the strongest and most important traits pretty much right away and losing/reearning smaller ones felt REALLY bad. People would feel significantly better about BFA if there was no azerite neck and you just got traits of your choice right away and you could choose between 4-8 different traits instead of 2-4.

[Arainie]

Azerite Traits give you bigger numbers in damage meters, yet they add nothing to gameplay (with very few exceptions).

Would you mind explaining to a dinosaur in the sense of MMO design like me, why "gameplay" is so important to people nowdays?
I mean, PvE gameplay for the first half of WoW's life was like watching paint dry compared to what we have nowdays (yes, I played it and I prefer that type of "gameplay" for various reasons). Traditionally, MMOs have never been about "gameplay" in the way you guys speak about it, but instead all about character growth, exploration and achieving goals together with other people. Still, here we are with the chief complaint on MMOC being "but muh gameplay"/"but muh rotation" etc. What happened to people? Did we get such an enormous change in playerbase, or did people just change in general? Did MoP->Legion rotation design spoil everyone and now you miss the faster paced "gameplay"?

Enlighten me, please. You can see I'm not really concerned with how my character "feels" as long as the combat pacing is kept somewhere reasonable in the middle between turn based and whack-a-mole/button mashing (Legion M+, I don't miss you), so I'd honestly like to understand why the core focus of an MMO crowd is DPS rotations. I'm not saying there aren't story/community based complaints either, but the thing that pops up absolutely everywhere is related to character "gameplay" nowdays.

[GMZohar1]

Artifact Weapons were okay, some people didn't like the idea of lack of choice about them (including myself). With the Weapons a Shadow Priest had the same exact abilities/traits as all the other Shadow Priests, Arcane Mage was the same as every other Arcane Mage, was like this for every spec. Some people wanted choice, so Blizzard brought out "choice" in the dumbest possible way... Azerite Armor..