Blizzard use to write lore everybody liked...what happened?

[KrakHed]

Personaly, I blame the young generation. No seriously, nothing positive has been said about anything since they were able to hit on a keyboard. Star Trek is shit, Star Wars is shit, Warcraft is shit, Game of Thrones is shit, everything is shit. And everyone seems convinced that because they like something that they have a right to have what they want. If a story does not go the way they want, if their favorite character is shown in a different light, if their favorite race receives the hard end of the stick, the story is shit. Maybe they should remember to simply be fans and stop being idolaters and cultists.

Lots of positive things are said about everything. Do you know why people call all of those things shit? Ot's not just about things going in a direction they don't like, it's about how they have lost the things that people in general liked about those things.

Ask a Warcraft 3 fan what still exists from that game, if anything he liked still exists, if any of the character arcs have continued or ended satisfactorily. Look at what Blizzard intends with its writing, and then compare to what they convey with it. Calling out shit for what it is isn't a character flaw. It isn't the sign of a "cultist". It's the sign of the opposite.

Someone who realizes that a beloved franchise will not maintain quality over the years, and genuinely just isn't worth sticking with by the end if it goes to shit.

People liked Warcraft 3 because it knew how to tell a simple story, and tell it at a reasonable pace. Blizzard acts like they don't even know why anyone ever liked Grom Hellscream, and assume it's just because he was a badass. Warchief Hellscream for WoD was such a laughable concept, because I knew who Grom was. I have watched these apes drag Grom's corpse from the closet and shoved their hands elbow deep up his rotten asshole to live out false-nostalgia, for a version of the past that never existed and should never exist.

[Biomega]

The main problem is that Blizzard continues to be obsessed with the origins of Warcraft as being "Orcs and Humans". Everyone else is just side characters, pretty much. There's been more Sylvanas vs. Tyrande lately, but in the grand scheme of things it always comes back to OvH. Bringing back Thrall and making Saurfang the center of the anti-Sylvanas sentiment is just an extension of that, and on the Alliance side it's been pretty egregious anyway with Anduin "Golen Plot Armor Child" Wrynn being at the center of virtually everything (aside from the little Tyrande stint that's hot right now).

That focus necessarily narrows the dimensions the lore dips into. Instead of exploring a diversity inherent in the cooperation of so many races, it's all reduced to an us vs. them mentality - even within factions. It's why the Horde has been plagued with the whole "MUH HONNNAAHHHHH!" BS for who knows how many expansions now, and why the Alliance has as much personality as an animated paper clip.

But in the end, it all comes fundamentally down to one problem, a problem that's been plaguing entertainment media for many years now: never taking chances. Play the true and trusted out to its umpteenth iteration, because we know it sells. Rather than risk something that - gods save us all - might actually be radical or innovative, let us recycle endlessly with minor variations.

[Mehrunes]

Personaly, I blame the young generation. No seriously, nothing positive has been said about anything since they were able to hit on a keyboard. Star Trek is shit, Star Wars is shit, Warcraft is shit, Game of Thrones is shit, everything is shit. And everyone seems convinced that because they like something that they have a right to have what they want. If a story does not go the way they want, if their favorite character is shown in a different light, if their favorite race receives the hard end of the stick, the story is shit. Maybe they should remember to simply be fans and stop being idolaters and cultists.

That's mighty fucking weird because earlier seasons of GoT were praised. Rogue One also got plenty of praise despite being Star Wars. People are hopeful about the Old Republic trilogy.

What if the reason newer Star Trek is criticized is because it went the more action-oriented route like Star Wars instead of being more a philosophical sci-fi it used to be? What if the reason Star Wars is criticized is because of piss-poor character development in EP VII (including for new characters that no one knew yet, robbing you of the "people just didn't like the direction their favorite character went lel" projection in that case) and EP VIII abandoning plot points established by EP VII for the sake of "subverting expectation", which ended up with the director getting axed? What if the reason later seasons of GoT are criticized is because the moment Dipshit & Dumbfuck ran out of GRRM's source material their story collapsed AND then they rushed the shit out of it on top of that because they got bored of making it and wanted to bail out to their incoming Star Wars trilogy (luckily not the OR one), even though HBO offered them more episodes and even more seasons to flesh out the story? What if Warcraft gets criticized is because Blizzard keeps ignoring their own established lore and makes everyone act out like an idiot just to push their plot along?

Nah, must be just dem kids That are "idolaters and cultists" (seriously, I don't even...)

[Yroxcruk]

Imo, Blizzard is awesome at world building, and they really know how to properly add more content to their own worlds or expand it.

However, they are pretty bad at writting, they have a good amount of plot points that they could use for futures stories, they just don't know how to use them so we end up with a big mess.

At the same time, people don't really care, just look at Arthas or Wotlk, that guy didn't do shit during the expasion, just arrived to one place, summoned a foe that we all knew was going to die, said some edgy stuff and left just for his "grand plan" which was just to kill the strongest champions that fought him, that was it, then again we also have Deathwing, did the exact same shit trying to destroy the whole world when he could've just gone to deepholme and do it then but nah he just decided to dick around, and when he noticed it was starting to look bad for him, it was too late to do anything.

So yea, blizzard is good at world building, but bad at writting.

[Frontenac]

That's mighty fucking weird because earlier seasons of GoT were praised. Rogue One also got plenty of praise despite being Star Wars. People are hopeful about the Old Republic trilogy.

What if the reason newer Star Trek is criticized is because it went the more action-oriented route like Star Wars instead of being more a philosophical sci-fi it used to be? What if the reason Star Wars is criticized is because of piss-poor character development in EP VII (including for new characters that no one knew yet, robbing you of the "people just didn't like the direction their favorite character went lel" projection in that case) and EP VIII abandoning plot points established by EP VII for the sake of "subverting expectation", which ended up with the director getting axed? What if the reason later seasons of GoT are criticized is because the moment Dipshit & Dumbfuck ran out of GRRM's source material their story collapsed AND then they rushed the shit out of it on top of that because they got bored of making it and wanted to bail out to their incoming Star Wars trilogy (luckily not the OR one), even though HBO offered them more episodes and even more seasons to flesh out the story? What if Warcraft gets criticized is because Blizzard keeps ignoring their own established lore and makes everyone act out like an idiot just to push their plot along?

Nah, must be just dem kids That are "idolaters and cultists" (seriously, I don't even...)

I'm sorry, but with people devoting entire rooms to their favorite franchise, with the amount of money and time spent on it, the apparition of religious terms like "canon" and of people posing as guardians of orthodoxy (you're not a true fan of X if you like Y), the words "idolaters" and "cultists" are spot on.

Look, I'm not saying that everything in those franchises is good. But the way they are systematically labeled as "crap" is just ridiculous. Yes, I admit, Rogue One is the exception to the rule. As for The Old Republic trilogy, it is blessed by the fact that it has not been made yet. But rest assured: it will get panned and nitpicked. Not by the critics (well, maybe) but first and foremost by the fans, because it is bound to have changes in the translation from video game to movie. And the "cultists" hate change. I tremble just thinking about what will be the reaction to "Dune"... You speak of Game of Thrones? The fans of ASoIaF started to complain about the show as soon as there was some changes, which means as soon as season 3. Of course, it only got worse when they were out of written material. It was not much about the pacing of the story (which I will admit was not great in later seasons), but really about "muh Lady Stoneheart", "muh Stannis", "muh Aegon/Young Griff", etc.

As for Warcraft, its "lore" has always been inconsistent, from Warcraft 1 to this day. In fact, I believe BoA is a little above average in this regard.

But I apologize to the millenials for my harsh words. I will not remove them, but they are unfortunately also true for older people as well. It was wrong of me to single you out like that.

[KrakHed]

I'm sorry, but with people devoting entire rooms to their favorite franchise, with the amount of money and time spent on it, the apparition of religious terms like "canon" and of people posing as guardians of orthodoxy (you're not a true fan of X if you like Y), the words "idolaters" and "cultists" are spot on.

Look, I'm not saying that everything in those franchises is good. But the way they are systematically labeled as "crap" is just ridiculous. Yes, I admit, Rogue One is the exception to the rule. As for The Old Republic trilogy, it is blessed by the fact that it has not been made yet. But rest assured: it will get panned and nitpicked. Not by the critics (well, maybe) but first and foremost by the fans, because it is bound to have changes in the translation from video game to movie. And the "cultists" hate change. I tremble just thinking about what will be the reaction to "Dune"... You speak of Game of Thrones? The fans of ASoIaF started to complain about the show as soon as there was some changes, which means as soon as season 3. Of course, it only got worse when they were out of written material. It was not much about the pacing of the story (which I will admit was not great in later seasons), but really about "muh Lady Stoneheart", "muh Stannis", "muh Aegon/Young Griff", etc.

As for Warcraft, its "lore" has always been inconsistent, from Warcraft 1 to this day. In fact, I believe BoA is a little above average in this regard.

But I apologize to the millenials for my harsh words. I will not remove them, but they are unfortunately also true for older people as well. It was wrong of me to single you out like that.

You sound like you huff your own farts.

Infracted.

[Frontenac]

You sound like you huff your own farts.

Like anybody with a nose. It can't be helped. You however sound like the same stuff gets ejected out of your mouth whether you speak or vomit. Next time, say something useful.

Infracted.

[ohwell]

lich king had the best lore written wise and everything was evolving around getting to defeat the lich king. after lich king ended blizzard just started rushing way too much on every expansion. chris metzen did a really nice job on evolving the story. when he was working there. chris was a genius at his job. i miss that guy.

Except when he mouthed off on Twitter and Blizzcon about things that he was completely wrong and it became clear he wasn't as involved as you think. Metzen did more damage to the lore than anyone else because he thought he was a Tony Stark doppleganger when he was in fact just a nerd with no life.

[KrakHed]

Like anybody with a nose. It can't be helped. You however sound like the same stuff gets ejected out of your mouth whether you speak or vomit. Next time, say something useful.

Yes, I do vomit quite lovely words. Should I have called you a pompous tool? The word "canon" for literary works has been used since before you were ever born, my ever so enlightened friend.

Sometimes, when someone dislikes changes, it's a sign of discerning taste. Is it wrong to voice your concern about changes that you feel bring down the work, or must people mindlessly worship at the altar to not be "cultists"? People have voiced many specifics of what they do not like about certain products, as is their right.

Judged purely on its own merit, with no reference to prior stories, BFA is only mildly more tolerable. It is better than prior WoW stories in terms of overall effort on the part of Blizz, but displays all the failings inherent to the MMO medium. The story has terrible pacing, can't keep track of itself, and has inconsistent tone. It's trying to tell a sort of story it's just not competent at.

Certain kinds of stories just don't work in certain mediums. BFA is not a good story for an MMO, and so fails in that environment. In general, I see a regular pattern of people applauding contained zone stories while condemning the overarching main plot. And the reasons are as I said.

Zone stories are contained and not stretched out over years and years, with only minuscule bits being released at a time. They are capable of telling a satisfying story from beginning to end without frustrating people. This makes perfect sense, considering that this is exactly what MMOs are actually good at. Blizzard should either drop their need to make main stories, and instead properly focus on building engaging world stories, or completely change the way they tell their main story so it doesn't leave people feeling bored and frustrated with its trite messages.

Warcraft 3 had a few things working to its advantage. It was simple and knew what it was, and was sufficiently small that it didn't contradict itself or muddle its message. As an RTS game, you could play through the story at your own pace and reach a satisfying conclusion. And while it went through many changes in development, not all of them for the best perhaps, it was still a mostly complete product that didn't fumble its themes.

WoW's main story pacing is much too glacial to tell an internally consistent or well-built story, as it will change hands between far too many writers along the way.

[Kokolums]

Writing is actually VERY simple:

Create interesting characters and torture them for 300 pages. Make sure the obstacles are worthy of your heroes' quest.

One HUGE problem they are having with the lore is they cannot create obstacles worthy of our quest. We mudstomp EVERYTHING. I think the pinnacle of SUCK in WoW storytelling was the Sargeras reveal late in Legion. He pokes out of the cloud, screams and whines like a baby, gets drawn backwards, cannot even HIT the spaceship zooming by and gets shrunk down and jailed with Illidan as his jailor. That SUCKED. It completely SUCKED. THAT was our FIRST cinematic of Sargeras. So now, THAT defines him. And he is defined NOT as powerful and awe-inspiring but a crying baby that is no threat and jailed like a puny wimp. The bottom line: Sargeras is NOT worthy of our quest. Collectively, we are VASTLY more powerful than he is. That's what we are SHOWN in a cinematic....and what we are SHOWN severely trumps anything we are TOLD or READ as backstory. Sargeras is defined as a wimp forever now. It SUCKS.

5 years from now, a kid might ask "who is Sargeras" and the first instinct will be to show a video. And the first video they see will almost assuredly be THAT cinematic. And that kid will say "Sargeras is shit". Great job, Blizz....

And Blizzard doesn't get it. They have NO idea how awful that cinematic was. I would FIRE whoever greenlighted that trash.

The other problem they are having is that they struggle to create interesting characters. Med'an was a TERRIBLE character and the fanbase recoiled to the point where they were forced to retcon him out of the entire story. Geya'rah is terrible. Gorak'tul is a zero. Bwonsamdi is a great character so they did do something right. Talanji is boring. Rastakhan is meh. Proudmoore politics is boring as hell. Korthek and Vorrik are almost completely unknown because they are so dull.

So they are making a LOT of boring characters and they refuse to give heroes a worthy quest. That's an outstanding blueprint for terrible fiction.

[owbu]

Two reasons I can think off are:

Blizzard is moving away from genres that they are comfortable with (space/fantasy operas) towards popular, more complex stories, but their inexperience is showing and the medium (MMOs) they are using isn't suitable for it.

And, thanks to new technologies, Shitstorming has become some kind of tool to get companies to do what you want.


Not that "this is the worst writing ever!" hasn't been a thing since cata at least.

[Soon-TM]

Certain kinds of stories just don't work in certain mediums. BFA is not a good story for an MMO, and so fails in that environment. In general, I see a regular pattern of people applauding contained zone stories while condemning the overarching main plot.

(...)

Warcraft 3 had a few things working to its advantage. It was simple and knew what it was, and was sufficiently small that it didn't contradict itself or muddle its message. As an RTS game, you could play through the story at your own pace and reach a satisfying conclusion. And while it went through many changes in development, not all of them for the best perhaps, it was still a mostly complete product that didn't fumble its themes.

That's what made e.g. the Vanilla world so interesting. Every zone had its little stories, which have always been quite enjoyable, and there were a few, memorable questlines that sprawled across several zones, and made the world feel more like... well, a world.

[Shadowferal]

Well, I thought the lore/history in the pen and paper game was consistent.



- - - Updated - - -

That's what made e.g. the Vanilla world so interesting. Every zone had its little stories, which have always been quite enjoyable, and there were a few, memorable questlines that sprawled across several zones, and made the world feel more like... well, a world.

Ya...I think they kinda lost it for Cata, but then found it for MoP. At least to me. MoP storyline was engrossing. (Those mantids had me)

[Zyky]

Christie Golden happened

Christie Golden was writing Warcraft Lore from back before WoW was even released, with some of the most beloved Lore and Books being from her with Rise of the Horde and Arthas, so you can't blame her for Blizzard fucking up epicly with the story going all over the place, which all started with the time/dimensional travel(that wasn't really dimensional travel because somehow Demons transcend reality, but Titans can't ???). The person you need to look at blaming is Alex Afrasiabi, because he'll random tweet stuff as canon(like demons transcending reality) and then the Lore team has to fix the shit he comes up with.

[KrakHed]

That's what made e.g. the Vanilla world so interesting. Every zone had its little stories, which have always been quite enjoyable, and there were a few, memorable questlines that sprawled across several zones, and made the world feel more like... well, a world.

Yeah, that's my opinion as well. I think shit actually started going downhill in TBC when they decided to start using major characters as raid fodder. Illidan and Kael'thas had lots of fans. People are still bitter about them dying. Malygos being killed off was also lame. It seems all too often the need to tell a bigger story just makes the world feel smaller.

I prefer small stories that don't erode or shrink the world.

Ya...I think they kinda lost it for Cata, but then found it for MoP. At least to me. MoP storyline was engrossing. (Those mantids had me)

Mantid were great. If you think about it, how many story complains do people have for Blizzard's smaller stories? The ones that aren't horrible hamfisted parody zones, that is. Some are lackluster, sure, but they don't piss people off.

[Shadowferal]

Kil'ruk gives you a strange glance.
The Klaxxi'va may never accept you fully. Their xenophobic minds are closed to the possibility of a useful nightelf.
I, for one, have been proud to fight by your side, druid. Your presence, and your assistance, do us great honor.

Wakener, your deeds have earned you the trust of the Klaxxi.



Kil'ruk heads for the door of Klaxxi'vess at a brisk pace.

You are to be rewarded. Walk with me.

We mantid are an elder race. The pandaren you associate with - they are but children. They have their role to play.

Kil'ruk reaches the door to the lower level and opens it, continuing the monologue while walking the path.

Each cycle, our young swarm their walls. The pandaren slay the weak. The strong return.
With each generation, we grow ever stronger.
Before your history began, our empire was vast. We shared this world with our sister kingdoms, Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-Nerub. Our Gods were many, and powerful. We mantid worshipped the seven heads of Y'shaarj. Great was the Old One, and terrible was His wrath. He consumed hope and begat despair; He inhaled courage and breathed fear. When the usurpers came - the ones you call "Titans" - Y'shaarj was destroyed. His last terrible breath has haunted this land ever since, but the shadows he left behind are mere whispers of his former glory.
I tell you now, because you have earned this warning; Your gods are not your gods, outsider. If the Old Ones ever return, we mantid will once again stand by their side.
The wisest among you will do the same.

--------------------

omg yes....

[Kokolums]

Back in war3, the writers could spin a tale about an enchanted sword frozen in ice and how it corrupts a price. The mysteries behind the blade were compelling. If they wrote that story today it would be meaningless in the face of universe sized threats and overpowered heroes to match them. Any number of modern wow heroes would be expected to break such a blade with ease.

The powerlevels of the heroes and villains are too high and it suffocates storytelling. The defias storyline is still unfinished but does a story about a workers revolt fit into the modern narrative? No it does not unless you tie them to the void or old gods which is stupid and insulting.

[Beloren]

Back in war3, the writers could spin a tale about an enchanted sword frozen in ice and how it corrupts a price. The mysteries behind the blade were compelling. If they wrote that story today it would be meaningless in the face of universe sized threats and overpowered heroes to match them. Any number of modern wow heroes would be expected to break such a blade with ease.

The powerlevels of the heroes and villains are too high and it suffocates storytelling. The defias storyline is still unfinished but does a story about a workers revolt fit into the modern narrative? No it does not unless you tie them to the void or old gods which is stupid and insulting.

This is really why they should leave the epic stories like the Cata and Legion for new games - a separate single player style series ... and wow deals with things like MoP and WoD, BFA too - where they can focus on the stories properly.

With the huge games doing the story, wow can have the aftermath with the wipe ups and setting up some new threats to come too. but largely exploring stuff and giving us race progress - there aws a really good post about this in the EU forums a while back.

[Feanoro]

Their stories were always cheesy and derivative (or flat out stolen), but in classic WoW they focused on world building and small stories that make it feel alive. Then with BC and ramped up in Wrath and beyond, all that increasingly faded away in favor of the big overarching soap opera. The fact that the soap opera routinely ignores the rules of the setting if inconvenient is a massive problem too.

[pewpmeiser]

The stories are fine -- the vocal community online is what's wrong